586 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

Destroyed it, Rather the whole galaxy dead, then TIM playing boss.

[Inverness Moon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't think placing TIM as worse than the Reapers can be called metagaming, Inverse.

The reapers have perpetuated a cycle of extinction for tens of millions of years with hundreds of trillions in casualties at the very least. Based on what we know they will probably continue that cycle for an indefinite amount of time. The idea that TIM could in any way come close to that based on past or possible future actions is ludicrous with any sane interpretation of his character.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fixers0 wrote...

Destroyed it, Rather the whole galaxy dead, then TIM playing boss.

This is incredibly immoral and ethically disgusting.

You can fight and overthrow tyrannical regimes (which TIM has never been in a position to enforce). Balances of power come and go regardless. All politics are transitory: what a cabal begins, another cabal can end.

But genocide? Genocide is a far worse crime, and it is permanent. Not just the genocide of this galaxy, and of the trillions of Aliens that TIM's never given any indication of wanting to kill: but every successive cycle of civilization that the Reapers, with their re-designed cycle, will wipe out.

[Fixers0]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Destroyed it, Rather the whole galaxy dead, then TIM playing boss.

This is incredibly immoral and ethically disgusting.

You can fight and overthrow tyrannical regimes (which TIM has never been in a position to enforce). Balances of power come and go regardless. All politics are transitory: what a cabal begins, another cabal can end.

But genocide? Genocide is a far worse crime, and it is permanent. Not just the genocide of this galaxy, and of the trillions of Aliens that TIM's never given any indication of wanting to kill: but every successive cycle of civilization that the Reapers, with their re-designed cycle, will wipe out.

As far as i know, and this  also happens in realitiy, Taking down the Leader of Terrorist Cells, is far more importent then stopping the Real mass murders.

[Encarmine]

None of it matters, this entire decision will have about as much impact as choose Udina or Anderson, which is fine by me.



Why is this even still a debate, if anyone reading this doesnt have a playthrough of 'base kept' and another playthrough of 'base destroyed' your a F*&king Idiot.



To discuss the pure moral aspect of it is also out of key... shall we discuss the morality of a Jedi Mind Trick, is that a paragon or renegade thing to do?? does anyone care? why ? its a POINTLESS topic.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fixers0 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Destroyed it, Rather the whole galaxy dead, then TIM playing boss.

This is incredibly immoral and ethically disgusting.

You can fight and overthrow tyrannical regimes (which TIM has never been in a position to enforce). Balances of power come and go regardless. All politics are transitory: what a cabal begins, another cabal can end.

But genocide? Genocide is a far worse crime, and it is permanent. Not just the genocide of this galaxy, and of the trillions of Aliens that TIM's never given any indication of wanting to kill: but every successive cycle of civilization that the Reapers, with their re-designed cycle, will wipe out.

As far as i know, and this  also happens in realitiy, Taking down the Leader of Terrorist Cells, is far more importent then stopping the Real mass murders.

Said mass-murderers having the intent, will, and capabilities to kill all of humanity?

Uh, yeah. No. This has not happened in reality.

[Fixers0]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Destroyed it, Rather the whole galaxy dead, then TIM playing boss.

This is incredibly immoral and ethically disgusting.

You can fight and overthrow tyrannical regimes (which TIM has never been in a position to enforce). Balances of power come and go regardless. All politics are transitory: what a cabal begins, another cabal can end.

But genocide? Genocide is a far worse crime, and it is permanent. Not just the genocide of this galaxy, and of the trillions of Aliens that TIM's never given any indication of wanting to kill: but every successive cycle of civilization that the Reapers, with their re-designed cycle, will wipe out.

As far as i know, and this  also happens in realitiy, Taking down the Leader of Terrorist Cells, is far more importent then stopping the Real mass murders.

Said mass-murderers having the intent, will, and capabilities to kill all of humanity?

Uh, yeah. No. This has not happened in reality.

Whatever ,I'm a supporter of the War On Terror and i Despise TIM and his buch of pathetic followers much more then a group of Reapers somewhere in dark space.

Besides the Real Mass Murders are still out there and nobody has done something against them.

[Inverness Moon]

Fixers0 wrote...

Whatever ,I'm a supporter of the War On Terror and i Despise TIM and his buch of pathetic followers much more then a group of Reapers somewhere in dark space.

Besides the Real Mass Murders are still out there and nobody has done something against them.

You obviously don't believe the reapers are a real threat then, go join up with the Council and the Alliance in their let's-all-deny-reality club. 

[Arijharn]

Fixers, with that sort of thinking you should sit at the feet of the Turian councillor and shine his shoes.

[Fixers0]

Arijharn wrote...

Fixers, with that sort of thinking you should sit at the feet of the Turian councillor and shine his shoes.

Sorry, he's dead.

Besides, it is true that in our current realitiy not really happens against the Real criminals

[Omnicrat]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

In my oppinion, how a people survive is more important then if they survive.  Extinction in this cycle (set up some prothean-esq way of helping out the next guys) is preferable to tyrany at the hands of TIM in my book.

That is the ultimate fool's decision.

There is no guarantee that you can do anything to anything to "help out the next guys" that the reapers won't discover and destroy. They're not going to make the same mistakes they did before. For you to risk allowing the cycle to continue for millions of years is beyond idiocy.

But more importantly, it's absurd for you to think that extinction and allowing the cycle to continue is better than rule under TIM. Even if TIM did conquer the galaxy or something (which is out of character for TIM), it's silly to assume he couldn't be overthrown or something. You're making some pretty and ridiculous assumptions here.

If anyone thinks that Cerberus is more of a threat than the reapers in anyway, then they're just meta-gaming.

Not meta-gaming at all.  If I give Cerberus the vital tech used to over-power the Reapers, Cerberus becomes the most powerful force in the galaxy.  Definitly more powerful then the Reapers were, as they just killed the Reapers.  So, yeah, at that point Cerberus > Reaper.  If we can stop Cerberus after that, we could have stopped the Reapers without the station.

Also, Tim wouldn't be emperor in the sense that he has a crown and a thrown, but are you telling me he wouldn't be the behind-the-sceans head of a new Human-controled Galactic government with all that power letting him do just that?

On another note, accepting death befor tyrany is a vailid philosophical choice -insert founding father quote here-.  If there is no hole to exploit (which is highly unlikely, given we know they are comming, they cannot isolate us as they have every other time, and we know how they find hidden hold-outs) then it is probably that someone will stop them befor the heat-death of the Universe, and I can only hope they are not tyranical, but that is the price I gladly pay.

[Sandbox47]

I like the idea of genocide. I'll destroy the base to give the Reapers some more space to do the killing until Shepard finishes them off. Or I could say that they're in the wrong galaxy. How will they know the difference after 50k years of dark space.

Anyways, the base is gone. And so is Jacob. (was too simple. simply had to make him the umbrella)

[Omnicrat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't think placing TIM as worse than the Reapers can be called metagaming, Inverse.

I think he meant something to the affect of, "You're only saying that because you know you can stop the Reapers and you don't know if you can stop Tim."

[Arijharn]

Fixers0 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Fixers, with that sort of thinking you should sit at the feet of the Turian councillor and shine his shoes.

Sorry, he's dead.

Besides, it is true that in our current realitiy not really happens against the Real criminals

You have heard of the concept of cutting off the head of the snake while striking at their material assets, effectively destroying their ability to actually wage war right? How do you fight an ideal?

[Encarmine]

war on terror? you mean that United States response to a terrorist attack funded by Pakistan, led by man from Saudi Arabia, who in turn got another group of men, from Yeman, Egypt and Saudi Arabia to Hijack planes. And then the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, but ignored terrorist training camps in central africa, north africa, the U.A.E., Pakistan. And then randomly invaded Iraq, probly the only country in the area NOT having anything to do with ol Bin Laden.



I think thats actully the 'New American Century' your talking about, dont let them try and sell this War on Terror **** to you. The USA happily funded the IRA for years...

[Omnicrat]

Encarmine wrote...

None of it matters, this entire decision will have about as much impact as choose Udina or Anderson, which is fine by me.

Why is this even still a debate, if anyone reading this doesnt have a playthrough of 'base kept' and another playthrough of 'base destroyed' your a F*&king Idiot.

To discuss the pure moral aspect of it is also out of key... shall we discuss the morality of a Jedi Mind Trick, is that a paragon or renegade thing to do?? does anyone care? why ? its a POINTLESS topic.

I care about that.  I would call it renegade because it subverts free-will.  Then again, I care about stories and not just "will the dialogue be greatly affected by this dissision or not."

[Inverness Moon]

Omnicrat wrote...

Not meta-gaming at all.  If I give Cerberus the vital tech used to over-power the Reapers, Cerberus becomes the most powerful force in the galaxy.  Definitly more powerful then the Reapers were, as they just killed the Reapers.  So, yeah, at that point Cerberus > Reaper.  If we can stop Cerberus after that, we could have stopped the Reapers without the station.

It's ridiculous to say that Cerberus, a group of 150 people, can destroy the reapers alone using tech from the collector base which at most would only be as powerful as what the reapers already have. Cerberus doesn't have nearly enough manpower to do what you're suggesting even if they get more advanced technology. The only sensible way for this to all turn out is that Cerberus covertly introduces new technology from the collector base to the Alliance which upgrades its fleets so that they can stand a chance against the reapers. Even that would not guarantee victory, only increase our chances against the reapers.

Don't assume the collector base is some magic godsend that will simultaneously destroy the reapers and propel Cerberus into leadership of the galaxy. That is ridiculous.

Omnicrat wrote...

Also, Tim wouldn't be emperor in the sense that he has a crown and a thrown, but are you telling me he wouldn't be the behind-the-sceans head of a new Human-controled Galactic government with all that power letting him do just that?

Why would he? If such a thing ever happened, I don't see why he wouldn't continue to run Cerberus as he has been doing. Why exactly should TIM be interested in running the galaxy? Personally I think hes just fine where he is. He certainly has a nicer office than those belonging to the Council I'm sure.

When people come up with stuff like this they just seem to think TIM wants ton conquer the galaxy because that is what people that aren't the good guys want to do.

Either way, I don't accept the premise that Cerberus could gain control of the galaxy in any way.

Omnicrat wrote...

On another note, accepting death befor tyrany is a vailid philosophical choice -insert founding father quote here-.  If there is no hole to exploit (which is highly unlikely, given we know they are comming, they cannot isolate us as they have every other time, and we know how they find hidden hold-outs) then it is probably that someone will stop them befor the heat-death of the Universe, and I can only hope they are not tyranical, but that is the price I gladly pay.

That person was speaking about their own personal decisions. If you want to kill yourself rather than try to defeat TIM, fine, that is your business. However, you don't get to make the decision for everyone in the galaxy and the races that will be destroyed by the reapers in the future because you gave up.

In my opinion that wouldn't make you much different from Saren who gave up the fight against the reapers before it even begun because he didn't like the odds.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 17 janvier 2011 - 01:47 .

[gloops]

Extinction in this cycle (set up some prothean-esq way of helping out the next guys) is preferable to tyrany at the hands of TIM in my book.

So you're willing to increase the chances of galactic extinction just because you're afraid of TIM ruling the galaxy? That's a little selfish and shortsighted.

Not meta-gaming at all. If I give Cerberus the vital tech used to over-power the Reapers, Cerberus becomes the most powerful force in the galaxy. Definitly more powerful then the Reapers were, as they just killed the Reapers. So, yeah, at that point Cerberus > Reaper. If we can stop Cerberus after that, we could have stopped the Reapers without the station.

Yeah, no. Whether you keep the base or not, the fight is inevitably going to come down to a battle between the galaxy and the Reapers. Given that this is the case, the potential goodies extracted from the Collector base will be shared amongst those fighting the Reapers. Cerberus ain't toppling the Reapers by themselves in any world, Collector base or no Collector base

[Omnicrat]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

Not meta-gaming at all.  If I give Cerberus the vital tech used to over-power the Reapers, Cerberus becomes the most powerful force in the galaxy.  Definitly more powerful then the Reapers were, as they just killed the Reapers.  So, yeah, at that point Cerberus > Reaper.  If we can stop Cerberus after that, we could have stopped the Reapers without the station.

It's ridiculous to say that Cerberus, a group of 150 people, can destroy the reapers alone using tech from the collector base which at most would only be as powerful as what the reapers already have. Cerberus doesn't have nearly enough manpower to do what you're suggesting even if they get more advanced technology. The only sensible way for this to all turn out is that Cerberus covertly introduces new technology from the collector base to the Alliance which upgrades its fleets so that they can stand a chance against the reapers. Even that would not guarantee victory, only increase our chances against the reapers.

Don't assume the collector base is some magic godsend that will simultaneously destroy the reapers and propel Cerberus into leadership of the galaxy. That is ridiculous.

Omnicrat wrote...

Also, Tim wouldn't be emperor in the sense that he has a crown and a thrown, but are you telling me he wouldn't be the behind-the-sceans head of a new Human-controled Galactic government with all that power letting him do just that?

Why would he? If such a thing ever happened, I don't see why he wouldn't continue to run Cerberus as he has been doing. Why exactly should TIM be interested in running the galaxy? Personally I think hes just fine where he is. He certainly has a nicer office than those belonging to the Council I'm sure.

When people come up with stuff like this they just seem to think TIM wants ton conquer the galaxy because that is what people that aren't the good guys want to do.

Either way, I don't accept the premise that Cerberus could gain control of the galaxy in any way.

Omnicrat wrote...

On another note, accepting death befor tyrany is a vailid philosophical choice -insert founding father quote here-.  If there is no hole to exploit (which is highly unlikely, given we know they are comming, they cannot isolate us as they have every other time, and we know how they find hidden hold-outs) then it is probably that someone will stop them befor the heat-death of the Universe, and I can only hope they are not tyranical, but that is the price I gladly pay.

That person was speaking about their own personal decisions. If you want to kill yourself rather than try to defeat TIM, fine, that is your business. However, you don't get to make the decision for everyone in the galaxy and the races that will be destroyed by the reapers in the future because you gave up.

In my opinion that wouldn't make you much different from Saren who gave up the fight against the reapers before it even begun because he didn't like the odds.

1)  If they did that (give the alliance the tech), you don't think they could then use the whole, comming to the rescue to get political clout?  Bribe/blacmail/convert/elect enough officials and, hey,  Cerberus controles the most powerful fleet in the galaxy!  But wait, you say nearly all the officials they would have needed to bribe/blackmail/convert were on Earth?  What else?, most died in the Reaper invasion?  So, really, Cerberus just has to present itself with tech upgrades to get direct controle of the entire fleet AND look like saviours at the same time?  Huh.  Whoda thunk it.  But its not just the most powerful fleet they get as a prize, oh no, its also the one we could never have defeated the Reapers without.  The one with the tech to kick every one elses collective asses.  Yeah, that human supremisist with massive influence would never try and set up some time of human supremisit Utopia with his new found fleet.  That would be assinine.

note:  I'm looking at this as if we survive, because if we do not (even with compromising what we [well, what I] an fighting for), it didn't matter one way or the other.

2)  He doesn't want to conquer the galaxy per-say, he wants a galaxy that is best for humans (as he sees it).  Given the opportunity to elevate humans to a dominant roll (so that no one else can take advantage of us) why would he, someone who has voiced a great desire to secure humanity's place in the galaxy, not do so?

3a)  I more meant the sacrifice liberty for security bit, but I know of some more that would also work (includeing that one), so I just left it up to your immagination.  Anyway, it is still a philisophically sound possition and it still comes down to my choice.  I can live with my choice.  From my prespective you just made the (wrong) choice of giving a human-supremisist the tools to conquer the galaxy if we survive.  You made the choice of oppression over destruction for the same number of people I made the choice of destruction over opression for.  Why is my choice invalidated by this if your choice is valid?

3b)  This dissision is the opposite of Sarens.  He thought survival by any means (which is much closer to what you are saying) is preferable to genocide.  I think that how one survie means more then if they survive.

[Omnicrat]

gloops wrote...

Extinction in this cycle (set up some prothean-esq way of helping out the next guys) is preferable to tyrany at the hands of TIM in my book.

So you're willing to increase the chances of galactic extinction just because you're afraid of TIM ruling the galaxy? That's a little selfish and shortsighted.

Not meta-gaming at all. If I give Cerberus the vital tech used to over-power the Reapers, Cerberus becomes the most powerful force in the galaxy. Definitly more powerful then the Reapers were, as they just killed the Reapers. So, yeah, at that point Cerberus > Reaper. If we can stop Cerberus after that, we could have stopped the Reapers without the station.

Yeah, no. Whether you keep the base or not, the fight is inevitably going to come down to a battle between the galaxy and the Reapers. Given that this is the case, the potential goodies extracted from the Collector base will be shared amongst those fighting the Reapers. Cerberus ain't toppling the Reapers by themselves in any world, Collector base or no Collector base

1)  philosophically sound point:  how one survies is more important then that they survive.

2)  No, but does Cerberus seem like the sharing type?  Espetially if they think it is unseeisary to share with non-humans?

[Fromyou]

I destroyed it because i don't trust the Illusive Man, but on my next play through I'm going to keep it because of all that technology and the prize

[Barquiel]

I destroyed the base.

If there was an option to give the base to the council, I'd keep it. But as the only option is to hand it to the evil racist megalomaniac...

[Dean_the_Young]

Xeno-nationalist.



Emphasis on the nationalist. Just like every other species-based government in the Citadel Council system.



TIM has never demonstrated, given, or implied a belief of human innate superiority on the basis of being human. Neither has anyone else in Cerberus.

[RAF1940]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

Not meta-gaming at all.  If I give Cerberus the vital tech used to over-power the Reapers, Cerberus becomes the most powerful force in the galaxy.  Definitly more powerful then the Reapers were, as they just killed the Reapers.  So, yeah, at that point Cerberus > Reaper.  If we can stop Cerberus after that, we could have stopped the Reapers without the station.

It's ridiculous to say that Cerberus, a group of 150 people, can destroy the reapers alone using tech from the collector base which at most would only be as powerful as what the reapers already have. Cerberus doesn't have nearly enough manpower to do what you're suggesting even if they get more advanced technology. The only sensible way for this to all turn out is that Cerberus covertly introduces new technology from the collector base to the Alliance which upgrades its fleets so that they can stand a chance against the reapers. Even that would not guarantee victory, only increase our chances against the reapers.

Don't assume the collector base is some magic godsend that will simultaneously destroy the reapers and propel Cerberus into leadership of the galaxy. That is ridiculous.

I agree.

[Pedro Costa]

My Sole Survivor kept it. She saw too much death already, if there is a chance to save lives, she'll take it.

My War Hero destroyed it. He's a bloody war hero, he always finds a way.



If you're asking me, as a player, I can see both cons and pros to keep/destroy it, therefore, I let my Shep's psych profile determine it.