586 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

james1976 wrote...

Well from my Paragon's standpoint, destroying the Collector base and denying Cerebus access to it was a two-fold win. It was destroying an abomination of evil and preventing an people like TIM from using the horrors in which where trying to destroy all organic life in the first place. Better to stand on your beliefs in the face of all odds.

And people accuse the Renegade's of being morally reprehensible!
Bravo though, damn those Asari, those Turians, Salarians, Batarians, Elcor, Raloi, Hanar, Drell, Krogan, Vorcha, Quarians and Humanity to extinction just to massage your own ego! And that's just the species we know about. Way to take a stand!

[Arijharn]

Vaenier wrote...

Paragons should keep the base too, if for nothing else than destroying it after the Council can get a look. This is the first piece of evidence the game actually lets you collect. Here the game does not continue the horrible railroading with the stupidity of everyone that could possibly help you. Without the base, you are exactly where you were when you died, nowhere at all. Nobody believes you, nobody wants to help you, nobody cares about your crazy delusions. With the base you can atleast shove it in the councils faces and get them to help.

I'm actually not so convinced about this; all the base does is prove to them that the Collector's exist, not that the Reapers exist. At the most; it might make them change their minds about the origins of Sovereign before they realise "Hey, Sovereign and the Human-Reaper look nothing alike!"

[Vaenier]

Arijharn wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Paragons should keep the base too, if for nothing else than destroying it after the Council can get a look. This is the first piece of evidence the game actually lets you collect. Here the game does not continue the horrible railroading with the stupidity of everyone that could possibly help you. Without the base, you are exactly where you were when you died, nowhere at all. Nobody believes you, nobody wants to help you, nobody cares about your crazy delusions. With the base you can atleast shove it in the councils faces and get them to help.

I'm actually not so convinced about this; all the base does is prove to them that the Collector's exist, not that the Reapers exist. At the most; it might make them change their minds about the origins of Sovereign before they realise "Hey, Sovereign and the Human-Reaper look nothing alike!"

They are not that stupid to base it on outward apperance... Come on. I know Biowares writing has made them into complete morons that are incapable of wiping their own asses, but judging technology based solely on outward apperance... give me a break.

You do not know what information is on the base. There could be access codes to the citadel systems, it could be data on relay construction, they have to build them somehwere after all. it could have blueprints of the citadel showing how it is infact a relay. There is no way to know without actually studying it. I am annoyed how many people act like the turian councilor. "Ah yes the possibility there might be useful information on that base, we have dismissed that claim" and blows up the base.

[Arijharn]

Alright, it might make them think there was an alliance between the Geth and the Collector's at some point, but I doubt it would make them sit up and say: "The Reapers do exist!"



And you don't need to convince me about the necessity of keeping the base, I do so for many reasons and I do on pretty much all my playthroughs, especially the ones where I play as if Shep is my avatar.

[RAF1940]

I have started a war......

[Interactive Civilian]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Metagaming is just one of the 2 big reasons you'd destroy the base, the other is being optimistic that you can beat them without it (i.e. not taking the Reapers as seriously)

Indoctrination could happen, but to run from a weapon the Reapers will surely use when they get here may not be the best idea... better to confront indoctrination in a controlled environment than during the chaos of war.

Well, I'm biased by the outside-the-game source, but "Mass Effect: Retribution" shows us how well that works out.

Though I hadn't read it when I first made my decision to destroy the base... honestly, at that time is was a spur of the moment, "Hell no, I'm not letting the Illusive Man get his hands on this" decision. Now, I use the dangers of working with such technology to justify my decision.
:innocent:

[Markinator_123]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Metagaming is just one of the 2 big reasons you'd destroy the base, the other is being optimistic that you can beat them without it (i.e. not taking the Reapers as seriously)

Indoctrination could happen, but to run from a weapon the Reapers will surely use when they get here may not be the best idea... better to confront indoctrination in a controlled environment than during the chaos of war.

Well, I'm biased by the outside-the-game source, but "Mass Effect: Retribution" shows us how well that works out.

Though I hadn't read it when I first made my decision to destroy the base... honestly, at that time is was a spur of the moment, "Hell no, I'm not letting the Illusive Man get his hands on this" decision. Now, I use the dangers of working with such technology to justify my decision.
:innocent:

Too bad you're using Reaper tech and Reaper tech was the reason you were successful in defeating the collectors or did you forget about that? OK Reaper tech is dangerous so do you have a big invention that everybody can use to defeat the Reapers or some kind of workable solution? I'm almost certain that you don't.

[Arijharn]

The way I see it, not using the Collector Base is illogical because you aren't fully able to connect a 'gameplan' to the end goal. You are taking too much on blind faith.

To me; here's the 'paragon' path:

1) The Reapers invade

2) We gain our allies

3) ??

4) We win.



We know current technological standards are not enough to breach Reaper defences. This is supported from the Siege of the Citadel (in which it required an exceptional event; namely Shephard to apparently do something to Sovereign's avatar) and we know this from EDI's statements, and there is no reason for her to lie to you.



Compared to the Renegade 'all your base belong to us'

1) Reapers invade

1a) Gain our allies

2) Create new technology based on weapon designs from the Collector Base

3) Utilize the increased technological base to effect on the Reapers

4) Win.



To me; that's a lot less unknown's and I was able to pad it out accordingly. What point is there in worrying about Cerberus tomorrow when the Reapers represent a clear existential threat today? Sure, take steps, but don't bury your head on either threat and don't cut off your nose to spite your face.



In this decision, the paragons sound almost as if they've taken a page out of the Jedi Council's book in regards to the war that Revan went to stop.

[Sajuro]

Arijharn wrote...

The way I see it, not using the Collector Base is illogical because you aren't fully able to connect a 'gameplan' to the end goal. You are taking too much on blind faith.
To me; here's the 'paragon' path:
1) The Reapers invade
2) We gain our allies
3)

4) we win
fixed

Modifié par Sajuro, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:18 .

[gloops]

2) No, but does Cerberus seem like the sharing type? Espetially if they think it is unseeisary to share with non-humans?

Cerberus recognizes the Reaper threat. Unless it's a group run by morons -- which I don't think it is -- then they're going to do what is necessary to defeat the Reapers. I don't understand the reasoning that Cerberus is just going to horde the technology just cuz they would.

[Encarmine]

My main shep has kept the base, but i have also blown it up in other playthroughs, so i cant loose.



Cerberus was the only organisation that had the vision to do what needed to be done.

Rebuilt a superior Normandy, dropped its anti-alian stance to allow a crack assault team to be formed. Built a superior A.I. in the form of EDI and voiced it by a hot blond chick who starred in Battlestar Galactica. They then spent almost its entire budget in having the cipher (commander shepard) rebuilt.



Cerberus has already saved the galaxy, most of you are too slow to relise it yet.



Paragons who go through the game throwing a moral tantrum about working for this organisation, are short sighted at best, childish jokes at best.



And all those other parts,

Rachni experiments to design non-human shock troops = good idea.

Biotic experiments to develope ultimate human biotics = good idea, shame it went rogue

Controlling the Geth = good idea, but TIM was partly to blame with his inpatience.



Without Cerberus, there would be no Shepard, most human colonies would be gone, and Earth harvested to complete the reapers new buddy, the human reaper, the entire galaxy would be destroyed. Nothing anyone can say, can remove that FACT.



'Cerberus will be ready' is a serious cool line once you have saved the base, and I know they will be exellent addition to the defence of the galaxy in ME3.

[RAF1940]

Encarmine wrote...

My main shep has kept the base, but i have also blown it up in other playthroughs, so i cant loose.

Cerberus was the only organisation that had the vision to do what needed to be done.
Rebuilt a superior Normandy, dropped its anti-alian stance to allow a crack assault team to be formed. Built a superior A.I. in the form of EDI and voiced it by a hot blond chick who starred in Battlestar Galactica. They then spent almost its entire budget in having the cipher (commander shepard) rebuilt.

Cerberus has already saved the galaxy, most of you are too slow to relise it yet.

Paragons who go through the game throwing a moral tantrum about working for this organisation, are short sighted at best, childish jokes at best.

And all those other parts,
Rachni experiments to design non-human shock troops = good idea.
Biotic experiments to develope ultimate human biotics = good idea, shame it went rogue
Controlling the Geth = good idea, but TIM was partly to blame with his inpatience.

Without Cerberus, there would be no Shepard, most human colonies would be gone, and Earth harvested to complete the reapers new buddy, the human reaper, the entire galaxy would be destroyed. Nothing anyone can say, can remove that FACT.

'Cerberus will be ready' is a serious cool line once you have saved the base, and I know they will be exellent addition to the defence of the galaxy in ME3.

These are some very good points.

[gloops]

Without Cerberus, there would be no Shepard, most human colonies would be gone, and Earth harvested to complete the reapers new buddy, the human reaper, the entire galaxy would be destroyed. Nothing anyone can say, can remove that FACT.

This is what I don't understand about the anti-Cerberus, pro-Alliance sentiments. People are willing to hand over the base to the Alliance, but at the end of the day who was there to fight the Reapers? Who was there to help humanity? Who was there to provide Shepard with the resources he needed?

[RAF1940]

gloops wrote...

Without Cerberus, there would be no Shepard, most human colonies would be gone, and Earth harvested to complete the reapers new buddy, the human reaper, the entire galaxy would be destroyed. Nothing anyone can say, can remove that FACT.

This is what I don't understand about the anti-Cerberus, pro-Alliance sentiments. People are willing to hand over the base to the Alliance, but at the end of the day who was there to fight the Reapers? Who was there to help humanity? Who was there to provide Shepard with the resources he needed?

I agree. The Alliance basically gave Shep the big F.U.

[Interactive Civilian]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Too bad you're using Reaper tech and Reaper tech was the reason you were successful in defeating the collectors or did you forget about that? OK Reaper tech is dangerous so do you have a big invention that everybody can use to defeat the Reapers or some kind of workable solution? I'm almost certain that you don't.

Working with technology derived from a dead and massively destroyed Reaper is not the same as working directly with still functioning Reaper technology. The Thanix Cannon came from studying the remains of Sovereign's weapons systems. I count it lucky that things were inert enough for the Turians to do so and replicate that type of weapon. EDI, on the other hand, is still risky. I don't doubt that it is partially due to her being based on stuff from Sovereign that she was infected with the virus from the Reaper IFF. I'm also now not entirely sure she is free from indoctrination. However, I do side with her and give her my provisional trust because she has saved the ship and crew. But, it is undeniable that she also has hidden protocols put in place by the Illusive Man and has been hacked by other Reaper technology at least once, so I could very well see her becoming a danger.

The Collector ship is most likely full of the technology for indoctrination (this is obvious from the plot of Retribution, and is a reasonable assumption in light of the game alone). The risk of working directly with such technology is too high. The risk of indoctrinated agents now working for the Reapers penetrating through Cerberus, with all of its resources, is way too high. Imagine if The Illusive Man were subtly indoctrinated and started systematically undermining everything within the web of Cerberus which could potentially help against the Reapers.

It is my opinion that handing over the Collector base to Cerberus, who has shown irresponsibility when dealing with dangerous tech and ideas numerous times, is insanely risky and runs a larger risk of causing the entire cause of fighting the reapers to come crashing down than destroying the base and removing such a risk.

Obviously, yes, my coming to this reasoning is a result of metagaming, having come from reading the books as well as having more time than a split second decision during playthrough to analyze the possibilities. But, it fits with the story, and it would fit with what Shepard (at least my own personal canon Shepard) knows about the Reapers and working with their technology.

[edit]
Sorry, missed the second question:

OK Reaper tech is dangerous so do you have a big invention that
everybody can use to defeat the Reapers or some kind of workable
solution? I'm almost certain that you don't.

Right now, even a workable solution with Collector tech. is pure imagination. Yes, I could imagine plots that have no basis in the "reality" of the game that would be workable solutions. For example, something in the newly discovered room in the Prothean ruins on Mars, or something tied to whatever is causing problems with the sun at Haestrom, or something tied to taking direct control of the Mass Relay network, or something tied to a completely imaginary as yet unrevealed discovery. It's not that hard to come up with workable solutions when you have few facts that MUST be followed to constrain you.

For example: Random and baseless fan-fic style solution to the Reaper problem: The Reapers somehow find a way in from Dark Space without using the Citadel Relay. Their first move is to take over the Mass Relays and ultimately take over the whole network so they can then reap the Galaxy bit by bit, as is their way. However, new discoveries in the Prothean ruins on Mars (or even better, a revisit to Ilos) gives you the information you need to control the entire Mass Relay network from the citadel and redirect traffic to any mass relay you choose. Using the discovered technology that is affecting the sun at Haestrom, you have a weapon that is capable of using dark energy to induce a star to instantly go supernova (how? out-of-my-arse-answer: uses a mass relay send a near planetary amount of element zero instantly into the heart of a sun. This combined with an intense dark energy field essentially causes a mini-big-bang effectively destroying and reforming that region of space-time... so a bit more than just a supernova). Use the fleets to draw the Reapers close to the Mass Relays and have the fleets jump clear by normal FTL. Use your control of the network to send all of the Reapers you can to a certain mass relay close enough to your target star. Initiate the SuperNova/BigBang and wipe out the bulk of the Reaper fleet. Stragglers are then taken out by the combined fleets of the Alliance, the Council Races, The Migrant Fleet, and any and all non-Council races that you manage to gather to your cause.

See? No Collector base needed. No risk of indoctrination causing massive sabotage to everything. It's easy to invent something if you put your mind to it.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:31 .

[RAF1940]

Sajuro wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

The way I see it, not using the Collector Base is illogical because you aren't fully able to connect a 'gameplan' to the end goal. You are taking too much on blind faith.
To me; here's the 'paragon' path:
1) The Reapers invade
2) We gain our allies
3)

4) we win
fixed

No, I don't know exactly who that is......

[Inverness Moon]

Omnicrat wrote...

1)  If they did that (give the alliance the tech), you don't think they could then use the whole, comming to the rescue to get political clout?  Bribe/blacmail/convert/elect enough officials and, hey,  Cerberus controles the most powerful fleet in the galaxy!  But wait, you say nearly all the officials they would have needed to bribe/blackmail/convert were on Earth?  What else?, most died in the Reaper invasion?  So, really, Cerberus just has to present itself with tech upgrades to get direct controle of the entire fleet AND look like saviours at the same time?  Huh.  Whoda thunk it.  But its not just the most powerful fleet they get as a prize, oh no, its also the one we could never have defeated the Reapers without.  The one with the tech to kick every one elses collective asses.  Yeah, that human supremisist with massive influence would never try and set up some time of human supremisit Utopia with his new found fleet.  That would be assinine.

note:  I'm looking at this as if we survive, because if we do not (even with compromising what we [well, what I] an fighting for), it didn't matter one way or the other.

Of course Cerberus would get a lot of positive rep IF they publicized their role in providing technology (and Shepard himself) to help defeat the reapers. But I don't see how this translates into them having control of the Alliance fleets at all.

Omnicrat wrote...

2)  He doesn't want to conquer the galaxy per-say, he wants a galaxy that is best for humans (as he sees it).  Given the opportunity to elevate humans to a dominant roll (so that no one else can take advantage of us) why would he, someone who has voiced a great desire to secure humanity's place in the galaxy, not do so?

A galaxy that is best for humans is one where we're the strongest, but everyone doesn't hate us. Trying to conquer the galaxy in any way or introduce some "human supremacist utopia" is counterproductive. TIM is not a fool.

Omnicrat wrote...

3a)  I more meant the sacrifice liberty for security bit, but I know of some more that would also work (includeing that one), so I just left it up to your immagination.  Anyway, it is still a philisophically sound possition and it still comes down to my choice.  I can live with my choice.  From my prespective you just made the (wrong) choice of giving a human-supremisist the tools to conquer the galaxy if we survive.  You made the choice of oppression over destruction for the same number of people I made the choice of destruction over opression for.  Why is my choice invalidated by this if your choice is valid?

Your choice doesn't make sense. You have nothing on which to base your claim that the collector base would allow TIM or anyone else to conquer the galaxy. I've already stated why that doesn't make sense in a previous post.

Omnicrat wrote...

3b)  This dissision is the opposite of Sarens.  He thought survival by any means (which is much closer to what you are saying) is preferable to genocide.  I think that how one survie means more then if they survive.

What your choice has in common with Saren's is that you both gave up before the fight even began.

I find it hilarious that some people are all gung-ho about fighting the galactic horrors known as the reapers, but when it comes to TIM they'd rather just kill themselves so they don't have to deal with it. That is nonsense and/or meta-gaming right there.

[Sajuro]

RAF1940 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

The way I see it, not using the Collector Base is illogical because you aren't fully able to connect a 'gameplan' to the end goal. You are taking too much on blind faith.
To me; here's the 'paragon' path:
1) The Reapers invade
2) We gain our allies
3)

4) we win
fixed

No, I don't know exactly who that is......

the Mecha Gurren Lagann, and if we need a bigger ship just use it to transform the Destiny Ascension into Destiny Gurren Lagann

[Interactive Civilian]

Wrong anime, but I don't care... I want that thing to yell "GEKIGAN FLAAAAAAAAARRRREEE!!! when it goes to take out a Reaper.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:54 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Metagaming is just one of the 2 big reasons you'd destroy the base, the other is being optimistic that you can beat them without it (i.e. not taking the Reapers as seriously)

Indoctrination could happen, but to run from a weapon the Reapers will surely use when they get here may not be the best idea... better to confront indoctrination in a controlled environment than during the chaos of war.

Well, I'm biased by the outside-the-game source, but "Mass Effect: Retribution" shows us how well that works out.

Though I hadn't read it when I first made my decision to destroy the base... honestly, at that time is was a spur of the moment, "Hell no, I'm not letting the Illusive Man get his hands on this" decision. Now, I use the dangers of working with such technology to justify my decision.
:innocent:

I understand the reasoning, but personally Retribution made me all the more glad I kept the base.  Indoctrination is no joke.. imagine that happening in a worse case scenario, a ship captain becomes exposed and reports to someone higher in the chain of command, he could infiltrate and destroy leadership without anyone even knowing... causing chaos and confusion in a time where we'd all want to know exactly what's going on.

[Omnicrat]

Arijharn wrote...

james1976 wrote...

Well from my Paragon's standpoint, destroying the Collector base and denying Cerebus access to it was a two-fold win. It was destroying an abomination of evil and preventing an people like TIM from using the horrors in which where trying to destroy all organic life in the first place. Better to stand on your beliefs in the face of all odds.

And people accuse the Renegade's of being morally reprehensible!
Bravo though, damn those Asari, those Turians, Salarians, Batarians, Elcor, Raloi, Hanar, Drell, Krogan, Vorcha, Quarians and Humanity to extinction just to massage your own ego! And that's just the species we know about. Way to take a stand!

Do not hand galaxy over to likly despot =/= maintain parego

[Sajuro]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Wrong anime, but I don't care... I want that thing to yell "GEKIGAN FLAAAAAAAAARRRREEE!!! when it goes to take out a Reaper.

better: GIGA...DRILL....BREEEAAAKERRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Omnicrat]

gloops wrote...

2) No, but does Cerberus seem like the sharing type? Espetially if they think it is unseeisary to share with non-humans?

Cerberus recognizes the Reaper threat. Unless it's a group run by morons -- which I don't think it is -- then they're going to do what is necessary to defeat the Reapers. I don't understand the reasoning that Cerberus is just going to horde the technology just cuz they would.

They do not horde the tech because they would horde the tech.  The horde the tech because this will give humanity the leg-up it needs to asert dominance.  If victory looked totaly impossible without sharing the data, that would be the first thing they did.  I'm not saying they are stupid.  I'm saying they are smart enough to know when they get delt a trupm card they know how to use it, and do not instead break character and go, "Golly gee, we'll give this tech to ANYONE fighting the Reapers, because humanity is a part of everyone and everyone needs to survive!"  Yeah.  I'm the one making flawed predictions about the logic of a terrorist organization willing to tack (almost) any advantage it can get.

[Omnicrat]

gloops wrote...

Without Cerberus, there would be no Shepard, most human colonies would be gone, and Earth harvested to complete the reapers new buddy, the human reaper, the entire galaxy would be destroyed. Nothing anyone can say, can remove that FACT.

This is what I don't understand about the anti-Cerberus, pro-Alliance sentiments. People are willing to hand over the base to the Alliance, but at the end of the day who was there to fight the Reapers? Who was there to help humanity? Who was there to provide Shepard with the resources he needed?

Granted, I'm more anti-Cerberus, pro-what-the-f*ck-I-think, but mabey all the operations involving killing hundreds of innocent people?  Last I checked, the worst ones were not all "rouge," if any can truely be rouge.  With Cerberus structured as it is, either he pretends he doesn't know whats going on in the "rouge" operations, or he is totally incompitent.

[Inverness Moon]

Omnicrat wrote...

gloops wrote...

2) No, but does Cerberus seem like the sharing type? Espetially if they think it is unseeisary to share with non-humans?

Cerberus recognizes the Reaper threat. Unless it's a group run by morons -- which I don't think it is -- then they're going to do what is necessary to defeat the Reapers. I don't understand the reasoning that Cerberus is just going to horde the technology just cuz they would.

They do not horde the tech because they would horde the tech.  The horde the tech because this will give humanity the leg-up it needs to asert dominance.  If victory looked totaly impossible without sharing the data, that would be the first thing they did.  I'm not saying they are stupid.  I'm saying they are smart enough to know when they get delt a trupm card they know how to use it, and do not instead break character and go, "Golly gee, we'll give this tech to ANYONE fighting the Reapers, because humanity is a part of everyone and everyone needs to survive!"  Yeah.  I'm the one making flawed predictions about the logic of a terrorist organization willing to tack (almost) any advantage it can get.

I don't think TIM is stupid enough to horde the tech and endanger our chances of victory because of it. At this point we don't know enough about the reapers to accurately judge what our odds are and what technology will make a difference. Hording anything could be very bad and I have no doubt TIM knows this.