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[Omnicrat]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

1)  If they did that (give the alliance the tech), you don't think they could then use the whole, comming to the rescue to get political clout?  Bribe/blacmail/convert/elect enough officials and, hey,  Cerberus controles the most powerful fleet in the galaxy!  But wait, you say nearly all the officials they would have needed to bribe/blackmail/convert were on Earth?  What else?, most died in the Reaper invasion?  So, really, Cerberus just has to present itself with tech upgrades to get direct controle of the entire fleet AND look like saviours at the same time?  Huh.  Whoda thunk it.  But its not just the most powerful fleet they get as a prize, oh no, its also the one we could never have defeated the Reapers without.  The one with the tech to kick every one elses collective asses.  Yeah, that human supremisist with massive influence would never try and set up some time of human supremisit Utopia with his new found fleet.  That would be assinine.

note:  I'm looking at this as if we survive, because if we do not (even with compromising what we [well, what I] an fighting for), it didn't matter one way or the other.

Of course Cerberus would get a lot of positive rep IF they publicized their role in providing technology (and Shepard himself) to help defeat the reapers. But I don't see how this translates into them having control of the Alliance fleets at all.

Omnicrat wrote...

2)  He doesn't want to conquer the galaxy per-say, he wants a galaxy that is best for humans (as he sees it).  Given the opportunity to elevate humans to a dominant roll (so that no one else can take advantage of us) why would he, someone who has voiced a great desire to secure humanity's place in the galaxy, not do so?

A galaxy that is best for humans is one where we're the strongest, but everyone doesn't hate us. Trying to conquer the galaxy in any way or introduce some "human supremacist utopia" is counterproductive. TIM is not a fool.

Omnicrat wrote...

3a)  I more meant the sacrifice liberty for security bit, but I know of some more that would also work (includeing that one), so I just left it up to your immagination.  Anyway, it is still a philisophically sound possition and it still comes down to my choice.  I can live with my choice.  From my prespective you just made the (wrong) choice of giving a human-supremisist the tools to conquer the galaxy if we survive.  You made the choice of oppression over destruction for the same number of people I made the choice of destruction over opression for.  Why is my choice invalidated by this if your choice is valid?

Your choice doesn't make sense. You have nothing on which to base your claim that the collector base would allow TIM or anyone else to conquer the galaxy. I've already stated why that doesn't make sense in a previous post.

Omnicrat wrote...

3b)  This dissision is the opposite of Sarens.  He thought survival by any means (which is much closer to what you are saying) is preferable to genocide.  I think that how one survie means more then if they survive.

What your choice has in common with Saren's is that you both gave up before the fight even began.

I find it hilarious that some people are all gung-ho about fighting the galactic horrors known as the reapers, but when it comes to TIM they'd rather just kill themselves so they don't have to deal with it. That is nonsense and/or meta-gaming right there.

1)  I see Tim makeing a public service anouncement, on how Cerberus had the foresight to bring Shepard back.  How they knew the dangers of Reapers.  How they and only they have the tech to save humanity.  I then see either a hostile (albeit welcome) take-over of the now defunct Alliance (parlement got destroyed, or at least greatly reduced in number) or a merger bettween the two organizations, with Cerberus being put in charge of matters military and scientific (with secreat claws in the politics side, of corse).  When tim can literally name his price, why would he settle for anything less?

2)  No, but he is a zelot.  This is proven in the dialogue at the end of ME2.  Humans have to be as dominant as possible, or they risk loosing everything.  If the next few generations of aliens hate them, big deal.  In the long run, human culture and "rule" will be accpted as nattual/good.  I use the quotes, because individual races would most likely mantain autounmity, but humans would have an unofficail request/veto that is pretty obviouse.

3a)  Because it would be out of character/not in humanities real best interest?  Would it not be more out of character, for the man who just gave a speach about securing dominance for humanity (and the dominance of Cerberus being the same thing as the dominance of humanity) not to, oh, I don't know, try and dominate the galaxy?

3b-1)  In what way am I giving up?  I have the Rachni.  I have the Quarians.  I have the Geth.  I have the Council races.  I have the mother f*cking Krogan!  I am armed to the teeth with allies, and I have good reason to think we can win this (other ships will have Thanex cannons aswell, for one).  Reapers are powerfull, but they are not the gods they perport themselves to be.  You illogically assume that maintanance of an enemy base will be the only factor of consiquence to the defeat of the Reapers.  Given their typical "dissorginize and dissconect" stratagy (which failed, btw) it seems pretty obviouse to me a well organized and well co-ordinated fleet will be more devistating to the reapers then the Thanex cannon mark II.

3b-2)  Its not killing myself.  It is willingness to risk possible genocide (which I see as greatly avoidable) to prevent definite tyranny.  Why create a new enemey when I alread have the Reapers?  If you just can't comprehend the philosophy, please send me a PM, and I would be happy to discuss it in great depthed.

[Omnicrat]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

gloops wrote...

2) No, but does Cerberus seem like the sharing type? Espetially if they think it is unseeisary to share with non-humans?

Cerberus recognizes the Reaper threat. Unless it's a group run by morons -- which I don't think it is -- then they're going to do what is necessary to defeat the Reapers. I don't understand the reasoning that Cerberus is just going to horde the technology just cuz they would.

They do not horde the tech because they would horde the tech.  The horde the tech because this will give humanity the leg-up it needs to asert dominance.  If victory looked totaly impossible without sharing the data, that would be the first thing they did.  I'm not saying they are stupid.  I'm saying they are smart enough to know when they get delt a trupm card they know how to use it, and do not instead break character and go, "Golly gee, we'll give this tech to ANYONE fighting the Reapers, because humanity is a part of everyone and everyone needs to survive!"  Yeah.  I'm the one making flawed predictions about the logic of a terrorist organization willing to tack (almost) any advantage it can get.

I don't think TIM is stupid enough to horde the tech and endanger our chances of victory because of it. At this point we don't know enough about the reapers to accurately judge what our odds are and what technology will make a difference. Hording anything could be very bad and I have no doubt TIM knows this.

You are compleatly right.  He would not horde tech if he thought humanity might die out.  However, he would most certainly make people think he would.  This way, he can have his cake and eat it too.  Who does't believe the crazy terrorist leader is willing to risk extinction if his demands aren't met?  What "sane" government would turn what might well be their only chance at survival down, no matter what the cost?

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...
Compared to the Renegade 'all your base belong to us'
1) Reapers invade
1a) Gain our allies
2) Create new technology based on weapon designs from the Collector Base
3) Utilize the increased technological base to effect on the Reapers
4) Win.

Perhaps but far from assured.
1a) If possible at all. Cerberus has somehow managed to make almost everyone their enemy. To keep supporting them makes Shepard look rather suspicious too.
2) Frankly just wishfull thinking. Nothing says that the base HAVE to contain the ONLY way of saving the galaxy. It may just as well contain nothing usefull. What we do know it contains however, is a fully functional reaper base and production facility that we have no means of controlling safely.
3) Assuming everything works as planned with the base we know almost nothing about.

But I fully admit that the base blowing path is based on as much irrational fear and wishfull thinking so I can't realy dismiss the base keepers decision to take the high risk path. But personaly I don't need to be absolutely right about everything all the time.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I personally don't particularly like Cerberus, but I do acknowledge they're all we have against the Reaper threat (and were all we had against the Collectors). I fully expect to have to stop them at some point... but as they've put enough aside to defeat the Reapers first, so will my Shep.

[Arijharn]

lovgreno wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Compared to the Renegade 'all your base belong to us'
1) Reapers invade
1a) Gain our allies
2) Create new technology based on weapon designs from the Collector Base
3) Utilize the increased technological base to effect on the Reapers
4) Win.

Perhaps but far from assured.
1a) If possible at all. Cerberus has somehow managed to make almost everyone their enemy. To keep supporting them makes Shepard look rather suspicious too.

I don't really see the other species having much choice in the matter to be honest... and that's even presupposing I'll tell them I worked with Cerberus or if they really care over much. I mean, the Salarian's strike me as being rather cold-blooded (wait, is that a pun?) so I don't think they'll have to many issues because, after all, their back is to the wall too.

For them, it's very much a case of damned if they do, absolutely stuffed if they don't. It's almost like a case of brinkmanship. 

lovgreno wrote...
2) Frankly just wishfull thinking. Nothing says that the base HAVE to contain the ONLY way of saving the galaxy. It may just as well contain nothing usefull. What we do know it contains however, is a fully functional reaper base and production facility that we have no means of controlling safely.

Sure we have means to control it with relative safety (there are no absolutes imo). You can take steps, and as long as you don't go all Rael'Zorah and give the order to 'bypass standard safeties' you would have a good chance of having the means of extracting something useful out of it (moreso than if you destroyed it in anycase, as you've already conceded).
I don't believe making the assumption that something ELSE will come along is prudent. In fact, to be brutally honest, I think that thought (in context) to be the most incredibly stupid move anyone can make. A person who leaves that to complete chance and blind wishful thinking in my opinion does not deserve an officer rank in any armed forces, and much less of being a Spectre because as a Spectre your duty is to preserve galactic stability -- and what galactic stability do you have if everyone is dead due to your fears? Unless of course you want to go all Judge Death and say living is sinful (kudos to those who know what I'm talking about hehe).
But... suppose you're right and the base doesn't contain anything useful, you've still covered all your bases (ha! pun totally not intended... over much) for as many eventualities as you can.

lovgreno wrote...
3) Assuming everything works as planned with the base we know almost nothing about.

Sure, but isn't it better to have extra firepower you don't need as opposed to not having as much firepower as you need? The idea of having the base they is to find out if it has what we need though, which as I'm sure any person here is intelligent to realise is easier to find out if the structure is intact, than if it isn't.

[gloops]

The horde the tech because this will give humanity the leg-up it needs to asert dominance.

A leg up in human dominance doesn't mean anything if humanity is extinct.

I'm the one making flawed predictions about the logic of a terrorist organization willing to tack (almost) any advantage it can get.

How is Cerberus a terrorist organization?

He would not horde tech if he thought humanity might die out. However, he would most certainly make people think he would. This way, he can have his cake and eat it too. Who does't believe the crazy terrorist leader is willing to risk extinction if his demands aren't met?

Unless he's an idiot, TIM doesn't do that because it delays the amount of time available for cohesion against the Reapers. If that happens, the Reapers' odds of victory greatly increases.

[james1976]

Ieldra2 wrote...

james1976 wrote...
Well from my Paragon's standpoint, destroying the Collector base and denying Cerebus access to it was a two-fold win. It was destroying an abomination of evil and preventing an people like TIM from using the horrors in which where trying to destroy all organic life in the first place. Better to stand on your beliefs in the face of all odds.

....even if means galactic extinction. The true mark of the Principles Zealot. Mental inflexibility is not a virtue.

This is why these decisions are suppose to be hard morale choices.  You have to really think about what your character would do.  Not what you would do unless you are playing a character who is of like mind to yourself.

[Sajuro]

Yes, lets assume that the human dominance terrorist organization is going to give their toys to Aliens to help fight the reapers instead of letting the Reapers wipe the Aliens out and using their toys to fight the Reapers all throughout the known galaxy before they get to earth.

That is perfectly reasonable, nope no faulty thinking there.

[Interactive Civilian]

Stupid question not worth it's own thread: When exactly do Jacob and Miranda submit their resignations?



I finished a playthrough recently and couldn't find where they say it? Help a brutha out with a brief answer, please.

[Zeke01231]

When do Jacob/Miranda quit...they have never done that in my games?

[james1976]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Stupid question not worth it's own thread: When exactly do Jacob and Miranda submit their resignations?

I finished a playthrough recently and couldn't find where they say it? Help a brutha out with a brief answer, please.

Depending on what you did toward the end the might between ME2 and ME3.  But they didn't quit Cerebus during ME2 to my knowledge no matter how you played.

[Interactive Civilian]

Ah... I could have sworn I once heard Miranda say, "Consider this my resignation", and mentally I can hear it in her voice very clearly, but I can't remember how it came about or if it even did. I don't suppose she says it if she's on your squad when you choose to destroy the base, does she? Like, if she's the one using the omni-tool for comm. with TIM?



Or maybe it was in a trailer?



Or maybe it's just my imagination? (probably the most likely scenario)

[Barquiel]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Ah... I could have sworn I once heard Miranda say, "Consider this my resignation", and mentally I can hear it in her voice very clearly, but I can't remember how it came about or if it even did. I don't suppose she says it if she's on your squad when you choose to destroy the base, does she? Like, if she's the one using the omni-tool for comm. with TIM?

Or maybe it was in a trailer?

Or maybe it's just my imagination? (probably the most likely scenario)

You have to take Miranda with you to fight the final boss.

[james1976]

Barquiel wrote...

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Ah... I could have sworn I once heard Miranda say, "Consider this my resignation", and mentally I can hear it in her voice very clearly, but I can't remember how it came about or if it even did. I don't suppose she says it if she's on your squad when you choose to destroy the base, does she? Like, if she's the one using the omni-tool for comm. with TIM?

Or maybe it was in a trailer?

Or maybe it's just my imagination? (probably the most likely scenario)

You have to take Miranda with you to fight the final boss.

That would explain why I don't remember it.  So many playthroughs to see it all   I had Tali and Kasumi with me the first time.

[gloops]

Yes, lets assume that the human dominance terrorist organization is going to give their toys to Aliens to help fight the reapers instead of letting the Reapers wipe the Aliens out and using their toys to fight the Reapers all throughout the known galaxy before they get to earth.

Nice try, but no. I think we're all in agreement that Cerberus goal is the betterment of humanity. There are degrees to this, but I'm not interested in discussing those.



Since Cerberus' goal is the betterment of humanity, that means the group is willing to do all that is necessary to ensure the survival of humanity. Doing something as retarded as you describe would involve greatly enhancing the probability that humanity will become extinct, because the idea that humanity by itself could defeat the Reapers is asinine to even the biggest idiot. Since Cerberus actually understands the Reaper threat (and they should understand it better since I kept the base), then I see no problem in them sharing the tech with the other species fighting the Reapers.

That is perfectly reasonable, nope no faulty thinking there.

Perhaps you should inspect your own reasoning more thoroughly before being so snarky, jackass.

[james1976]

gloops wrote...

Yes, lets assume that the human dominance terrorist organization is going to give their toys to Aliens to help fight the reapers instead of letting the Reapers wipe the Aliens out and using their toys to fight the Reapers all throughout the known galaxy before they get to earth.

Nice try, but no. I think we're all in agreement that Cerberus goal is the betterment of humanity. There are degrees to this, but I'm not interested in discussing those.

Since Cerberus' goal is the betterment of humanity, that means the group is willing to do all that is necessary to ensure the survival of humanity. Doing something as retarded as you describe would involve greatly enhancing the probability that humanity will become extinct, because the idea that humanity by itself could defeat the Reapers is asinine to even the biggest idiot. Since Cerberus actually understands the Reaper threat (and they should understand it better since I kept the base), then I see no problem in them sharing the tech with the other species fighting the Reapers.

That is perfectly reasonable, nope no faulty thinking there.

Perhaps you should inspect your own reasoning more thoroughly before being so snarky, jackass.

And I think Cerebus would sacrifice the other races for "the better of humanity" as well.

[Inverness Moon]

james1976 wrote...

And I think Cerebus would sacrifice the other races for "the better of humanity" as well.

Depleting humanity of allies does not help them.

[james1976]

Inverness Moon wrote...

james1976 wrote...

And I think Cerebus would sacrifice the other races for "the better of humanity" as well.

Depleting humanity of allies does not help them.

TIM wants humanity to be the top dog and he'd be willing to put aleins on the front lines to soak the damage and make sacrifices over humans.  His line about "human dominance" tells all.

[Omnicrat]

gloops wrote...

The horde the tech because this will give humanity the leg-up it needs to asert dominance.

A leg up in human dominance doesn't mean anything if humanity is extinct.

I'm the one making flawed predictions about the logic of a terrorist organization willing to tack (almost) any advantage it can get.

How is Cerberus a terrorist organization?

He would not horde tech if he thought humanity might die out. However, he would most certainly make people think he would. This way, he can have his cake and eat it too. Who does't believe the crazy terrorist leader is willing to risk extinction if his demands aren't met?

Unless he's an idiot, TIM doesn't do that because it delays the amount of time available for cohesion against the Reapers. If that happens, the Reapers' odds of victory greatly increases.

1)  Tim doesn't think that is going to happen.

2)  Um... because that is litterally what they are?  A more accurate term for them would be "rougue para-military human supremisit organization with a radical aproch," but the worlds still call them terrorists.

3)  Tim says he plans on using the base to secure human dominance.  Can't argue with in-game dialogue.  I'm just putting forth the explanation that doesn't make him out to be a total moron.

[Vaenier]

Do I need to point out the base will only provide a temporary bonus to Cerberus? You do realize it will literally be raining Reaper tech when this is over. So after the fact they will have enough pieces to rebuild several Reapers, might as well let them give you an edge in the mean time.

I dont understand how people think this technology will be forever exclusive. Cerberus will get a few years head start, just enough to help with the Reapers. Lets not forget the fact we will be sharing it with the galaxy to better our chances of survival. Extinct humans suck at being rulers afterall. Maybe people are just short sighted.

[Sidac]

For those saying that if you give the base to cerberus, tech ONLY stays with cerberus.....

Cerberus gets tech (not military) ===> Alliance (Military) gets tech/info/weps from Cerberus ===> Alliance shares with Galaxy

Cerberus can take the heat due to the fact that they are small and "not connected" to the alliance. That also means that the alliance can blame / hate on Cerberus while still getting a leg-up from them. Same way current govts can disavow (sp?) any knowledge / consent of action against another. Oldest trick in the book. It allows you to gain while being able to crap on the party yourself. You look good in the eyes of the people on top.

Modifié par Sidac, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:37 .

[gloops]

1) Tim doesn't think that is going to happen.

TIM doesn't think there's a chance humanity could be wiped out by the Reapers? Yeah, whatever.

3) Tim says he plans on using the base to secure human dominance. Can't argue with in-game dialogue. I'm just putting forth the explanation that doesn't make him out to be a total moron.

He plans on using the base to secure human dominance post-Reaper threat. That doesn't mean while fighting the Reapers he won't do what is necessary. Human dominance doesn't mean anything if humanity is extinct, which it certainly will be if TIM hordes the tech.

[Sajuro]

gloops wrote...

Yes, lets assume that the human dominance terrorist organization is going to give their toys to Aliens to help fight the reapers instead of letting the Reapers wipe the Aliens out and using their toys to fight the Reapers all throughout the known galaxy before they get to earth.

Nice try, but no. I think we're all in agreement that Cerberus goal is the betterment of humanity. There are degrees to this, but I'm not interested in discussing those.

Since Cerberus' goal is the betterment of humanity, that means the group is willing to do all that is necessary to ensure the survival of humanity. Doing something as retarded as you describe would involve greatly enhancing the probability that humanity will become extinct, because the idea that humanity by itself could defeat the Reapers is asinine to even the biggest idiot. Since Cerberus actually understands the Reaper threat (and they should understand it better since I kept the base), then I see no problem in them sharing the tech with the other species fighting the Reapers.

That is perfectly reasonable, nope no faulty thinking there.

Perhaps you should inspect your own reasoning more thoroughly before being so snarky, jackass.

Over the course of two mass effect games and a lifetime of media, I have learned the Cerberus and other such organizations ared nothing if not rife with retarded thinking.
Nope, I inspected my reasoning and it just brings to mind a fake Onion headline from WW2: "Japanese side with nation seeking Aryan supremacy in a well thought out move"

[gloops]

Over the course of two mass effect games and a lifetime of media, I have learned the Cerberus and other such organizations ared nothing if not rife with retarded thinking.

So you have to resort to metagaming? Game, set and match gloops.