22 réponses à ce sujet

[Awevii]

I have no idea the general consensus on Dragonborn, but I love them, I originally thought the Dragonborn were only a race apart of the non Forgotten Realms editions of Dungeons and Dragons but I have done my research (like the geek I am) and found they exist not only in Forgotten Realms but some live in Toril, if I knew the first thing about modding Id do my darndest to spend hours attempting at making them, but I don't any ways feel free to tell me how much you agree or disagree, which I hope many of you will.

[kamal_]

http://nwvault.ign.c...l.Detail&id=285

[manageri]

Races of Faerun has em as well - http://nwvault.ign.c...l.Detail&id=392

[Seagloom]

There are two different dragonborn. The 3e version introduced in the FR setting has very different origins from the 4e version with its own background that differs both in and out of FR from the 3e incarnation. Personally, I dislike them. I prefer mundane lizardfolk, yuan-ti, or half-dragons to dragonborn. Also, I always found it hard to take female dragonborn seriously. They are reptilians with boobs. ...huh?

[Awevii]

They explained that Dragonborn have Mammary glands because they are in fact warmblooded not Reptilian and they feed their babies milk. Even though they lay eggs, but remember birds are warmblooded as are platypus and they both lay eggs.

[metatheurgist]

And birds and monotremes don't have scales and pretend to be reptiles. Personally I find the furrization of RPGs to be extremely disturbing. Humans rule.

[Seagloom]

I have to agree on the humans bit. Call it boring, but I prefer playing a human 99.9% of the time. There is more than enough variation in cultural differences that I rarely feel the need to branch out into a demihuman race. As far as the explanation for dragonborn breasts go, I suppose that works. It feels more like an afterthought than an original part of the concept, though. In any case, I am just not that into them, alas.



They lack the coolness factor of tieflings and genasi in terms of design. I find the lore behind yuan-ti and naga more interesting as well.

[metatheurgist]

That's a nice cover story on the dragon born, but we all know the real reason.

[Awevii]

I wouldn't call it boring to like playing humans...we all have our many likes and dislikes. I had an interesting time reading about the Dragon Born, which is why I thought it'd be cool if they were included. I love most races of the game, I rarely make Dwarf, Halfling or Gnome PC's but we all have our tastes and that's cool.

[dunniteowl]

I always considered reptilian (as well as avian) species of intelligent fantasy creatures to be less concerned about outworld physical appearances -- you know, just to sort of match that controversy with some reality based concepts. Male birds in the raptor family tend to be 2/3s the size of the females. Oddly, the females in reptilian species also tend towards being larger than their male counterparts. Other than that, there are almost no marking, colors or phenomorphic differences in the sexes that can be determined without 'probing' for the sex glands.

Warmblooded or not, reptilian species would (in my view) be much more likely to take care of their young, not with mammary glands, but by regurgitated feeding of their prime food source -- just as birds do. I mean, provided they didn't just have hundreds of those little buggers and let them survive (or not) as nature intended. Then, as they approach maturity, they are captured and 'brought into' the culture and society that will test them one more time at adulthood to see if they deserve to pass on their heritage to the next generation.

Intelligence aside, such creatures would be wholly more believeable without distinctive physical differences other than size, say (with the females being actually larger and possibly stronger) and with characteristics we human acculterated folks might find to be repugnantly barbaric or animal-like, thus making them that much more alien (read: harder to roleplay decently well) and, thusly, more believeable as another species of intelligent creatures that are not simply fitted with the accoutrements of human cultures in disguise.



That's just me, though. Then again, I like falling out of trees upon unsuspecting rodentia, so there's that.



dunniteowl

[Awevii]

alright alright I'm sorry for bring them up and liking them...shame, shame on me

Modifié par Awevii, 20 janvier 2011 - 05:31 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

I think they look cool, and are a neat design (boobs or not).  I have been asked before to make them, or at least make heads of them.  I just do not have interest in such exotic races as anything more than monsters.

A thread with lots of pics

Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 20 janvier 2011 - 06:05 .

[kevL]

art always amazes me, so much time & effort ...

i put my hand to it a long time ago - no knack whatsoever, ended up using rulers and things just to kludge something half decent together.



tks for the pics, HF

[Seagloom]

Awevii wrote...

I wouldn't call it boring to like playing humans...we all have our many likes and dislikes. I had an interesting time reading about the Dragon Born, which is why I thought it'd be cool if they were included. I love most races of the game, I rarely make Dwarf, Halfling or Gnome PC's but we all have our tastes and that's cool.

Sorry if it came across as lashing back. It was a knee jerk statement. Usually when a conversation about D&D races kicks off someone points out how boring humans are. We are humans in real life. There is nothing interesting about humans. Yada yada ect. I can understand the desire to play a character that is only vaguely human in appearance, but personally I find more than enough variation in humans.

I always had a fondness for gnomes though. I used to like elves once upon a time. They are no longer fun for me to play. Generally I like human offshoot races such as tieflings, aasimar, and genasi. I find that the farther out a race gets, the harder it is for me to feel a connection to my character.

[dunniteowl]

Seagloom 7p, CDT (approx) :

I find that the farther out a race gets, the harder it is for me to feel a connection to my character.

And such is the basis for my premise in this opinion:

Me, Earlier than this:

and with characteristics we human acculterated folks might find to be repugnantly barbaric or animal-like, thus making them that much more alien (read: harder to roleplay decently well) and, thusly, more believeable as another species of intelligent creatures that are not simply fitted with the accoutrements of human cultures in disguise.

I feel the real emphasis on playing another race is, certainly, the "cool factor" of something different, like another species or race entirely different from mankind. I love playing humans. I hardly ever take other races, though not out of a lack of "coolness" to them. I think Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Halflings and even Orcs are kind of "cool" if played well.

Problem is, the further you get from humanity in physical appearance and -- well, genetics or magical heredity, I suppose -- the less human LIKE they should be played, IMHO. And that's not easy to do. In PnP, I tended to favor Gnomes and Dwarves -- and even though I am an outdoorsy type, elven habits seem -- too effete for my general demeanor.

Unfortunately, most other races, including the planar races, are just human cultures dressed up with tails, horns, pointy ears and sometimes scales. meh. If that's how it is, then just let me play a human and ham up the differences that are already there without having to pretend to be a cruel or evil race of beings who just happen to look different.

I am sure I can roleplay effectively a creature given sufficient background of nearly any type, but if it's just going to be Orcs = Norse Vikings or Klingons, Dwarves = stout and doughty fighters with Scots accents or Elves = effete and foppish lords with slender swords and finely boned faces, then well, humans will do just as fine, thanks.

I think the Dragon Born have potential (at least as much as proper Dwarves and Elves to be sure), but given the light treatment of cultures pasted on or sprayed thinly over like a veneer hiding the true grain of a race of beings who should see the world fundamentally differently than us, then the only real "cool" factor starts to weigh out in favor of their combat related stats.

Now if only someone could really flesh these folk out with a reptilian or draconic sort of acculterated point of view that creates their culture instead of it being tacked on from some other human culture, then we'd be onto something I think.

dunniteowl

(It's not the fault of the race, just a lack of vision on the race's creator's part, IMHO.)

[Quixal]

Though I am not a fan of the dragonborn in particular, I will come out in defense of the truly alien. Yes, all too often a thin veneer of very human cultural background is spread over an inhuman species but that does not mean the idea is wrong. Just that the execution is often sloppy/lazy/uninspired.

Personally at least, I enjoy the challenge of trying to roleplay a species that is pointedly not human in some significant way. Not always, but I think it has value.

And even though I dislike the dragonborn, I don't think it is wrong to like them. It is a matter of personal taste.

Edit: Urg. I will never get used to the formatting on the BSN.

Modifié par Quixal, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:24 .

[The Fred]

I think what I (and possibly other people) like about non-human races is more the stats. Not just in a power-building, how-can-I-get-as-many-point-of-Strength-or-a-Charisma-bonus-without-a-level-adjustment? sort of way, but in the fact that if you have exceptional abilities, you can feel you are playing a cooler and more exceptional sort of character. So you could just as easily be an awesome human wizard or expert swordsman, but being a demon-blooded master warlock works even better (and eventually you will probably get bored of playing human this, human that, or at least, I do). Playing a "monster" in a human world can be interesting, too.

[Mad.Hatter]

I prefer playing humans myself, but have gradually become more accepting of the other races.



I used to think along the lines of "if you aren't human, your race must act so different from humans to make it near impossible to roleplay appropriately." I came to the realization that I was probably trying way too hard to dislike them. Perhaps other races would act exactly like humans (I.E. in a generally rational way) but have different reasons for doing so. I like the flavor texts that you can find about elves and dwarves for example--that they typically do the same types of things as humans but do them in a different way and with a different perspective due to their long lives.



Ultimately we're giving human traits to fictional species. Of course they act like human variants because a.) they aren't real and b.) to get a lizard to pick up a sword, adventure, and be intelligent they have to have human-esque qualities. Monkeys do roughly the same things as humans, just for similar but different reasons. It isn't hard to believe that even-more-intelligent lizards would do the same thing.



In fact, what gave humans a monopoly over these characteristics? Perhaps they are simply the manifestations of more-developed species (of which we only have a few, arguably one example on Earth).

[kamal_]

If you have fun playing a dragonborn, then play a dragonborn.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I have dragon born on my PW.



I did not want them taking over the server, so i made them so they could only choose certain non magical classes. Very good at melee, nice stats, good for a low level person to easily get power, but long term not the best option for a good player power gaming wise. Some folks really like them, they help a lot power gaming wise, but they don't become the only viable option and being a human which can do things with out restrictions is still a very valid choice.



No they are not well developed, but just watch something like V, study the materials, look at real science papers and come up with that development yourself. I was doing this for gnolls and really now think they'd be a great race to play after reading a few papers on hyena behavior. Just because they aren't done well by the publisher has no bearing on if you can play one well, you just got to remember there is far more lore you can use than what is labeled D&D.

[metatheurgist]

Mad.Hatter wrote...
In fact, what gave humans a monopoly over these characteristics? Perhaps they are simply the manifestations of more-developed species (of which we only have a few, arguably one example on Earth).

Actually with Neaderthals and Hobbits (****** Floresienis) there are 3 (and probably more will be discovered, which proves how much more awesome Humans are that we rule and they don't). They share similar behaviour (along with monkeys, chimps and great apes) because they all descend from the same lineage.

However giving reptiles breasts and claiming they'll have human like behaviour is completely absurd. Reptiles should behave like reptiles (or whatever).

[Mad.Hatter]

metatheurgist wrote...

Actually with Neaderthals and Hobbits (****** Floresienis) there are 3 (and probably more will be discovered, which proves how much more awesome Humans are that we rule and they don't). They share similar behaviour (along with monkeys, chimps and great apes) because they all descend from the same lineage.

However giving reptiles breasts and claiming they'll have human like behaviour is completely absurd. Reptiles should behave like reptiles (or whatever).

Right, and claiming to know how reptiles with over-developed brains would act isn't equally absurd... Additionally, I was speaking about the present day because, for as many bones and artifacts we dig up, we can only infer about neanderthals and other hominidae. Most of what we believe about them is based on the fact they look like monkeys and us.

I agree about the breasts, but for me it isn't difficult to make-believe that fictional advanced reptilian creatures would be advanced enough to seek the same basic things as human beings but simply view them from a different perspective. I assume you mean that behaving like a reptile for a fictional supra-intelligent and civilized reptile means that they do "human types of things" (like, I dunno, gathering coins and wearing armor and adventuring and speaking complex languages and... and...)  and simply do them differently.

I don't think we disagree as much as it seems.

[dunniteowl]

My initial point isn't that they wouldn't do human-esque things or have drives, ambitions and desires that we couldn't understand.  My point is that making their culture human-like takes a certain amount of 'flavor' away from the race in question in the first place.  I don't think it would be all that unreasonable to see such races as dragonborn have political differences, personal dislikes or desire to seek power and control over their kindred.

The difference is that those motivations would most likely be based on something we might (as prototypical humans) find hard to either empathize with or relate to culturally.  Placing them into a milieu and calling them Dragonborn, but only giving them a culture that directly mimics, say, Berbers from North Africa does not do an alien race justice, whether it's a science fiction or fantasy milieu.

And yes, nothing stops you from making your own 'worldview' for these other races.  In fact, it's one of the reasons that D&D has been a mainstay for me since 1979.  You can make your own stuff up and use the games mechanics.  And you don't have to stop there.

However, if you're shooting for a canonical flair with the Dragonborn, then you're going to have to deal with the rather slipshod representation they get from the core books and such.  I think, as I said, it's not the race's fault, it's the fault of the creator of the race from lack of vision or a critical miss in the imagination department.  There should be a whole hegemony of the dragonborn, minions of the dragons themselves, whereby each major bloc of the Dragonborn are hereditarily attached to a set of dragons of a specific type.  The dragons gain more power to rule through their minions and the minions claim prestige or heritage through them and use that to lay claim to superiority against other dragonborn not of their kith and kin.

You could create an environment like that where political machinations are pretty much the result of the will of the ruling dragons with the minions seeking power and currying favor with their overlords by carrying out their wishes, while at the same time seeking to improve their positions through machinations of their own against their inferiors, superiors, other factions within the clans, etc.

Like I said, it's not that they wouldn't have drives and ambitions, it's that the culture they would have would, hopefully have a distinctly other worldly tang to it by dint of the creatures not being human -- at all.  They would most likely experience pride, jealousy, envy, greed, lust (for power or carnal delights or both) and other such things, but it would always be tinted through the filters of what they are.

And of course, this is just my own interesting point of view on that subject and cannot honestly presume to speak with any real authority on the subject as I have yet to meet any other species of intelligent creatures to get their take on the concept.  That said, I do not believe that I lack for creative imagination when it comes to creating races that are distinctly non-human.  (I have worked on fleshing out what I call the "Lesser Races" for my own gameworld, P'arn`Nath, [these "Lesser Races" include the goblinkind, lizardkin, orcs and such] as well as creating at least eight non human races for a science fiction role playing game of my own design.  I spend many hours making their culture as distinct as I can manage and spend plenty of time figuring out what concepts, drives, motivations and whatnot make these beings do what they do.  It's one of my favorite parts of gameworld creation.)

dunniteowl