302 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

Pwnsaur wrote...
The ideal system, a middle-ground between the two extremes, is worth plenty. Why is any other feature worth more than this one? It's just a subjective and narrow-minded point of view to say 'this is worth it' and 'that is not.' I am not saying that they need to extend the development process to include arbitrary features, but to find a balance between the two styles with-in the already allotted time given to them to create the game.

Would it be such an inordinately long procedure to create a bit more variety in the armor system as completely to forget it? I hardly think so. I get these impressions people are grossly underestimating the abilities of one of the most formidable gaming marriages in the history of our medium (BioWare + Electronic Arts). If you take a step back and really look at it objectively, there is no reason we cannot have a little of both. If not, what are we saying about game innovation as a whole?

The thing is though, it will require work. That work will cost money. So the benefit of a system must be rewarding enough to warrant the resource drain. Can Bioware and Electronics Arts pull it off? Of course. The question is though: can they pull it off and still sell the game with a profit? It is a business after all.

Extending the timeframe will be very expensive.
Hiring more people will be very expensive.

Is having a few extra outfits per character to choose between worth that expense?
Will it drastically improve the game? Or is it a fun little bonus? Is it something that will make the game a much richer experience? Or just a little more enjoyable? Will it lead to a much greater crowd enjoying the game so much more or will it add a couple of reruns for some?

By no means am I saying it should be a clear-cut reward/expense comparison, but the question is if this will make that much of a difference. Would I, personally, like to see it in the game? Of course. Will it make much of a difference if I have many or a few outfits? Probably not. Am I expecting it in the future? No.

[IRMcGhee]

Pwnsaur wrote...

IRMcGhee wrote...

Thing is, it might be your ideal but obviously Bioware decided they don't want to go with a system like that for this game. If they'd wanted to, I'm sure they could have just as easily left it like DA:O or made some sort of hybrid system.

And you think this has nothing to do with the extremely short development time between the two games? You mentioned 'they could have just as easily left it like DA:O or made some sort of hybrid system,' which is clearly false. It would take more work and more time to execute either of those alternate plans. Also, you really believe having each companion constricted to only 1-2 outfits for the entire 10yr in-game timeline was a product of an 'ideal?' I think we can both agree that is very unlikely, and more a result of this aforementioned time factor.

Stagnation is death. Innovation is life. If you believe this to be the end-all be-all 'ideal' that BioWare has spent 16 years reaching, you have very little faith in the life of the company.

It doesn't have an "extremely short" dev cycle. Work began on the game before DA:O was released. The only reason the companion outfits are "restricted" is because that's the way they wanted to go. They've stated the reasons more than once. And I really take exception to being talked down to, laddie. Skip it.

[Matchy Pointy]

StormbringerGT wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

Midey wrote...

Isabela should wear pants in her upgraded costume.

The Romans conquered most of their known world without pants, if it worked for them, I'm sure it will work for Isabela.

freddfx wrote...

Well, there's always The Witcher 2, and it's cheaper than $60 (and visually looks better)

Becasue The Witcher is such a great example when it comes to visual character customization...

I actually laughed out loud at that last one! I know people saw lol all the time but at most they smirk and typed I actually chuckled a bit at that one! Spot on.

To be honest and im gonna be hung. I didn't like the witcher much. I know I know its very big and Europe and plenty big here, but it never dug into me you know? It was a fun game, but it never sunk its nails into me.

I found it a good game (though not as awesome as many seem to think, and not nearly as gripping as DA, maybe becasue I didn't really feel a connection to Geralt). And I like bringing it up as an alternative in a thread regarding visual customization...

[Pwnsaur]

Soul Cool wrote...

This is not necessarily true. While the general trend may be to avoid extremes, or to obtain 'balance', it can lead to a form of paralysis as exemplified by some goals being unable to be reconciled to each other within the time alloted. Also, the word 'ideal' implies some form of value judgement, which means subjectivity. This is bad for the definition of 'ideal' and its applications when interaction with other humans is involved.

I used the term ideal as it was presented to me in an earlier post. I am not stating it as an invariantly perfect goal, as I believe this has yet to be achieved or even approached. There would be no 'paralysis' created from incuding a balanced system in a future Dragon Age title. Again, a gross underestimation of the abilities of BioWare, and rather sensationalist I might add.

Soul Cool wrote...

It's not narrow-minded for the developer's themselves, I would say. It does happen to be their job to consider these things in detail. Does the current solution seem so dreadfully unfavorable to you as to require a reworking of, hrm, I'm not actually sure how much the game would be changed to include inventory equipment for companions. I'm assuming, from the amount of time they have left before the stated release date, the the task would be monumental, if not legendary, in its level of difficulty.

I didn't imply that it was narrow-minded for the developers. I stated that it is narrow-minded of the consumers to put a red X over anything they don't deem worthy of the time it takes to create. I was referring to the next Dragon Age game, not this one. Obviously, I am aware of the impending release date, I'm sorry I did not make that clear enough for you.

Soul Cool wrote...
I do. I can think of some major things they'd have to change about the game just off-hand that would be time-intensive, especially with the release date as is of now. Cutscenes, armor upgrade system, and combat mechanics, just to name a few. All for an aesthetic and non-mandatory addition to the game.

Again. This is for future titles.

Soul Cool wrote...
Time.

 
I am assuming you meant it would be too much work for DA2, which I agree. If you mean it's too much for BioWare in a future release, you are just plain wrong.

Soul Cool wrote...
Developers have to make hard choices that they know are going to displease some people. I'm not incredibly pset with this, however personally disappointing I may find it at points in time. I don't envy developers those choices at all.

Your lack of 'envy' is irrelevant, as is your revelation that 'developers have to make hard decisions.' My point was that if the only things that are innovated are the things that don't require very much work, than innovation itself is lost. You can't take the effort out of innovation and have anything of value.

Soul Cool wrote...
Or it could be that they're doing things in a way that you, personally, don't agree with, and you can't look past that to see that this move BioWare is making may, in fact, have critical importance to their continued survival as a game developing company?

^^*That is perhaps the longest run-on sentence I have ever seen. Just saying.*^^

The reason this subject continues to appear in these forums is because I am not, personally, the only one with a problem with it. Aside from that, you didn't address my point in any way. If you believe that this inventory system is the pinnacle of game development, and respresents the very precipice to which BioWare has been aspiring to reach throughout their existence; You are disillusioned indeed.

Modifié par Pwnsaur, 17 janvier 2011 - 12:21 .

[Pwnsaur]

Sir JK wrote...

The thing is though, it will require work. That work will cost money. So the benefit of a system must be rewarding enough to warrant the resource drain. Can Bioware and Electronics Arts pull it off? Of course. The question is though: can they pull it off and still sell the game with a profit? It is a business after all.

Extending the timeframe will be very expensive.
Hiring more people will be very expensive.

So I can see your probably not even reading my posts, as I explicitly stated that I am not saying they should extend the development timeline.

I can also conclude, that anything I say will not make an impact on you whatsoever. It seems you believe this to be the crux of the games' financial success. If you really believe that adding visual customization to the companions in Dragon Age is going to be the deciding factor in whether or not the game is a profitable venture; We have nothing to discuss. I won't go into how preposterous I think that is, so we can just agree to disagree.

[Soul Cool]

Pwnsaur wrote...
I used the term ideal as it was presented to me in an earlier post. I am not stating it as an invariantly perfect goal, as I believe this has yet to be achieved or even approached. There would be no 'paralysis' created from incuding a balanced system in a future Dragon Age title. Again, a gross underestimation of the abilities of BioWare, and rather sensationist I might add.

I didn't imply that it was narrow-minded for the developers. I stated that it is narrow-minded of the consumers to put a red X over anything they don't deem worthy of the time it takes to create. I was referring to the next Dragon Age game, not this one. Obviously, I am aware of the impending release date, I'm sorry I did not make that clear enough for you.

This is why I shouldn't be posting at 5:45 am with no sleep from the previous night. Not reading the entire thread due ti impatience brought about by wanting to reply leads to this sort of failure. (Mine, not yours.)

Pwnsaur wrote...
Again. This is for future titles.

I would be perfectly fine with them including actual armor equipment options, instead of just 'accessories. I'd actually prefer a more detailed equipment system, instead of the entire sets we had in DA:O.

Pwnsaur wrote...
I am assuming you meant it would be too much work for DA2, which I agree. If you mean it's too much for BioWare in a future release, you are just plain wrong.

Just DA 2, see above. A developer of BioWare's caliber should be able to implement an armor equipment system. They've done it several times before, and it doesn't seeme to have detracted from the overall experience. (Unless you hate spending time in menus.)

Pwnsaur wrote...
My point was that if the only things that are innovated are the things that don't require very much work, than innovation itself is lost. You can't take the effort out of innovation and have anything of value.

On the other hand, innovation for the sake of innovation is just as bad. If there's a reasonably well-worked out method of doing something, and no pressing (or demanding if you prefer) reason to make it better, innovation can become the enemy of itself.

Pwnsaur wrote...
^^*That is perhaps the longest run-on sentence I have ever seen. Just saying.*^^

Exhaustion and a total lack of common sense ("Hey, I should go to bed, I've been awake for over twenty-four hours now!") after a certain amount of time is such a wonderful experience.

Pwnsaur wrote...
The reason this subject continues to appear in these forums is because I am not, personally, the only one with a problem with it. Aside from that, you didn't address my point in any way.

As I understood it, I did. Not as you meant it, for which I must ask forgivness in this particular case.

Pwnsaur wrote...
If you believe that this inventory system is the pinnacle of game development, and respresents the very precipice to which BioWare has been aspiring to reach throughout their existence; You are disillusioned indeed.

Oh, there's no question that I'm disillusioned. BioWare is a company like any other, driven by the bottom line whatever the employee's motivation may be or how well they do their job.

[Pwnsaur]

IRMcGhee wrote...

It doesn't have an "extremely short" dev cycle. Work began on the game before DA:O was released. The only reason the companion outfits are "restricted" is because that's the way they wanted to go. They've stated the reasons more than once. And I really take exception to being talked down to, laddie. Skip it.

I refuse to believe this is the ideal BioWare has envisioned from the companys' inception. If this is what you believe, my opinion is that you are wrong. I am not talking down to you when I tell you that I feel you are not comprehending the idea of innovation. If this is where the 'buck stops' in terms of inventory development in a BioWare game, then I will gladly give you a cookie.

[Pwnsaur]

Soul Cool wrote...

This is why I shouldn't be posting at 5:45 am with no sleep from the previous night. Not reading the entire thread due ti impatience brought about by wanting to reply leads to this sort of failure. (Mine, not yours.)

No big deal, I've been there. (DEADLINES NOOO!!!)

Soul Cool wrote...
I would be perfectly fine with them including actual armor equipment options, instead of just 'accessories. I'd actually prefer a more detailed equipment system, instead of the entire sets we had in DA:O.

I could not agree more.

Soul Cool wrote...
Just DA 2, see above. A developer of BioWare's caliber should be able to implement an armor equipment system. They've done it several times before, and it doesn't seeme to have detracted from the overall experience. (Unless you hate spending time in menus.)

Agreed. BioWare has overcome more seemingly insurmountable obstacles. Again, I couldn't agree more.

Soul Cool wrote...
On the other hand, innovation for the sake of innovation is just as bad. If there's a reasonably well-worked out method of doing something, and no pressing (or demanding if you prefer) reason to make it better, innovation can become the enemy of itself.

Again, I could not agree more. Fable could be the most glaring example of this kind of 'innovation'. Although, in this instance, I believe BioWare could do much to improve the current system.

Soul Cool wrote...
Exhaustion and a total lack of common sense ("Hey, I should go to bed, I've been awake for over twenty-four hours now!") after a certain amount of time is such a wonderful experience.

I have been known to confound many a reader in a state of sleep deprivation. No big deal.

Soul Cool wrote...
As I understood it, I did. Not as you meant it, for which I must ask forgivness in this particular case.

No big deal.

Soul Cool wrote...
Oh, there's no question that I'm disillusioned. BioWare is a company like any other, driven by the bottom line whatever the employee's motivation may be or how well they do their job.

I think we understand eachother.

[pumpkinman13]

Here's a Question really addressed to the devs. Also SPOILERS related to the Achievements following, but nothing massive, pretty obvious stuff.



So whilst we can't totally change our companions' armours, we know we can upgrade them. My question is this:



Do they change appearance as we upgrade them? Eg go from leather overalls-> chain mail -> plate armour where applicable, maybe get a nice new vambrace, maybe some greaves etc etc That kind of stuff? Are the changes cosmetic or purely stat bonuses?

[The Elder King]

We don't know. Aveline changes her armor surely, because we saw her in two different type of armours, but we don't know if this is related to the upgrade.

[PinkShoes]

i was upset to but then i moved one. Its like they pick what they want to wear not you so they seem like real people now.

[Bode GodSend]

You know, this argument that no customization will ruin the game realy gets in my nerves... This is a bioware forum, one of the largest western rpg developers in the industry, so it's a fair assunption that people here are rpg fans... So how come no one mentioned planescape torment in regards to this particular topic? it's regarded as one of the greatest rpg's ever made, and not only did it not have customazation of your compaions armor, the player character did not even have a armor! So people please stop saying that no customazation = dragon age 2 worst game ever! that doenst make any sense whatsoever!



(sorry for the spelling mistakes, english is not my native language)

[Uzzy]

Because PS:T is regarded as one of the greatest RPG's ever made due to it's story and characters, not the combat.

[nightcobra]

either i'm blind or i'm seeing 4 different outfits for 1 character:devil:


 

[The Elder King]

The second and the fourth are the same, I believe, only soem colour difference.

[Uzzy]

That's 2 outfits. The armour is the same in the last three images, with the only differences being a palette swap and a scarf added.

[nightcobra]

hhh89 wrote...

The second and the fourth are the same, I believe, only soem colour difference.

not really, the orange sections are of different sizes and form than the red sections ont the other armor.

[The Elder King]

The 2nd adn the 3rd are different. The fist is the City Guard armor I believe, the second is another one, though they sharethe same model. Is like the Juggernaut armour and the Effourt armor in DA2.

[nightcobra]

Uzzy wrote...

That's 2 outfits. The armour is the same in the last three images, with the only differences being a palette swap and a scarf added.

that's incorrect, there's also the difference in the form of the pauldrons and the chest piece is very different to the other.

[The Elder King]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The second and the fourth are the same, I believe, only soem colour difference.

not really, the orange sections are of different sizes and form than the red sections ont the other armor.

I don't see it, but in the second image Aveline isn't a lot clear.

[Bode GodSend]

Uzzy wrote...

Because PS:T is regarded as one of the greatest RPG's ever made due to it's story and characters, not the combat.

And? whats your point?
 Dragon Age: Origins was great because of the story and characters, the combat was a little clumsy.
whats the point of having a lot of options of armors if they all look generic? defined costumes establish a sense of uniqueness to the companions, gives then more personality.

[nightcobra]

hhh89 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The second and the fourth are the same, I believe, only soem colour difference.

not really, the orange sections are of different sizes and form than the red sections ont the other armor.

I don't see it, but in the second image Aveline isn't a lot clear.

i'd say the second and fourth armors share a model but differ in textures (not just a color swap, more like the difference between cailan's armor and the juggernaut) while the 3rd is an entirely different model.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 09 février 2011 - 12:34 .

[Uzzy]

Bode GodSend wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

Because PS:T is regarded as one of the greatest RPG's ever made due to it's story and characters, not the combat.

And? whats your point?
 Dragon Age: Origins was great because of the story and characters, the combat was a little clumsy.
whats the point of having a lot of options of armors if they all look generic? defined costumes establish a sense of uniqueness to the companions, gives then more personality.

That PS:T didn't do character customisation in a way I liked either.

[Uzzy]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

That's 2 outfits. The armour is the same in the last three images, with the only differences being a palette swap and a scarf added.

that's incorrect, there's also the difference in the form of the pauldrons and the chest piece is very different to the other.

Yeah, my mistake. 3 outfits then! 2nd and 4th pic are the same armour.

[The Elder King]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The second and the fourth are the same, I believe, only soem colour difference.

not really, the orange sections are of different sizes and form than the red sections ont the other armor.

I don't see it, but in the second image Aveline isn't a lot clear.

i'd say the second and fourth armors share a model but differ in textures (not just a color swap, more like the difference between cailan's armor and the juggernaut) while the 3rd is an entirely different model.

I can agree on that, I want to know why Aveline can change from the second to the third, which are different. It could be that the armour varies in base of the number of upgrades you put in it, or for the timeskip.