Hi all, I recently completed a playthrough where I saved Loghain (my 1st time doing so). I already read previous posts on wikis on this, but I was a little bit confused and disappointed and just wanted to check if I was doing it wrong. Here's what happened:
- Hardened Alistair and arranged marriage with Anora (all ok)
- Defeated Loghain in a duel with Morrigan as champ (actually Morrigan was hilarious)
- Alistair got all whiny (I expected this, not so bad)
- But Loghain was also kinda whiny (this started being not ok to me)
- Then Anora became the real leader taking us into the final battle and the post-coronation (WTF)
Basically, I hoped that after saving Loghain, he and Alistair would pout for a bit...then man-up with a terrible vengeance. They didn't do that. If anything, it was Anora that manned-up, lead the charge, and really took care of business. Now, Anora's great, but she just emasculates both her dad and her new husband as a result. Is there a way to get Loghain and Alistar to, y'know, start acting more manly than Anora does please?
Conversely, killing Loghain actually brings out the best in everyone. Loghain took his execution like a Lion in Winter, standing proudly to the end. Anora has that 1 moment of weakness that really just highlights how strong she has been throughout, which actually brings out her character more. Alistair mans-up, does the Aragorn thing properly.
So did I do the Loghain ending wrong or is killing him just better? What are the consequences in Awakening please (I read that Loghain gives you some loot if he survives to the expansion)? Thanks for any pointers you may give.
Consequences of saving Loghain? I was confused
Débuté par
Zombie Chow
, janv. 16 2011 05:53
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#2
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:03
TJPags
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I only spared him once, and didn't marry Ali to Anora, but from what I remember, you did it right. Ali gets so pissy that he leaves your party for good.
Not sure if Anora was supposed to take over the ruler cutscenes (speech and all) but it might be intended - you make her Queen, after all, and Ali her husband - which means she has the authority, not him.
I do think killing him is better - I think he deserves it.
As for him giving you loot, I don't remember that - but I only did it once, so I may have just forgotten.
Not sure if Anora was supposed to take over the ruler cutscenes (speech and all) but it might be intended - you make her Queen, after all, and Ali her husband - which means she has the authority, not him.
I do think killing him is better - I think he deserves it.
As for him giving you loot, I don't remember that - but I only did it once, so I may have just forgotten.
#3
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:04
Persephone
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I wouldn't call Loghain whiny after you recruit him. What were you expecting, exactly?
If he survives through to the expansion, he has a kick ass cameo, gives ya loot AND cash. Even though...his Redeemer ending is one of the best ever IMO.
If he survives through to the expansion, he has a kick ass cameo, gives ya loot AND cash. Even though...his Redeemer ending is one of the best ever IMO.
#4
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:04
wizardryforever
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Well, saving Loghain is something that seems less fleshed out to me. Especially since he doesn't have much dialogue and costs you Alistair as a party member. Then there's the morale speech (normally given by Alistair) that Anora gives before the battle. I thought that was out of place. Anora is not a warrior, nor a general. Loghain is both, why not have him give the speech?
True, his dialogue is cool and insightful as to his motivations throughout the game (you can also ask him about Anora, what she was like as a child, etc), but he really doesn't warm up to you unless you shower him with gifts (he likes maps). So you feel cheated out of a meaningful experience with what should have been another cool party member.
As for Awakening, he shows up, gives you an update, and leaves for Orlais. Oh the irony. But I don't recall him giving you loot. Could be wrong. Other than that there is no recognition, so meh.
Oh, and you should listen to the banter that triggers between Loghain and Zevran. It's hilarious.
True, his dialogue is cool and insightful as to his motivations throughout the game (you can also ask him about Anora, what she was like as a child, etc), but he really doesn't warm up to you unless you shower him with gifts (he likes maps). So you feel cheated out of a meaningful experience with what should have been another cool party member.
As for Awakening, he shows up, gives you an update, and leaves for Orlais. Oh the irony. But I don't recall him giving you loot. Could be wrong. Other than that there is no recognition, so meh.
Oh, and you should listen to the banter that triggers between Loghain and Zevran. It's hilarious.
#5
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:06
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Persephone wrote...
I wouldn't call Loghain whiny after you recruit him. What were you expecting, exactly?
If he survives through to the expansion, he has a kick ass cameo, gives ya loot AND cash. Even though...his Redeemer ending is one of the best ever IMO.
What does he give you? I don't remember it well . . .as you can likely imagine.
#6
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:08
Persephone
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TJPags wrote...
Persephone wrote...
I wouldn't call Loghain whiny after you recruit him. What were you expecting, exactly?
If he survives through to the expansion, he has a kick ass cameo, gives ya loot AND cash. Even though...his Redeemer ending is one of the best ever IMO.
What does he give you? I don't remember it well . . .as you can likely imagine.
Stuff from the cache at Denerim. And a very nice weapon belonging to the former Commander of the Grey before Duncan.
#7
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:14
HolyAvenger
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My canon playthrough ending is Loghain redemption and it was quite epic. No thoughts about changing that at all...
#8
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:17
Persephone
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HolyAvenger wrote...
My canon playthrough ending is Loghain redemption and it was quite epic. No thoughts about changing that at all...
It's one of my favorite endings. And one I'll import into DA2. As soon as it comes out.
#9
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:39
CalJones
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Likewise. I don't recall Loghain whining at all. If you take him to camp after recruiting him (rather than go straight to Redcliffe) he does show quite a nice amount of dark humour.
#10
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:58
LobselVith8
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Zombie Chow wrote...
So did I do the Loghain ending wrong or is killing him just better? What are the consequences in Awakening please (I read that Loghain gives you some loot if he survives to the expansion)? Thanks for any pointers you may give.
You didn't go the ending wrong. When you speak to Loghain at camp, you can end up seeing there's a lot of different sides to him. It's pretty interesting to bring him with you back to Ostagar (if you have "Return to Ostagar" DLC) with Wynne as another companion because it really fleshes out his POV and a sub-plot involving Cailan. While Alistar has every right to be angry over Loghain being spared (because he blames him for what happened to Duncan and every Grey Warden at Ostagar) sparing him is no different than Sten or Zevran. You're giving him a chance to atone for his mistakes, and he comes through.
As for Awakening, he does give you loot, and he seems really at peace with everything that's going on, even going to Orlais. Even if you offer to try to help him out of it, he mans up and says it's not an issue. As for Alistair, he seems to have come to terms with the decision (as long as your Warden doesn't end up becoming Chancellor, that is) in Awakening.
#11
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 12:43
Graspiloot
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Does it matter whether you only bring him? Because in my first game that I decided to spare Loghain I sided with the templars and had to kill Wynne.
#12
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 03:14
CalJones
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It's just fun to hear him put Wynne in her place. When he's on his own he just sounds rather grumpy.
#13
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:27
Guest_Hanz54321_*
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This is going to read like verbal diarhea but I'm just going to write down examples as I think of them.
There's more to the Loghain Redemption path than just te choices you described.
Not killing Ser Cautherien is part of that. Her pleas for Loghain flush out his character some.
Marrying Alistair to Anora is important - you get a chance to talk to him before he leaves the party in which he admits he's not happy but he wishes you well. Later you talk to Eamon and if you ask why Alistair is still with you and not in protection Eamon states Alistair insists on gathering your allies. So you are told that Alistair DID man up and IS helping, just not in party.
Loghain steps up and drinks from the chalace, joining the order he swore were traitors. That's a big step right there in admitting he was wrong. If you travel with him for awhile before heading straight to endgame he is actually very affable if you choose the right conversation options. He's no "happy camper", but he makes it clear he had no intention of killing Anora, he did not mean for Cailan to die but Cailan insisted, and he was truly doing what he thought was best for Fereldan. He even admits that he was concerned his strategy was going to fail because his forces were spread to thin to fight the darkspawn after the civil war, but he saw no other way.
Loghain's conversations with other party members affect how he appears to. Sten, Shale, and Dog all make Loghain look better. Wynne, Leliana make him look worse.
And then there is the final battle with the archdemon. Loghain volunteers. If you simply say yes it is anti climactic. If you challenge him on it, he really spills his guts that he wants to do this not for glory, but for attonement.
At the end of all that, at the victory ceremony, you get another chance to talk to Alistair. Again if Loghain is dead and you choose the right conversation options, Alistair will flat out say he is not angry and still considers you a friend. If Loghain is alive . . . Alistair is still pissed,
So man cards all around if you spare Loghain with all the side dish options and dessert. But a simple sparing of the man and straight to endgame doesn't flush out his character much.
Forum Member KoP made this, and it about sums it up:
There's more to the Loghain Redemption path than just te choices you described.
Not killing Ser Cautherien is part of that. Her pleas for Loghain flush out his character some.
Marrying Alistair to Anora is important - you get a chance to talk to him before he leaves the party in which he admits he's not happy but he wishes you well. Later you talk to Eamon and if you ask why Alistair is still with you and not in protection Eamon states Alistair insists on gathering your allies. So you are told that Alistair DID man up and IS helping, just not in party.
Loghain steps up and drinks from the chalace, joining the order he swore were traitors. That's a big step right there in admitting he was wrong. If you travel with him for awhile before heading straight to endgame he is actually very affable if you choose the right conversation options. He's no "happy camper", but he makes it clear he had no intention of killing Anora, he did not mean for Cailan to die but Cailan insisted, and he was truly doing what he thought was best for Fereldan. He even admits that he was concerned his strategy was going to fail because his forces were spread to thin to fight the darkspawn after the civil war, but he saw no other way.
Loghain's conversations with other party members affect how he appears to. Sten, Shale, and Dog all make Loghain look better. Wynne, Leliana make him look worse.
And then there is the final battle with the archdemon. Loghain volunteers. If you simply say yes it is anti climactic. If you challenge him on it, he really spills his guts that he wants to do this not for glory, but for attonement.
At the end of all that, at the victory ceremony, you get another chance to talk to Alistair. Again if Loghain is dead and you choose the right conversation options, Alistair will flat out say he is not angry and still considers you a friend. If Loghain is alive . . . Alistair is still pissed,
So man cards all around if you spare Loghain with all the side dish options and dessert. But a simple sparing of the man and straight to endgame doesn't flush out his character much.
Forum Member KoP made this, and it about sums it up:
Modifié par Hanz54321, 16 janvier 2011 - 06:28 .
#14
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 06:53
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As to Awakening - never played it where Loghain was alive, but I've seen clips on YouTube if your character did and did not marry Anora. He's a really nice guy either way. As a father-in-law he's tops.
At that point in the story Loghain is happy that all is well in Fereldan and has accepted his "new assignment" in the Wardens with almost zen-like humor.
But again - the YouTubes choose the right conversation options.
At that point in the story Loghain is happy that all is well in Fereldan and has accepted his "new assignment" in the Wardens with almost zen-like humor.
But again - the YouTubes choose the right conversation options.
#15
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 07:50
CalJones
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One thing you don't get in the vanilla game is the friendship dialogues. Since Loghain has no personal quest, he stays at Warm even with 100 approval. However, ejoslin added a tweak to the Zevran Dialogue Fix mod (which actually fixes a lot more than Zevran's dialogues) which will make Loghain friendly above a certain approval, and then his friendly dialogues will trigger. For instance, he no longer brushes off the question about whether he would have killed Anora, but outright says Howe suggested it and of course he said no. It's worth installing if you're on PC.
#16
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 09:23
Zjarcal
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CalJones wrote...
For instance, he no longer brushes off the question about whether he would have killed Anora, but outright says Howe suggested it and of course he said no. It's worth installing if you're on PC.
Is this the only line that only triggers when Loghain is friendly? I'm looking at Loghain's dialog in the toolset right now and that's the only line so far that I've seen has the "If Loghain is Friendly" condition.
EDIT: NVMD, I just found a few others, specifically when you're marrying Anora.
Modifié par Zjarcal, 16 janvier 2011 - 09:23 .
#17
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 10:31
Graspiloot
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Why would they put those lines ingame if you can't get him to friendly?
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
#18
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 11:01
Ollymandias
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Does make extraordinary sense that ejoslin would put them back in for us though!
Ejoslin, you are a gentleman and a scholar. My thanks. Going to go and install your fixes, lovely modder.
Ejoslin, you are a gentleman and a scholar. My thanks. Going to go and install your fixes, lovely modder.
#19
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 11:11
EnchantedEyes1
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CalJones wrote...
One thing you don't get in the vanilla game is the friendship dialogues. Since Loghain has no personal quest, he stays at Warm even with 100 approval. However, ejoslin added a tweak to the Zevran Dialogue Fix mod (which actually fixes a lot more than Zevran's dialogues) which will make Loghain friendly above a certain approval, and then his friendly dialogues will trigger. For instance, he no longer brushes off the question about whether he would have killed Anora, but outright says Howe suggested it and of course he said no. It's worth installing if you're on PC.
I have never seen this! Now that I have a PC tomorrow I will definitely install this mod. Thank you ejoslin!
#20
Posté 16 janvier 2011 - 11:36
Zjarcal
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Ollymandias wrote...
Ejoslin, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
LOL! Ejoslin is a woman.
@Grasspiloot:
Sadly, there are MANY things in the game that were cut out at the last second due to budget constraints. It's a well known fact that pretty much everything post-landsmeet was rushed. The dark ritual scene is another thing that was supposed to be handled differently when you were at friendly or in love with Morrigan.
Modifié par Zjarcal, 16 janvier 2011 - 11:39 .
#21
Posté 17 janvier 2011 - 12:00
Ollymandias
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LOL! Ejoslin is a woman.
I'd sort of surmised that. That's the joke.
Additionally, the word "gentleman" has all sorts of associations in the English language which you do not find with any gender-neutral or exclusively female word. "Lady and a scholar" doesn't mean quite the same thing. "Gentlewoman and a scholar" just sounds awkward and confused.
#22
Posté 17 janvier 2011 - 12:23
HolyAvenger
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Hanz has put it better than me- I chose exactly the conversations and options he described and the scene before Loghain kills the archdemon really tugged at my heartstrings.
#23
Posté 17 janvier 2011 - 12:52
Zjarcal
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Hanz54321 wrote...
At the end of all that, at the victory ceremony, you get another chance to talk to Alistair. Again if Loghain is dead and you choose the right conversation options, Alistair will flat out say he is not angry and still considers you a friend.
While he is not angry anymore if Loghain is dead, he never says he still considers you a friend. In fact, the VO notes make it clear he doesn't really want much to do with you, even if Loghain is dead. For example if you choose to stay around to help Anora, the VO notes say that he's "less than enthused" by the idea of seeing you frequently in the future. All the other VO notes point in the same direction.
No dialog path leads to a different stance. The friendship itself is definitely broken.
#24
Posté 17 janvier 2011 - 06:35
Xephyr829
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Really ?! Does anybody know how it was supposed to be handled ?Zjarcal wrote...
Ollymandias wrote...
Ejoslin, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
LOL! Ejoslin is a woman.
@Grasspiloot:
Sadly, there are MANY things in the game that were cut out at the last second due to budget constraints. It's a well known fact that pretty much everything post-landsmeet was rushed. The dark ritual scene is another thing that was supposed to be handled differently when you were at friendly or in love with Morrigan.
Modifié par SpectreWarden91, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:36 .
#25
Posté 17 janvier 2011 - 06:46
Sarah1281
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What evidence is there of this? Alistair and Anora at the Landsmeet are both trying to become the ruling monarch. You refuse to pick and decide that they will rule jointly. This means that they have equal power (in theory although in practice it depends) and neither is the consort of the other. Why in the world would whether you kill Loghain or not have one or the other being the consort? All you do is let Anora have her way on the matter of Loghain's life.Not sure if Anora was supposed to take over the ruler cutscenes (speech and all) but it might be intended - you make her Queen, after all, and Ali her husband - which means she has the authority, not him.
Alistair gives all the speeces if Loghain is dead while Anora does it if he is alive. It is not because it's Queen Anora and Prince Alistair, it is because Alistair is feeling deeply betrayed, wants nothing to do with you, and turned his back on the Blight. Since Alistair won't do it, Anora has to. If Loghain is dead, Alistair knows you better and is on the front lines since he's the warrior so he does the speeches.
