1252 réponses à ce sujet

[pizoxuat]

David Gaider wrote...

pizoxuat wrote...
Isabela strikes me as a "blatant fanservice" kind of gal.

And how dare some fans like that, I suppose?

Well, I guess people can scold me for mentioning puritanism-- but listening to a bunch of people cluck their tongues in disapproval every time a character shows some thigh or some side boob sure starts to sound that way. I'd much rather someone just said her outfit looked bad, like "I would never wear that! Gawd, what is she thinking?" Which is probably what some people are saying, but I never said everyone feels this way. Christ. Make one broad generalization in response to a bunch of different people and everyone thinks you're talking about them personally.

I'm on the pro-Isabela's tunic dress side.  I was trying to say that I think her outfit is in-character for what we know of her, she doesn't seem like the kind of woman who minds people looking, and likes to get an eyefull herself.  I just want to be able to make friendly jokes about it in game.

I'm not generally opposed to fanservice.  I am pro-equal opportunity fanservice.

[Addai]

AlanC9 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
For a supposedly pragmatic and skilled duelist, she ought to know that protection in combat is necessary.

Wasn't the time to play that card back when DAO shipped and we saw the Dalish Leather armor for the first time?

And people very well have made the argument then; I wasn't on the boards around the time DAO released, so I wouldn't know. But I don't remember hearing people complain about it much since.

You should hang around our house.  I installed Practical Dalish Armor mod, the spousal unit made me take it off.  He and I have differing opinions on heroic cleavage/ heroic midriff. 

He's bitter about tmp's unisex leather armor mod, but that one is not budging!

Modifié par Addai67, 17 janvier 2011 - 05:38 .

[The Elder King]

Pwnsaur wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Just to know your opinion.  What do you think about Lewis and Tolkien? I know that you're talking about the writers in VG, but I'm interested anyway about them.

My opinion would be that they are brilliant.

Thanks for replying to my question.

In regards of the OP. I don't think there's a general attidute of Bioware to make all the women dressing in sexy and non practical outfit. Aveline have an heavy aurmor in Kirkwall, and Merril and Aveline doesn't show a lot of skin.
If someone is disturbed by Isabela's outfit, I hope that they're disturbed by Varric and Fenris outfits too. Their ouftits doesn't seem to me much more practical than Isabela's, especially Fenris one. And Varric's chest hair to me seems like fanservice, if you considere Isabela boobs and outfit fanservice.
Personally, I don't care a lot.Isabela's oufit shows a lot of skin, it's true, and probably I prefer if she has a more covered outfit, but I understand the reason because they dress her like this.  I've got more problems in ME2, and not because Jack, Miranda, Jacob and Thane had those oufits in general, but because when you go in space you can' stay half-naked or without a type of armour.
And in truth, even in DAO the elven light armour was showing a lot of skin, Even a lot of mage's outfit. In terms of reality, my mage should be istantly killed when he was hitten in melee, because he only have a vest.

[Xewaka]

AlanC9 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
For a supposedly pragmatic and skilled duelist, she ought to know that protection in combat is necessary.

Wasn't the time to play that card back when DAO shipped and we saw the Dalish Leather armor for the first time?
And people very well have made the argument then; I wasn't on the boards around the time DAO released, so I wouldn't know. But I don't remember hearing people complain about it much since.

I wasn't wasting so much time on the boards back then. Besides, I either used Drake armor or Duster armor on my rogues.

Addai67 wrote...
You should hang around our house.  I installed Practical Dalish Armor mod, the spousal unit made me take it off.  He and I have differing opinions on heroic cleavage/ heroic midriff. 
He's bitter about tmp's unisex leather armor mod, but that one is not budging!

You might convince me to actually fire up some mods. Would be about damn time, anyway.

Modifié par Xewaka, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:17 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Honestly, the fact that Isabela is always going to dress like Isabela, and someone can't switch her out into a dowdier set of armor just because is probably the thing I like most about the new inventory system.

Why?  Why does it matter to you what we do with Isabela?  As soon as we get the game, she's no longer your character.  She's our character.  Why do you favour limiting what we can do with her?

[Sigil_Beguiler123]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Honestly, the fact that Isabela is always going to dress like Isabela, and someone can't switch her out into a dowdier set of armor just because is probably the thing I like most about the new inventory system.

Why?  Why does it matter to you what we do with Isabela?  As soon as we get the game, she's no longer your character.  She's our character.  Why do you favour limiting what we can do with her?

Cause she isn't our character. We don't define her personality, we don't define what her goals are, we don't define what her past is. This has been the case since for basically any RPG where we have set-NPCs. The only difference is in DA:O and other such ones is that we could switch them into outfits that contradict who they are. For myself having the characters in unique outfits helps with roleplaying and establishing them as unique characters.

[TheMadCat]

Except clothes don't make a character more unique, they don't contradict who they are. Clothes are for a first impression, but once that first impression is done they become irrelevant to who the character is because you have a better understanding of what really defines and separates that character, which is personality.

[crimzontearz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Honestly, the fact that Isabela is always going to dress like Isabela, and someone can't switch her out into a dowdier set of armor just because is probably the thing I like most about the new inventory system.

Why?  Why does it matter to you what we do with Isabela?  As soon as we get the game, she's no longer your character.  She's our character.  Why do you favour limiting what we can do with her?

Note: this is merely a reply to your statement, it does not indicate my preference on inventory options.

in all honesty, YOUR character is not Isabela, nor varric, nor bethany...no..your character is Hawke and JUST hawke. Simply because they allow you to control directly the rest of your party for a purely gameplay oriented reason that does not mean they are your characters. They are not your characters anymore than any random npc controlled by a DM or ST and you do not have control over what they wear and equip do you? You may call it a staple of CRPGs but in reality it was a warping of PnP RPGs due to the circumstance that you are, indeed, only one person and not a whole group of friends playinga session.

As further reinforcement to my argument, if Isabela or anyone else but Hawke was really your character you should be able to choose their answers to any situations whereas, as you know, you can not. If Lelliana, for instance, had been your character in DAO you would have been able to make her react in any way you want to the corrupting of the sacred ashes but as you know you can not can you?

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Why?  Why does it matter to you what we do with Isabela?  As soon as we get the game, she's no longer your character.  She's our character.  Why do you favour limiting what we can do with her?

David Gaider is greedy and wants Isabela all to himself.

[Sigil_Beguiler123]

TheMadCat wrote...

Except clothes don't make a character more unique, they don't contradict who they are. Clothes are for a first impression, but once that first impression is done they become irrelevant to who the character is because you have a better understanding of what really defines and separates that character, which is personality.

While it isn't a universal, clothing can be something that can be influenced heavily be personality, background, etc. and can be contradictory to what the character is like.

To give a random example there is a character with burns across their body. They are self-conscious of this as such they tend to wear very concealing clothing. This is both a background trait and a personality trait. To simply switch the character into more revealing outfit contradicts this aspect of the character. 

It isn't just about giving us a first impression but to showcase the personality of the character beyond just their words. Be it clothing, fighting style, etc. They are all aspects of their personality showing through in different ways.

[TheMadCat]

Sigil_Beguiler123 wrote...
While it isn't a universal, clothing can be something that can be influenced heavily be personality, background, etc. and can be contradictory to what the character is like.

Heavily influenced by personality doesn't equate to matching their personality, people can wear whatever they like and to those who know nothing about them it can give a false impression, but to those who know them it does nothing to change their opinion of that individual.

To give a random example there is a character with burns across their body. They are self-conscious of this as such they tend to wear very concealing clothing. This is both a background trait and a personality trait. To simply switch the character into more revealing outfit contradicts this aspect of the character.

Maybe, maybe not. What if they decide to test the waters one day, what if they decide the level of uncomfort created by the clothes outweighs the uncomfort of their appearence, what if they have a lover and a family. Could go on, point being I just gave scenarios where they change their clothing without actually changing their personality or background. There's nothing that locks people into wearing certain clothes with a few exceptions where it's externally forced upon you.

It isn't just about giving us a first impression but to showcase the personality of the character beyond just their words. Be it clothing, fighting style, etc. They are all aspects of their personality showing through in different ways.

Except there's nothing unique clothing can really do to influence our opinion of that particular character. It didn't matter if I stuck Leliana in the leather bra and skirt or massive armor, it was still Leliana, her character was not redefined, her personality did not shift, nothing there is anymore contradictory then putting BioWare's idea of a rogue on a battlefield. If we were forced to keep her in her Chantry clothing the entire game the only thing that would create is the notion that she is incredibly stupid for going into the battlefield like that.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Honestly, the fact that Isabela is always going to dress like Isabela, and someone can't switch her out into a dowdier set of armor just because is probably the thing I like most about the new inventory system.

Why?  Why does it matter to you what we do with Isabela?  As soon as we get the game, she's no longer your character.  She's our character.  Why do you favour limiting what we can do with her?

I think DG's talking as a writer there, rather than as a designer.

[Sigil_Beguiler123]

Certainly there can be changes but I think those should be matched by actual relevance in what the character is thinking. If you could change clothing and there be comments, dialogue, etc. to showcase this change in thinking then I be perfectly cool with us having complete control over it but since there isn't. I much prefer leaving it in the hands of the developers to craft a story where if there is changes that influence clothing changes that is acknowledged.

If you have a friend you have known a long time and they suddenly changed their entire style you would take not of that. There would likely be a reason behind, etc.

My point is that clothing isn't simply something irrelevant, that it has no impact on a person, those around them, etc. It is the same as mannerisms, quirks of personality, etc. Something to help establish who they are. That establishment I don't think should be thrown out as soon as one gets a better understanding of who they are.

That also the characters themselves would care about what they wear and it isn't just something for our benefit. That they have personalities, likes, etc. that clothing, weapons, etc. is one manner of showcasing it.

[Guitar-Hero]

TheMadCat wrote...

Except clothes don't make a character more unique, they don't contradict who they are. Clothes are for a first impression, but once that first impression is done they become irrelevant to who the character is because you have a better understanding of what really defines and separates that character, which is personality.

Sure personality is one of the things that makes us unique, but its so much more then that, its also choice and action, personality is reflected in the way we move, the way we talk, and the way we act 
the choice of clothing is still deeply affected by who we are, you have one style, i have another, otherwise everyone in dragon age might aswell be dressed the same, should make the devs. jobs a hell of a lot easier.  

[Lord Vallis]

General Warfield wrote...

As a disclaimer I am straight guy, but it pisses me off so much when I equip female characters with armour and it turns out it's just a bikini or something stupid like that. It really takes away the realism of a universe when I see people fighting in armour that should be sold in a sex shop.

Heres an example: Morrigan okay I see she was raised in a forst I understand that and it makes sense but what doesn't make sense is that she's rags in a from what I understand a very cold nation. Espiecally in the wilds. Why wouldn't she be wearing a heavy mage robe to keep warm?

I don't mind nudity in a video game if it makes sense though, an example of this is the lady of the forest if she wore clothes that'd just be stupid.

It's a fantasy roleplaying game, right?  By definition, nothing needs to make sense =P

Maybe Morrigan is having hotflashes.

[TheMadCat]

Sigil_Beguiler123 wrote...

Certainly there can be changes but I think those should be matched by actual relevance in what the character is thinking. If you could change clothing and there be comments, dialogue, etc. to showcase this change in thinking then I be perfectly cool with us having complete control over it but since there isn't. I much prefer leaving it in the hands of the developers to craft a story where if there is changes that influence clothing changes that is acknowledged.

But my point is is it necessary to evolve and portray that character? Because that's what it comes down to, the benefit of allowing us to customize and control our companions to the strength of evolving them throughout the story. Does it have some impact, sure. But is it any greater then minimal? I don't think so. You can portray the same character and show their development and growth regardless of the clothes they wear.

If you have a friend you have known a long time and they suddenly changed their entire style you would take not of that. There would likely be a reason behind, etc.

The first question being is it internal or external reasoning, 90% of the time it'll end up being external. New job, new lover, new found wealth, etc.

Steffen wrote..

Sure personality is one of the things that
makes us unique, but its so much more then that, its also choice and
action, personality is reflected in the way we move, the way we talk,
and the way we act 
the choice of clothing is still deeply affected
by who we are, you have one style, i have another, otherwise everyone in
dragon age might aswell be dressed the same, should make the devs. jobs
a hell of a lot easier.  

It's also affected by peer pressure, ease of access, necessity, enviorment and climate, culture, requirments, etc. Clothing is not always, a matter of fact very rarely, deeply decided by who we are.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

I think DG's talking as a writer there, rather than as a designer.

Even as a writer, there's no justification for his position.  Centuries of literary criticism hold that the work of an author is no longer the author's to control once it is in the hands of the reader, and that any impression the reader can draw from the literature is legitimate.

[AngelicMachinery]

Lord Vallis wrote...

General Warfield wrote...

As a disclaimer I am straight guy, but it pisses me off so much when I equip female characters with armour and it turns out it's just a bikini or something stupid like that. It really takes away the realism of a universe when I see people fighting in armour that should be sold in a sex shop.

Heres an example: Morrigan okay I see she was raised in a forst I understand that and it makes sense but what doesn't make sense is that she's rags in a from what I understand a very cold nation. Espiecally in the wilds. Why wouldn't she be wearing a heavy mage robe to keep warm?

I don't mind nudity in a video game if it makes sense though, an example of this is the lady of the forest if she wore clothes that'd just be stupid.

It's a fantasy roleplaying game, right?  By definition, nothing needs to make sense =P

Maybe Morrigan is having hotflashes.

Well considering she is Flemeth... menopause doesn't seem to be out of the question.

[Ziggeh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I think DG's talking as a writer there, rather than as a designer.

Even as a writer, there's no justification for his position.  Centuries of literary criticism hold that the work of an author is no longer the author's to control once it is in the hands of the reader, and that any impression the reader can draw from the literature is legitimate.

But they should certainly seek to guide interpretation, otherwise there would be little point to the endeavour.

[Atakuma]

Isabela's outfit is so silly it actually takes away from her character by turning her into a parody of herself.

[Ryzaki]

Atakuma wrote...

Isabela's outfit is so silly it actually takes away from her character by turning her into a parody of herself.

....Why do you think that?

Just curious is all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ziggeh wrote...

But they should certainly seek to guide interpretation, otherwise there would be little point to the endeavour.

Guide?  Sure.  Limit?  Absolutely not.

[Atakuma]

Ryzaki wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Isabela's outfit is so silly it actually takes away from her character by turning her into a parody of herself.

....Why do you think that?

Just curious is all.

The outfit only highlights a single aspect of her character. By designing the outfit the way they did, it gives of the impression that Isabela is all about sex, which just serves to inflate the "skank" persona she's been given on these boards.

Modifié par Atakuma, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:33 .

[TheMadCat]

Ryzaki wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Isabela's outfit is so silly it actually takes away from her character by turning her into a parody of herself.

....Why do you think that?

Just curious is all.

Because her character seems to be that of a sexual deviant, so they stick her in an outfit which has various sexual hintings and characteristics; knee high leather boots, a black thong, a long white shirt with "nothing" underneath, kind of really emphasizing the notion to an almost comical degree that she is a sexual deviant.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:34 .