242 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

SirOccam wrote...

And yet some people (my mother included) would be completely offended by the use of the word "damn." It's all relative, which is why we (society, collectively) should just call the whole thing off. Allow everything. Stop caring. Words only have what power we give them.

Heck no!

Such words are a valuable asset, it's good to have words that carry impact through invocation alone, that can seek to express emotion or can shock in both positive and negative ways. Expletives are valuable to comedy, rebellion and anyone who just stubbed their toe on a door.

It's a complicated relationship, because while I feel the ability to offend is actively important in a language, it will of course not always be done in a way we are ourselves comfortable with. But still, if we were to become blasé with all our current "swears", we'd simply have to invent new ones to express the things they currently do. I'm open to suggestions.

[SirOccam]

Ziggeh wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

And yet some people (my mother included) would be completely offended by the use of the word "damn." It's all relative, which is why we (society, collectively) should just call the whole thing off. Allow everything. Stop caring. Words only have what power we give them.

Heck no!

Such words are a valuable asset, it's good to have words that carry impact through invocation alone, that can seek to express emotion or can shock in both positive and negative ways. Expletives are valuable to comedy, rebellion and anyone who just stubbed their toe on a door.

It's a complicated relationship, because while I feel the ability to offend is actively important in a language, it will of course not always be done in a way we are ourselves comfortable with. But still, if we were to become blasé with all our current "swears", we'd simply have to invent new ones to express the things they currently do. I'm open to suggestions.

This is true, expletives do serve a valuable role in language. My suggestion is more an idealistic one (like "can't we all just get along?") more than a realistic one.

But there'd still be plenty of opportunity to offend...we'd just have to do it with the actual meaning of our words, and not simply their form. It's like the people who want to ban the n-word. Setting aside that it only makes the word that much more attractive to those who want to shock or offend, it's not like racism would magically go away, any more than banning one particular type of bullet would mean an end to all violence forever.

We have it sort of backwards. You can talk about sex all you like...as long as you don't use the dreaded "f-word." Even though "hump" or "screw" or a million others mean the exact same thing, and are fine. Same with "crap" and "sh*t". It's just...annoying. And arbitrary.

Modifié par SirOccam, 17 janvier 2011 - 04:07 .

[Ziggeh]

SirOccam wrote...
It's just...annoying. And arbitrary.

The "hard k" has a lot to do with many of them, but I think it's good that they're largely arbitrary. It means that they've been arrived at organically and that the applied meaning exists of it's own accord and not because of any connections they might conjure. I think they'd be far easier to rationalise and accept that way.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 17 janvier 2011 - 04:14 .

[SirOccam]

Stop being so...damn reasonable. I'm trying to rant here.

[PanosSmirnakos]

I liked both DA:O and the Witcher. IMO they are the best next-gen RPGs by far (for PC). I liked a little bit more DA:O though because of the companion based combat system and the deeper characters (although the main plot is weaker and kind of cliche). For me the Witcher had a more 18+ approach to everything, including swearing among other things. It gave more realism to the whole atmo of the game, because thugs talk like thugs. Anyway, both games are unique and very good at what they offer, with their own way, so I don't want them to look alike.

I don't agree completely with the user who said that DA:O was influenced by the Witcher but there is one major similarity which the Witcher introduced first and it's hard to miss. I'm talking about the concept of elves. The elves are also second class citizens, live in some kind of a ghetto place in human cities (alienage), and those who don't want to submit to human rules are in constant conflict with them and try to find and rebuild the lost and forgotten immortality and superior culture... I'm not saying that Bioware writers copied them, because they have created a very rich setting for DA. But, in all the other RPGs, novels and movies based in fantasy settings we all know what the classic stereotype for the elves is. Everything else, true, is different.

Modifié par PanosSmirnakos, 17 janvier 2011 - 04:46 .

[Ziggeh]

SirOccam wrote...

Stop being so...damn reasonable. I'm trying to rant here.

Haha, sorry, can't help myself. I've definitely been there though, I've made that point (once to a teacher back in secondary school. I totally earned that detention). It is ridiculous, I just think that's also a good thinng. I'm positively defined by cognitive dissonance.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 17 janvier 2011 - 05:08 .

[Leonia]

Cognative dissonance would make for a good band name, just saying.

[Ziggeh]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

although the main plot is weaker

Really? I only made it some way into chapter 3, but the plot at that point was something like "some dude stole some stuff you should probably care about, but we've yet to explain why." It seemed to use frustration at the plot as a driving force, it just left me feeling that either you needed to really read the books or they'd left the real plot on a bus and had to try and replace it quickly before a meeting. Like that Michel Gondry film with Jack Black and Ford Prefect.

Wildly off topic though. Happy to rant further in PMs if needs be.

PanosSmirnakos wrote...
For me the Witcher had a more 18+ approach to everything, including swearing among other things. It gave more realism to the whole atmo of the game, because thugs talk like thugs.

I honestly found The Witcher hilarious. It wields it's "mature" label like a kid with fake ID, it has all the elements but doesn't get what they're for. I guess you could call the explitves realistic on the basis that they're essentially used at random, but it came across as poor writing.

PanosSmirnakos wrote...
I'm talking about the concept of elves. The elves are also second class citizens, live in some kind of a ghetto place in human cities (alienage), and those who don't want to submit to human rules are in constant conflict with them and try to find and rebuild the lost and forgotten immortality and superior culture..

That's just a subset of Fantastic Racism. Blizzard did much the same with Orcs, it being elves was likely just a function of the player character types.

[Sandtigress]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Did you use euphemisms then? Can I look forward to my Lady Hawke call someone a nugsucker with her English accent?

Euphemisms are fine, and not uncommon even in everyday speech. The only problem with them is that you can start to look like you're going out of your way not to use the "real" language, especially when dealing with characters that are angry and/or lower class. Having some sailor call you a "fuzzy sock sucker" would be amusing, but also lame.

Jumping in late but I want to say how true this is.  I've read a lot of fantasy in my day, and the best books are the ones where the "made-up" words felt natural to the setting.  If you're coming up with new vocabulary to use just for the heck of it when real speech would work too, its awkward and feels like you're trying too hard.  It's a pretty fine balance between language that helps immersion and language that breaks it, and personally I think Bioware did a pretty good job.  I love the derogatory term "knife-ears" for the elves, for instance - it feels different and yet makes total sense in the setting.

[PanosSmirnakos]

@ Ziggeh



No need to defend till death DA:O my friend. As I said, from these 2 great RPGs, I liked DA:O more. But yes, my opinion is that the Witcher is more mature, darker with a not so generic main plot (like an order of heroes who unite the land, gather armies and kill the mindless evil beasts a la Tolkien) than DA:O. Maybe it's because I prefer more dark fantasy settings. Planescape Torment and the expansion of NeverWinter Nights 2, Mask of the Betrayer are my favorite RPGs story-wise. But that's just me. Also more mature and realistic (so better for me) is the artistic direction of the Witcher. I hated the ugly and cartoony massive plate armors with the gigantic shoulder pads, the enormous 2-handed weapons, the ugly mage robes / hats and the lifeless cities / villages of DA:O... Both games have their own pros and cons, I think. DA:O was a more pure old-school RPG gameplay-wise though. Anyway, I don't want to go more off-topic and make this thread into a Witcher VS DA:O debate. I liked both, I'm lucky as a role playing gamer to have more choices I guess.

[Ziggeh]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

No need to defend till death DA:O my friend.

Hmm? Were they in conflict? I just disliked the witcher (and it's use of language, "genetic", harhar), not sure that has anything to do with my opinion of da:o.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 17 janvier 2011 - 05:46 .

[PanosSmirnakos]

Ziggeh wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

No need to defend till death DA:O my friend.

Hmm? Were they in conflict? I just disliked the witcher (and it's use of language, "genetic", harhar), not sure that has anything to do with my opinion of da:o.

Although you quote specific sentences from my posts to make your point, let's agree that we have different tastes in what is mature or rich story-wise. Many ppl found Witcher corny or cheesy, or whatever, other ppl (like me) found it great, but that's why opinions exist. As I said I liked both games, but for different reasons.

[Ziggeh]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

let's agree that we have different tastes in what is mature or rich story-wise. Many ppl found Witcher corny or cheesy, or whatever, other ppl (like me) found it great, but that's why opinions exist.

"Great" I can't debate, of course. Mature and rich though? Not something I can agree is a matter of taste on that front, but as I said, not the place.

[Osena109]

 For the sake of all that is good in the World  please drop the word sod or sodding and sod it all  and use the proper F-bomb this time around   F-bomb just roll's off the tongue ever so lighty lmao

[WilliamShatner]

Swearing ≠ mature.



Infact in 99% of cases regarding video games it is deeply immature and childish.

[Osena109]

 I know full  Aria T'Loak  droped the F-bomb  few times and it was all well and good[/b]

[Dasher1010]

So we won't have a foul mouthed character who's name is a curse word who talks like this



****: **** you, ************! Now ram it all the way up your ******* **** until it comes out your ******* mouth. Then you can go to **** you ******* ******!



Best character ever!

[Dellingr]

Osena109 wrote...

 For the sake of all that is good in the World  please drop the word sod or sodding and sod it all  and use the proper F-bomb this time around   F-bomb just roll's off the tongue ever so lighty lmao

I think the issue is that "sod" doesn't have quite the explosive gutteral sound one wants from one's swear words

YMMV of course, but BSG's "frack" has a much nicer swearier sound to it than Farscape's "frell" (though it's also because frell sounds like hell, a much tamer swearword than than the one it's an equivalent of).

I'd suggest "rutting" as an alternative to sodding if the f-word is off the table, though that also lacks in punch, or make up a nice punchy dwarven word to stand in, Farscape used a laundry list of offensive word equivalents up to one for the feminine c-word (and there were some very unrefined characters on farscape) and maintained an MA15 rating (except the first season, which had some slightly-too-realistic drug use) while coming off as a mature (if very screwed up) piece of television entertainment

[SirGladiator]

Im definitely in favor of using good language, DAO style. The bad language in ME2 was very poorly done, as someone else already referenced, bad language doesn't make you mature, it makes you immature. I like how the writing in DAO displayed an intelligence and depth, instead of sinking to the pathetic levels that we occasionally see elsewhere. So definitely be mature, use intelligent language, like we saw in DAO. Thats my preference.

[Liablecocksman]

SirGladiator wrote...

Im definitely in favor of using good language, DAO style. The bad language in ME2 was very poorly done, as someone else already referenced, bad language doesn't make you mature, it makes you immature. I like how the writing in DAO displayed an intelligence and depth, instead of sinking to the pathetic levels that we occasionally see elsewhere. So definitely be mature, use intelligent language, like we saw in DAO. Thats my preference.

While I agree that usage of expletives does not equate maturity, how do you appear at the conclusion that expletives themselves denote immaturity?

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:04 .

[Pwnsaur]

BioWare just needs to be careful not to reawaken the Bubonic Plague, and subsequently the demonic dragon Geldon.

Modifié par Pwnsaur, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:19 .

[GameBoyish]

David Gaider wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
by "we" I'm assuming you mean the DA
team......because the ME team uses cluster F-bombs like they7 are going
out of style thanks to jack

Of course. Different creative teams completely. I wish I could use expletives like the ME team can-- but a post-modern setting allows for very different things (and comes with its own limitations, I suppose).

And Jack was ****ing awesome.

Jack IS ****ING AWESOME. Ink and profanity...

[Wynne]

Cuthlan wrote...

Actually, I think it is silly that either would be considered offensive,
but the feminine "C" word is certainly offensive to some women,
especially in the States. I think it must have something to do with the
actually mechanics of the word striking a strange chord with them
mentally... there are other words that mean essentially the same thing,
yet that word somehow upsets them more.
...
What I intended was that it was silly that it was more insulting than the others. At least I feel it is. The only reason I can figure out why it is considered more offensive is one or more variations of "just because".

You might want to think about keeping contact with women who can express themselves better, as I find it incredibly easy to say "because normally when someone says 'c**t' they mean something unpleasant directed at an individual woman specifically, whereas men are often enough called 'p***ies', and vagina is considered to be a medical term and thus obviously no offense is intended by its mere use."

Jazharah wrote...

So I can say ****, ****, vagina, and snatch but not c**t?
English speaking people are silly. Actually, I don't know of any other language where there's such a fuss over profanity.

EDIT: oh.. guess I couldn't say those words after all LOL. Even worse.

I'm sure you didn't intend offense, but that's quite a broad generalization there. After all, not all English-speaking people agree with the fuss over profanity. Some think it's ridiculous; in fact, a lot of people do. But the intention with which certain words are typically said makes a difference. There is also the fact that the words c**t and **** require a greater expellation of air, which may be read as emphasis or contempt, similar to spitting.

You make me wonder if I can say "kut," "trut," or "neuk" on these forums.

David Gaider wrote...

Of course. Different creative teams completely. I wish I
could use expletives like the ME team can-- but a post-modern setting
allows for very different things (and comes with its own limitations, I
suppose).

And Jack was ****ing awesome.

Indeed she was! 

Loved the talk about dev meetings, btw. Made me smile. I adore Sheryl Chee.

[RosaAquafire]

Personally? I swear like a m*f*ing sailor. Every third word, swear to god. I can't describe how many times I need to reword posts here because I just naturally throw f-bombs around like I'm trying to cause a nuclear holocaust Just how I talk.

But that doesn't mean my characters do.

Voice is a huge part of whether it's appropriate in my mind. I always feel it's awkward when a character on network TV who should logically be peeling paint with their mouths can't come up with anything saltier than "son of a *****." Of course, something like Deadwood is equally awkward. The choice to have a character swear or not is really all about them and their voice -- this is why I liked Jack so much.

For games that handled swearing well, I liked the swearing in the Assassin's Creed games. There's about 5 f-bombs per game. Most are used as part of Desmond's voice, which I really enjoyed, because like it or not, that's what real modern people talk like.

The one that really stood out though was where one character is losing his mind and jumping into the memories of all his ancestors, and babbling about things that each of them see, and he says "the soprano is so, so beautiful. She's crying while I **** her." It really shocked me, but in a really good way. Despite there being other f-bombs, that one stood out.

Just some musings.

[Jazharah]

Wynne wrote...
*snip*
You make me wonder if I can say "kut," "trut," or "neuk" on these forums.
*snip*

So much for wonder... 

You made me spit my drink, too. That was cautious and impactful lmao.