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[TJPags]

wulfsturm wrote...

Calla S wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...
Yeah? That's great. You get three square meals a day and a visit from your family every once in a while.

In prison.

That comparison is very apt, as opposed to the one about the N*zis. It is rather like a prison. That said, would you condone letting all of the prisoners free (murderers, rapists, et cetera) due to the fact that they're being woefully repressed?

Did you really just compare people like Wynne to murderers, rapists, and the like? And what about the children in the tower? What about them? Are they rapists and murderers as well?

How about Uldred, and his gang?
How about the gang of blood mages we run into the the slums of denerim? 
Or the ones in the Brecilian forest?
Or the innocent child Connor, who basically slaughtered an entire castle and half a village?

[Dhiro]

wulfsturm wrote...

Calla S wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...
Yeah? That's great. You get three square meals a day and a visit from your family every once in a while.

In prison.

That comparison is very apt, as opposed to the one about the N*zis. It is rather like a prison. That said, would you condone letting all of the prisoners free (murderers, rapists, et cetera) due to the fact that they're being woefully repressed?

Did you really just compare people like Wynne to murderers, rapists, and the like? And what about the children in the tower? What about them? Are they rapists and murderers as well?

This don't change the fact that they still can turn into abominations. Connor, remember? Wynne, when was angry, set a boy on fire. He deserved it, but I take you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not happier than you about the children and Wynnes locked in the tower, but ignore the fact that they can turn into monsters and kill everybody won't solve anything.

[Brockololly]

I just really, really, really hope the Templars and Chantry aren't completely painted as terrible religious zealots and jerks in DA2. It seems to be an easy avenue to paint religious types as misguided villains in all sorts of fiction and Origins did a decent job of not falling into that.



Show them doing some shady stuff, sure. But also show the Chantry and Templars doing some "good" stuff too.

[Dave of Canada]

Dhiro wrote...

Dave, can I touch your might avatar-beard? :<

As long as you do it fanatically.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 17 janvier 2011 - 05:46 .

[Maria Caliban]

Dhiro wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Poor Templars, so misunderstood. I thought the Chantry and the Templars were decent people* in Dragon Age, but they represent THE MAN and remind others of Christianity, so they're evil oppressors.

*Save for their religious persecution of desire spirits.

Persecution of... desire spirits?

No. Don't explain it. I just... no.

It's okay. It's so much easier to shut your ears to the truth than empathize with innocent spirits of desire.

[Dhiro]

Brockololly wrote...

I just really, really, really hope the Templars and Chantry aren't completely painted as terrible religious zealots and jerks in DA2. It seems to be an easy avenue to paint religious types as misguided villains in all sorts of fiction and Origins did a decent job of not falling into that.

Show them doing some shady stuff, sure. But also show the Chantry and Templars doing some "good" stuff too.

Yes. We saw a lot of sides of the Chantry. Yes, there's corruption, but there's still good people in the Chantry.

[wulfsturm]

Dhiro wrote...

This don't change the fact that they still can turn into abominations. Connor, remember? Wynne, when was angry, set a boy on fire. He deserved it, but I take you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not happier than you about the children and Wynnes locked in the tower, but ignore the fact that they can turn into monsters and kill everybody won't solve anything.

Yeah? With that logic, we as human beings can all be murderers, rapists, and raving lunatics because we are what we are.

Should we throw you in a prison because you may turn into a murderer?

[Dhiro]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Dave, can I touch your might avatar-beard? :<

As long as you do it fanatically.

I wouldn't do it in any other fashion. *TOUCH*

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Poor
Templars, so misunderstood. I thought the Chantry and the Templars were
decent people* in Dragon Age, but they represent THE MAN and remind
others of Christianity, so they're evil oppressors.

*Save for their religious persecution of desire spirits.

Persecution of... desire spirits?

No. Don't explain it. I just... no.

It's okay. It's so much easier to shut your ears to the truth than empathize with innocent spirits of desire.

You do like your semi-naked purple ladies, don't you? Very well, I guess they deserve love, too.

[Dhiro]

wulfsturm wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

This don't change the fact that they still can turn into abominations. Connor, remember? Wynne, when was angry, set a boy on fire. He deserved it, but I take you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not happier than you about the children and Wynnes locked in the tower, but ignore the fact that they can turn into monsters and kill everybody won't solve anything.

Yeah? With that logic, we as human beings can all be murderers, rapists, and raving lunatics because we are what we are.

Should we throw you in a prison because you may turn into a murderer?

I don't think I can shoot fireballs from my eyes or lightning from my ass, so... no.

[TJPags]

wulfsturm wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

This don't change the fact that they still can turn into abominations. Connor, remember? Wynne, when was angry, set a boy on fire. He deserved it, but I take you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not happier than you about the children and Wynnes locked in the tower, but ignore the fact that they can turn into monsters and kill everybody won't solve anything.

Yeah? With that logic, we as human beings can all be murderers, rapists, and raving lunatics because we are what we are.

Should we throw you in a prison because you may turn into a murderer?

And if we did, would you blame the prison guards, or the people who sent her there?

Remember - Alistair was training to be a Templar, and not by choice.  Some don't choose that life.  And some aren't bad people.

[Calla S]

wulfsturm wrote...
Yeah? With that logic, we as human beings can all be murderers, rapists, and raving lunatics because we are what we are.

Should we throw you in a prison because you may turn into a murderer?

Mages are dangerous by default if their abilities go unchecked. Some poor kid grows up having their parents hide their abilities. One day, he sets fire to their home, killing everyone inside, as well as spreading the fire throughout that part of the village. That could have been kept from happening had the child known how to control his ability. They are keeping people safe from harm that may or may not be avoidable, but the fluctuation of power IS inevitable. Murders and the like are not.

Modifié par Calla S, 17 janvier 2011 - 05:52 .

[wulfsturm]

Dhiro wrote...

I don't think I can shoot fireballs from my eyes or lightning from my ass, so... no.

Sigh.

You're losing something in translation here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

I'm not calling you a Mage, I'm asking whether we should lock you up in a prison because you may turn into a murdering psycho, get my drift?

[Maria Caliban]

wulfsturm wrote...

No one is claiming that the Templars are "merely evil orverlord types."

You compared them to n**** and the SS. Yes, you've characterized them as evil overlord types. This is why Godwin's Law exists. When you compare a fictional group that acts in a problematic but understandable manner to a group that rendered down Jews, Gypsies, and enemies of the state into soap and candles, you punt your credibility out the window.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 janvier 2011 - 05:52 .

[Morroian]

Dhiro wrote...

This don't change the fact that they still can turn into abominations. Connor, remember? Wynne, when was angry, set a boy on fire. He deserved it, but I take you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not happier than you about the children and Wynnes locked in the tower, but ignore the fact that they can turn into monsters and kill everybody won't solve anything.

There are other ways, children could be taught from an early age, mages themselves are the best people to fight abominations so why shouldn't they rather than the chantry be in charge mages as a whole, running schools, forming a paramilitary wing to deal with abominations etc. Mages still subject to restrictions and laws because they can be dangerous but with more of an element of self determination.

Also we have the example of Rivain which can hardly be overrun by abominations.

Modifié par Morroian, 17 janvier 2011 - 05:54 .

[Dhiro]

wulfsturm wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I don't think I can shoot fireballs from my eyes or lightning from my ass, so... no.

Sigh.

You're losing something in translation here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

I'm not calling you a Mage, I'm asking whether we should lock you up in a prison because you may turn into a murdering psycho, get my drift?

Hm. That's a good point. Still, I won't change what I said. Mages are better in the tower.

[wulfsturm]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You compared them to n**** and the SS. Yes, you've characterized them as evil overlord types. This is why Godwin's Law exists. When you compare a fictional group that acts in a problematic but understandable manner to a group that rendered down Jews, Gypsies, and enemies of the state into soap and candles, you punt your credibility out the window.

I wasn't aware that you had to be an "evil overlord type" to be able to repress another group of people. But what do I know, I'm just comparing Templars to real-world organizations and events.

I think it's called history, but I may nor may not be wrong.

[elfdwarf]

templar are raw military of chantry and oppressors of other types religious groups .

chantry only cares for normal humen

i have seen action of templar and chantry that why they are my enemies

[Dhiro]

Morroian wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

This don't change the fact that they still can turn into abominations. Connor, remember? Wynne, when was angry, set a boy on fire. He deserved it, but I take you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not happier than you about the children and Wynnes locked in the tower, but ignore the fact that they can turn into monsters and kill everybody won't solve anything.

There are other ways, children could be taught from an early age, mages themselves are the best people to fight abominations so why shouldn't they rather than the chantry be in charge mages as w whole, Running schools, forming a paramilitary wing to deal with abominations etc. Mages still subject to restrictions cause they can be dangerous but with more of an element of self determination.

Also we have the example of Rivain which can hardly be overrun by abominations.

Yes, that's true. But eventually, one people will slip. And that's all it takes. One slip, less focus than perfection... and you're a mindless beast. But this don't change what you said. What I'm trying to say is: the Circle is the best solution? No. But blaming the Templars and saying they're just opressing the mages isn't true, either.

[Calla S]

elfdwarf wrote...
templar are raw military of chantry and oppressors of other types religious groups .
chantry only cares for normal humen
i have seen action of templar and chantry that why they are my enemies

Let's just completely ignore the kind-hearted Templar who spent many weeks trying to figure out what was going wrong and how he could help in an elven Alienage.

*sighs*

[Reaverwind]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Persecution of... desire spirits?

No. Don't explain it. I just... no.

It's okay. It's so much easier to shut your ears to the truth than empathize with innocent spirits of desire.

Now, come on, everyone knows those minxes are far from innocent, and enjoy being dominated.

[Morroian]

Dhiro wrote...

Yes, that's true. But eventually, one people will slip. And that's all it takes. One slip, less focus than perfection... and you're a mindless beast. But this don't change what you said. What I'm trying to say is: the Circle is the best solution? No. But blaming the Templars and saying they're just opressing the mages isn't true, either.

Mages slip even under the chantry. And yes the fact that they are repressing mages is a fact.

Also if mages have more of an element of self determination then there's less chance of unrest happening such as Uldred and which seems to be leading to the being conflict in DA2.

[Dave of Canada]

wulfsturm wrote...

I think it's called history, but I may nor may not be wrong.

It's called Godwin's Law, a horrible way to argue.

[Ziggeh]

wulfsturm wrote...

I'm not calling you a Mage, I'm asking whether we should lock you up in a prison because you may turn into a murdering psycho, get my drift?

Two problems with this analogy: firstly, you're average psychopath would struggle to take on entire armed communities on their own and secondly it's not a case of a moral lapse or extreme personality. They are (presumably, I'm not so clear on this point, the existence of the Tevinter Empire makes me believe posession is more complex) potentially a destructive monster, at any given time, without the subjects intent.

It's also of social value that mages be skilled in using their powers, at the same time as this increasing the threat they represent, so centralised education that doubles as security seems relatively sensible. If morally problematic, but that's sorta the point.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[Sharn01]

Calla S wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...
Yeah? With that logic, we as human beings can all be murderers, rapists, and raving lunatics because we are what we are.

Should we throw you in a prison because you may turn into a murderer?

Mages are dangerous by default if their abilities go unchecked. Some poor kid grows up having their parents hide their abilities. One day, he sets fire to their home, killing everyone inside, as well as spreading the fire throughout that part of the village. That could have been kept from happening had the child known how to control his ability. They are keeping people safe from harm that may or may not be avoidable, but the fluctuation of power IS inevitable. Murders and the like are not.

I am getting kind of tired of the overstated dangers of magic.  At some point in Thedas's history the first mages came about, they had no one to teach them and no organization to keep them in check and yet somehow the world didnt end, somehow these mages learned their magic and taught it to new mages.  You cant punish people for what they can possibly do, you have to punish people based on what they actually do. 

I also think that the dangers of magic where intentionally overstated in DA:O to emphasize the fact that there where some dangers, not to make people think that every mage in exsistance is at some point going to become an abomination.  If I had to take an educated guess, the most frequent cause of abominations is probably from the circles testing, where they force a confrontation with a demon, a confrontation that may never have taken place in the mages lifetime otherwise, and if it did the mage may have been ready for it later in life.

Modifié par Sharn01, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[Maria Caliban]

Brockololly wrote...

I just really, really, really hope the Templars and Chantry aren't completely painted as terrible religious zealots and jerks in DA2. It seems to be an easy avenue to paint religious types as misguided villains in all sorts of fiction and Origins did a decent job of not falling into that.

Show them doing some shady stuff, sure. But also show the Chantry and Templars doing some "good" stuff too.

Seconded.