364 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

filaminstrel wrote...

It's more like if a person was born with a nuclear bomb inside of him, which could go off at any moment should he lose concentration. He could also use this bomb as a directed energy WMD on his fellows, should he give in to temptation.

That's how I managed to get this across to a friend of mine, I started asking how a society would handle it if 1% of the population had a pancreas that could explode at any time. Doesn't cover the fact that said pancreas would need to have a vindictive personality and a military application and a bunch of other stuff, but it worked for him.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:21 .

[Morroian]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Two problems with this analogy: firstly, you're average psychopath would struggle to take on entire armed communities on their own and secondly it's not a case of a moral lapse or extreme personality. They are (presumably, I'm not so clear on this point, the existence of the Tevinter Empire makes me believe posession is more complex) 

Also Rivain whose mages willingly consort with spirits. 

Rivaini mages and other apostate traditions might have tests that are every bit as hard as the Harrowing.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be tests just that there should be more self determination and freedom while still having mages be subject to strict conditions.

[Dave of Canada]

Morroian wrote...

she's probably going to be an antagonist in the game.

I'm going to assume possible antagonist, unless she hates you and your family enough that she'll refuse to work with you ever.

[steelfire_dragon]

Meredith is a witch and an apostate.
Burn her at the stake with extra sauce

[Dave of Canada]

steelfire_dragon wrote...

Meredith is a witch and an apostate.
Burn her at the stake with extra sauce

What is this I don't even

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:23 .

[Dhiro]

Dave of Canada wrote...

steelfire_dragon wrote...

Meredith is a witch and an apostate.
Burn her at the stake with extra sauce

What is this I don't even

She turned me into a Griffon!

I got better.

[Risax]

Dhiro wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

steelfire_dragon wrote...

Meredith is a witch and an apostate.
Burn her at the stake with extra sauce

What is this I don't even

She turned me into a Griffon!

I got better.

Monty Phython reffrences!

[David Gaider]

Sharn01 wrote...
I am getting kind of tired of the overstated dangers of magic.  At some point in Thedas's history the first mages came about, they had no one to teach them and no organization to keep them in check and yet somehow the world didnt end, somehow these mages learned their magic and taught it to new mages.

That is, of course, ignoring the fact that the world back then was a much more dangerous place. An abomination tearing up the countryside was simply something that happened and needed to be dealt with. You also had an empire ruled by mages that oppressed everyone else, and (if Chantry dogma is to be believed) started the Blight.

I think an argument can definitely be made that magic is inherently dangerous, yes.

You cant punish people for what they can possibly do, you have to punish people based on what they actually do.

I guess it depends on what you consider punishment. The Chantry looks on the Circle as a mercy -- what is the alternative, after all? The mages would say "let us watch ourselves", but then we're back to the specter of the magisters. And what if there are mages who don't care for the idea of other mages coming after them, either? Would that not place them in the position of being oppressed, as well?

There is no easy answer, here, which is just as I like it.

[Dhiro]

I have to confess, that's one of the first interesting conversations (as in discussions, Varric's chest hair owns any Mage vs Templar silliness by far) I have in this forum. I'm liking it :<

Modifié par Dhiro, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morroian wrote...

she's probably going to be an antagonist in the game.

I'm going to assume possible antagonist, unless she hates you and your family enough that she'll refuse to work with you ever.

If she acts against Hawke or presents an obstacle, she's an antagonist. She does specifically this at the beginning of the game.

She's also a possible ally.

[Dave of Canada]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If she acts against Hawke or presents an obstacle, she's an antagonist. She does specifically this at the beginning of the game.

Didn't read anything about her, so she does oppose Hawke? That I didn't know.

[David Gaider]

Sharn01 wrote...
Should I be locked up because I know how to do this, or should law enforcement at least wait until I have posed some threat before arresting me?

That's an argument with blood magic, yes, but not with abominations. The mere fact that you possess this knowledge does not mean you will go on a killing rampage against your will. The problem with mages is that even those with the best intentions can still present a threat. It complicates the issue precisely because there is no set criteria for who is at risk.

[Dhiro]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morroian wrote...

she's probably going to be an antagonist in the game.

I'm going to assume possible antagonist, unless she hates you and your family enough that she'll refuse to work with you ever.

If she acts against Hawke or presents an obstacle, she's an antagonist. She does specifically this at the beginning of the game.

She's also a possible ally.

If there's a mage vs templar thing here, it may get complicated. If she does hate mages really, really much, I suppose we can maybe betray Bethany and get in Meredith's good side? But if WE are the mages, then things are less happy.

[TJPags]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If she acts against Hawke or presents an obstacle, she's an antagonist. She does specifically this at the beginning of the game.

Didn't read anything about her, so she does oppose Hawke? That I didn't know.

She apparently prevents him from entering Kirkwall when Hawke and family first arrive.

Whether she actually is preventing Hawke as opposed to just not letting anyone in - that may reflect a difference.

[Dave of Canada]

TJPags wrote...

She apparently prevents him from entering Kirkwall when Hawke and family first arrive.

Whether she actually is preventing Hawke as opposed to just not letting anyone in - that may reflect a difference.

Oh, that was what I believed as well. Considering how the dialogue in Witch Hunt seems to imply refugees in general aren't that welcome in Kirkwall.

[Drizzt ORierdan]

But the point of the Chantry being the "necessary evil" or "lesser evil" with its "police work" blinds the fact that they shape the ideas of the common people and have political influence in the land for its own benefit...

Modifié par Drizzt ORierdan, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:33 .

[pizoxuat]

Dhiro wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morroian wrote...

she's probably going to be an antagonist in the game.

I'm going to assume possible antagonist, unless she hates you and your family enough that she'll refuse to work with you ever.

If she acts against Hawke or presents an obstacle, she's an antagonist. She does specifically this at the beginning of the game.

She's also a possible ally.

If there's a mage vs templar thing here, it may get complicated. If she does hate mages really, really much, I suppose we can maybe betray Bethany and get in Meredith's good side? But if WE are the mages, then things are less happy.

It's important to realize that a mage can recognize the complexity of the problem they present as well.  After all, there were more factions in the Circle Tower than just "We are sinners, we submit fully to your authority" boot-lickers and "WE MUST RISE UP AND DESTROY THE CHANTRY" rebels. 

[TJPags]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TJPags wrote...

She apparently prevents him from entering Kirkwall when Hawke and family first arrive.

Whether she actually is preventing Hawke as opposed to just not letting anyone in - that may reflect a difference.

Oh, that was what I believed as well. Considering how the dialogue in Witch Hunt seems to imply refugees in general aren't that welcome in Kirkwall.

That's how I understand it currently as well - she's not lettin ANY refugees in.

Now, whether that makes her a literary antagonist or not - I'll leave it to people more knowledgeable on that subject.  But if this is how it goes down, I personally don't see her as "opposed" to Hawke.

[Sharn01]

David Gaider wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...
I am getting kind of tired of the overstated dangers of magic.  At some point in Thedas's history the first mages came about, they had no one to teach them and no organization to keep them in check and yet somehow the world didnt end, somehow these mages learned their magic and taught it to new mages.

That is, of course, ignoring the fact that the world back then was a much more dangerous place. An abomination tearing up the countryside was simply something that happened and needed to be dealt with. You also had an empire ruled by mages that oppressed everyone else, and (if Chantry dogma is to be believed) started the Blight.

I think an argument can definitely be made that magic is inherently dangerous, yes.

You cant punish people for what they can possibly do, you have to punish people based on what they actually do.

I guess it depends on what you consider punishment. The Chantry looks on the Circle as a mercy -- what is the alternative, after all? The mages would say "let us watch ourselves", but then we're back to the specter of the magisters. And what if there are mages who don't care for the idea of other mages coming after them, either? Would that not place them in the position of being oppressed, as well?

There is no easy answer, here, which is just as I like it.

Forcing people into a life of imprisonment and slavery is punishment.  I am sure back when slavery was common in the real world there where a lot of slaves who where happy with their lot in life, as I am sure there where as many nice and pleasant masters as there where brutal and abusive ones, that doesnt mean that it wasnt a life forced on them with no choice of their own.  Not to mention the fact that the mages are not even allowed to love or have families, they are denied that right, if a relationship is discovered the mages are separated, and if a child is born in is taken from them.

In my eyes its a very easy answer,and that answer is that it is punishment.  I am not foolish enough to believe that there should not be a force dedicated to the protection of the people should a mage ever abuse their power or in the instance of one becoming and abomination.  But a force ready to act against a possible threat is far different then assuming they are a threat to begin with and treating them as such from the moment they are found to be mages.

[Dhiro]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

But the point of the Chantry being the "neccesary evil" or "lesser evil" with its "police work" blinds the fact that they shape the ideas of the common people and have political influence in the land for its own benefit...

It blinds? I'm full aware that the chantry people can be jerks, that doesn't mean they're all evil. That doesn't mean that priestess or that Reverend Mother can't be people that truly believe in the Maker and truly want to help people.

[TJPags]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

But the point of the Chantry being the "necessary evil" or "lesser evil" with its "police work" blinds the fact that they shape the ideas of the common people and have political influence in the land for its own benefit...

This is true, and it's why I don't like the Chantry itself.

But I don't personally take that and feel hatred for Templars as a whole.

[Dhiro]

pizoxuat wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morroian wrote...

she's probably going to be an antagonist in the game.

I'm going to assume possible antagonist, unless she hates you and your family enough that she'll refuse to work with you ever.

If she acts against Hawke or presents an obstacle, she's an antagonist. She does specifically this at the beginning of the game.

She's also a possible ally.

If there's a mage vs templar thing here, it may get complicated. If she does hate mages really, really much, I suppose we can maybe betray Bethany and get in Meredith's good side? But if WE are the mages, then things are less happy.

It's important to realize that a mage can recognize the complexity of the problem they present as well.  After all, there were more factions in the Circle Tower than just "We are sinners, we submit fully to your authority" boot-lickers and "WE MUST RISE UP AND DESTROY THE CHANTRY" rebels. 

True. And a mage can trust (thrust?) a Templar, but I think there's a extent a Templar can trust (thrust?) a mage. I'm not sure *sigh* I think that, with the right circunstances, we can be a ally of Meredith and mages. But I don't think we'll get to do this for free.

[Maria Caliban]

We don't know if the Maker is real or not. We don't know if any gods or divinities exist within Thedas. I suspect that something of what the Chantry teaches is true.



Sadly, the 'no heaven for you!' part is probably right.

[Ziggeh]

David Gaider wrote...

The mere fact that you possess this knowledge does not mean you will go on a killing rampage against your will. The problem with mages is that even those with the best intentions can still present a threat. It complicates the issue precisely because there is no set criteria for who is at risk.

Just how high is that risk? The Tevinter Empire makes me wonder, because placing mages in positions of authority just seems to be asking for demonic shenanigans, and for even the concept of a magocracy to get off the ground they either have a really harsh version of the Harrowing, or the threat is not as prevelant as the Chantry might suggest.