364 réponses à ce sujet

[bsbcaer]

Sharn01 wrote...

I am getting kind of tired of the overstated dangers of magic.  At some point in Thedas's history the first mages came about, they had no one to teach them and no organization to keep them in check and yet somehow the world didnt end, somehow these mages learned their magic and taught it to new mages.  You cant punish people for what they can possibly do, you have to punish people based on what they actually do. 

Saw your military post before I saw this one, so Im assuming that you're American (if not, Im sorry for the assumption on my end).  Anyways, that is exactly what the American government did in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s.

[Dhiro]

Maria Caliban wrote...

We don't know if the Maker is real or not. We don't know if any gods or divinities exist within Thedas. I suspect that something of what the Chantry teaches is true.

Sadly, the 'no heaven for you!' part is probably right.

I find interesting, like when Niall simply disappeared in the Fade. I wonder if he will go to somewhere or just make poof. Neither demons or spirits know anything about the Maker. I wonder if demons and spirits can die, as in old age. And if they go to somewhere when they are killed or waste themselfs (like Wynne's spirit).

[Dave of Canada]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

But the point of the Chantry being the "neccesary evil" or "lesser evil" with its "police work" blinds the fact that they shape the ideas of the common people and have political influence in the land for its own benefit...

And what do you want them to do? Encourage the idea that mages are good? The whole idea of telling people to intentionally hate mages is probably very helpful in routing apostates and maleficar out, a family wouldn't be able to trust his or her peers and there is less sympathizers in general.

We're seeing this from a metagame point of view and even then the lines are blurred, for these people the mage is a dangerous threat that has to be sealed up and the Chantry doesn't have to go very far to point out examples of what could possibly befall the people.

Redcliffe's Connor scenario could happen even more frequently because entire communites wouldn't see the problem with hiding a mage child, you'd have more people not fearing their child would turn into some monster. Not saying the Chantry's propaganda doesn't backfire on them, Connor being an example of a mother trying to hide the fact that her son is a mage, though there's no right or wrong decision here.

Political power also allows them to influence more things, the Chantry isn't this cruel monster that wants power for the sake of power. They go out and help people, rebuild stuff and shelter the poor and the weak. The Chantry isn't bad, it's just easy to see them as this greater evil than they truly are.

[Morroian]

Ziggeh wrote...

Just how high is that risk? The Tevinter Empire makes me wonder, because placing mages in positions of authority just seems to be asking for demonic shenanigans, and for even the concept of a magocracy to get off the ground they either have a really harsh version of the Harrowing, or the threat is not as prevelant as the Chantry might suggest.

Like I said above Rivain appears to be even more of a relevant example that the threat is not as great as implied. Tevinter is still a repressive society from the sound of it, but Rivain isn't.

[pizoxuat]

Dhiro wrote...

True. And a mage can trust (thrust?) a Templar, but I think there's a extent a Templar can trust (thrust?) a mage. I'm not sure *sigh* I think that, with the right circunstances, we can be a ally of Meredith and mages. But I don't think we'll get to do this for free.

I expect there to be a cost associated with any decision we make that affects the power balance between the Chantry and the mages.  I am hopeful that it will include more options than "total freedom" and "total restriction" just because my preference lies somewhere in the middle.  I think having mandatory mage training and the phylacteries is just good, common sense.

[Ziggeh]

Sharn01 wrote...
In my eyes its a very easy answer,and that answer is that it is punishment.  I am not foolish enough to believe that there should not be a force dedicated to the protection of the people should a mage ever abuse their power or in the instance of one becoming and abomination.  But a force ready to act against a possible threat is far different then assuming they are a threat to begin with and treating them as such from the moment they are found to be mages.

That almost entirely ignores the nature of mages and magic in the setting. A force dedicated to cleaning up the sticky mess that used to be an entire community doesn't place people out of danger.

[TJPags]

Dhiro wrote...

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

But the point of the Chantry being the "neccesary evil" or "lesser evil" with its "police work" blinds the fact that they shape the ideas of the common people and have political influence in the land for its own benefit...

It blinds? I'm full aware that the chantry people can be jerks, that doesn't mean they're all evil. That doesn't mean that priestess or that Reverend Mother can't be people that truly believe in the Maker and truly want to help people.

Sure.  But the way I see it, someone wrote the Chant - or edited it - as well as set up the doctrine of the Chantry.  Those are the ones, in my mind, who are suspect - not the everyday Chanters we see at the Chanters boards or in the chuches, or even the Revered Mother at any given Church.

Remember - one belief of the Chantry is that, when the Chant is spread to the entire world, the Maker will return to us - or look favorably on us again, or something similar.

It's the ones who decide HOW that should be accomplished who are, in my mind, suspect.

[Ziggeh]

filaminstrel wrote...

What if there were demonic shenanigans?

Well, I assume their were, but I'd assume it would be common knowledge if they were essentially run by demons, as the Chantry is pretty on the ball with propaganda.

[Dhiro]

TJPags wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

But the point of the Chantry being the "neccesary evil" or "lesser evil" with its "police work" blinds the fact that they shape the ideas of the common people and have political influence in the land for its own benefit...

It blinds? I'm full aware that the chantry people can be jerks, that doesn't mean they're all evil. That doesn't mean that priestess or that Reverend Mother can't be people that truly believe in the Maker and truly want to help people.

Sure.  But the way I see it, someone wrote the Chant - or edited it - as well as set up the doctrine of the Chantry.  Those are the ones, in my mind, who are suspect - not the everyday Chanters we see at the Chanters boards or in the chuches, or even the Revered Mother at any given Church.

Remember - one belief of the Chantry is that, when the Chant is spread to the entire world, the Maker will return to us - or look favorably on us again, or something similar.

It's the ones who decide HOW that should be accomplished who are, in my mind, suspect.

Yes, there is a possibility that the ones in the power are more jerks than usual. Also, even if the all-powerful chantry leader one was truly good, they just need a, let's say, really bad apple between their ranks to make things horrible.

[October Sixth]

Morroian wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Just how high is that risk? The Tevinter Empire makes me wonder, because placing mages in positions of authority just seems to be asking for demonic shenanigans, and for even the concept of a magocracy to get off the ground they either have a really harsh version of the Harrowing, or the threat is not as prevelant as the Chantry might suggest.

Like I said above Rivain appears to be even more of a relevant example that the threat is not as great as implied. Tevinter is still a repressive society from the sound of it, but Rivain isn't.

Given how little we know about Rivain, Connor seems like a more relevant example of what would happen in Ferelden if the Templars were disbanded.

[Sharn01]

David Gaider wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...
Should I be locked up because I know how to do this, or should law enforcement at least wait until I have posed some threat before arresting me?

That's an argument with blood magic, yes, but not with abominations. The mere fact that you possess this knowledge does not mean you will go on a killing rampage against your will. The problem with mages is that even those with the best intentions can still present a threat. It complicates the issue precisely because there is no set criteria for who is at risk.

 Well, maybe you can enlighten me to how frequent the actual threat of abominations are?  I realize there will be superstitions and fears regardless of how often it happens, but the mages and the templars will have a better idea since they actually deal with these threats.  It cant be commonplace, the impossibility of that would boggle my mind because it would be to far fetched if it just happened all the time.  It also seems that a demon cant control a mage unless they agree to it, they can be tricked or tortured into agreeing, but they have to let the demon in. 

At the same time, since I played a mage, the templars are explicit on not letting the mages know that the demon will try to trick them or torture them into agreeing to let it in, that a physical confrontation is useless to the demons goals of possession, they seem to want the mages to figure it out on their own, and are surprised when some fail.  Thats like telling someone to bungee jump without teaching them how to tie the lines or measure the cord, just handing them the equipment and saying figure it out on your own, and by the way, you only have a so much time to figure it out on your own or we are throwing you over the bridge whether or not your ready.

Modifié par Sharn01, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:49 .

[TJPags]

Dhiro wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

But the point of the Chantry being the "neccesary evil" or "lesser evil" with its "police work" blinds the fact that they shape the ideas of the common people and have political influence in the land for its own benefit...

It blinds? I'm full aware that the chantry people can be jerks, that doesn't mean they're all evil. That doesn't mean that priestess or that Reverend Mother can't be people that truly believe in the Maker and truly want to help people.

Sure.  But the way I see it, someone wrote the Chant - or edited it - as well as set up the doctrine of the Chantry.  Those are the ones, in my mind, who are suspect - not the everyday Chanters we see at the Chanters boards or in the chuches, or even the Revered Mother at any given Church.

Remember - one belief of the Chantry is that, when the Chant is spread to the entire world, the Maker will return to us - or look favorably on us again, or something similar.

It's the ones who decide HOW that should be accomplished who are, in my mind, suspect.

Yes, there is a possibility that the ones in the power are more jerks than usual. Also, even if the all-powerful chantry leader one was truly good, they just need a, let's say, really bad apple between their ranks to make things horrible.

Exactly.  A good but weak leader with evil and strong willed underlings can be just as bad.

[Ziggeh]

Morroian wrote...

Like I said above Rivain appears to be even more of a relevant example that the threat is not as great as implied. Tevinter is still a repressive society from the sound of it, but Rivain isn't.

Can't say I've come across the reference before, where does it get mentioned?

[Sharn01]

bsbcaer wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I am getting kind of tired of the overstated dangers of magic.  At some point in Thedas's history the first mages came about, they had no one to teach them and no organization to keep them in check and yet somehow the world didnt end, somehow these mages learned their magic and taught it to new mages.  You cant punish people for what they can possibly do, you have to punish people based on what they actually do. 

Saw your military post before I saw this one, so Im assuming that you're American (if not, Im sorry for the assumption on my end).  Anyways, that is exactly what the American government did in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s.

Just because atrocities where commited in the past does not justify their continuation.

[Dhiro]

I was under the impression that a templar would fight against at least one Abomination in all their life. The ones in the Circle did, at least.

[Maria Caliban]

Ziggeh wrote...

Just how high is that risk? The Tevinter Empire makes me wonder, because placing mages in positions of authority just seems to be asking for demonic shenanigans, and for even the concept of a magocracy to get off the ground they either have a really harsh version of the Harrowing, or the threat is not as prevelant as the Chantry might suggest.

I'd think the Tevinter would be a great example of why mages ruling themselves is a bad idea. Maybe they have a lower rate of abominations than other nations (we have no idea) but there's strong evidence that when they ****-up, they ****-up big time.

Ziggeh wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Like I said above Rivain appears to be even more of a relevant example that the threat is not as great as implied. Tevinter is still a repressive society from the sound of it, but Rivain isn't.

Can't say I've come across the reference before, where does it get mentioned?

In one of the Codexes, Brother Genetivi talks about the Rivani wise women letting spirits into them.

These might be mages (no way to tell) but it's literally one sentence. I'm not sure how we can infer a low risk here.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:49 .

[Drizzt ORierdan]

@Dave,



I forgive you sucking up to the Chantry like a lap puppy only because of your avatar... Is the coolest ever. :-)

[Morroian]

Ziggeh wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Like I said above Rivain appears to be even more of a relevant example that the threat is not as great as implied. Tevinter is still a repressive society from the sound of it, but Rivain isn't.

Can't say I've come across the reference before, where does it get mentioned?

http://dragonage.wik...x_Entry:_Rivain

[Dave of Canada]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

I forgive you sucking up to the Chantry like a lap puppy only because of your avatar... Is the coolest ever. :-)

I'm actually not a fan of the Chantry, don't wish to imagine my argument if I was.

[Dhiro]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

@Dave,

I forgive you sucking up to the Chantry like a lap puppy only because of your avatar... Is the coolest ever. :-)

Such a nice person.

[Ziggeh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd think the Tevinter would be a great example of why mages ruling themselves is a bad idea. Maybe they have a lower rate of abominations than other nations (we have no idea) but there's strong evidence that when they ****-up, they ****-up big time.

Indeed, seems almost inevitable that it'll end badly, but it suprises me that they'd get that far. Think of all the pride that goes into build an empire.

[Risax]

In one of my older threads I talked about Viscount Dumar. And I think he is either a weak ruler that's only there as the Templars puppet, or a ruler that agrees with the way the Templars run things in Kirkwall, giving them the oppurtunity what they want.



If the former of those two is correct, I suspect that Meredith is the true ruling force in Kirkwall.

[Ziggeh]

Morroian wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...x_Entry:_Rivain

Ahhh, right, that's spirits though. Different beasty.