965 réponses à ce sujet

[Fromyou]

People keep it clean

[Moiaussi]

Fromyou wrote...

People keep it clean

This is talking dirty to you?

[PARAGON87]

TIM, as all major tyrants did, does not truly believe he is evil. He has his own reasons and finds all of them justified for the good of humanity.

As the cliche goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Modifié par PARAGON87, 19 janvier 2011 - 01:45 .

[Fromyou]

Moiaussi wrote...

Fromyou wrote...

People keep it clean

This is talking dirty to you?

it was really a bumb in disguise

[Moiaussi]

Fromyou wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Fromyou wrote...

People keep it clean

This is talking dirty to you?

it was really a bumb in disguise

TIM isn't evil, just a deranged space hobo? 

[masseffectexpert94]

the illusive man has a hard time trying to do things the "good" way because of cerbarus's shady history but he is a neutral man trying to do a good thing the evil way

[Jean de Valette]

masseffectexpert94 wrote...

the illusive man has a hard time trying to do things the "good" way because of cerbarus's shady history but he is a neutral man trying to do a good thing the evil way

Which is why he's one of the best Bio characters they've come up with, ever.

If TIM was truely evil he would have pressed the current crewman of the Normandy into slavery, and not given a damn about payment or their families. However you learn that TIM rewards people he wats generously, and looks out for their loved ones.

Of course, TIM lies and uses you and others. But the Alliance people do that to. And Shepard's no stranger to lying either. My Paragon Shep lied his *** off during the whole Tali loyalty mission (and it was considered Paragon).

In the end TIM uses you for his own means but is fairly honest about it (eventually). And unlike the Alliance he does care about the Collectors targeting humans in the outer systems. And about the Reapers. Which may have been a deux ex mechanica on Bio's part, because even Alliance people wouldn't be so stupid as not believing the Reaper threat.

[jeweledleah]

I'm not sure he's evil per se. but he's definitely power hungry, sociopathic, ruthless, impulsive (for all his stratagems) individual who not only thinks that the end justifies the means, he doesn't even try to look for alternative solutions. in other words, he's a human version of Saren.

[sirandar]

He seems to value his power above all else ..... If he were to come out on top I think he would set up a regime that would resemble evil quite closely

[Terraneaux]

He's evil, but it's not because of his methods. It's that he's willing to sacrifice the efficiency of the operation to feed his own ego - things like not telling Shep about the ambush on the Collector Ship. He's a mad dog, really. He can be useful, but make no mistake he's going to turn on everyone eventually. And he'd rather see the galaxy burn then him not control it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Terraneaux wrote...

He's evil, but it's not because of his methods. It's that he's willing to sacrifice the efficiency of the operation to feed his own ego - things like not telling Shep about the ambush on the Collector Ship. He's a mad dog, really. He can be useful, but make no mistake he's going to turn on everyone eventually. And he'd rather see the galaxy burn then him not control it.

The in-game position of that is the exact opposite: not-telling Shepard was a point of the larger concerns to be considered, not personal satisfaction. The concept does have historical precedence, and can't simply be rejected out of hand.


The only point in-universe we have of TIM putting personal ego before objectivity is in Retribution, in getting revenge after Grayson (and thus triggering Grayson's dead-man trap which led to Anderson's actions which were necessary for Reaper-Grayson to get out). Had it been any hobo or somewhat, it would have likely never gotten out of hand.

Otherwise? 

[thegreateski]

Evil? No. But he's no saint either.

[Dean_the_Young]

'And he'd be the first to admit to that.'

[Moiaussi]

Jean de Valette wrote...


If TIM was truely evil he would have pressed the current crewman of the Normandy into slavery, and not given a damn about payment or their families. However you learn that TIM rewards people he wats generously, and looks out for their loved ones.
.

One of the greatest falacies about evil is that it is done for the sake of evil, or that evil people by some sort of definition are incapable of doing anything good or having any redeeming qualities.

Why press anyone into slavery when you can get them to work for you for free out of patriotism or in the name of a cause? When did any discussion of salaries or compensation for Shepard or any of the crew happen?

There is also a fine line between 'cared for' and 'hostages,' especially in an agency that is not averse to political assassinations.

[lovgreno]

Terraneaux wrote...

He's evil, but it's not because of his methods. It's that he's willing to sacrifice the efficiency of the operation to feed his own ego - things like not telling Shep about the ambush on the Collector Ship. He's a mad dog, really. He can be useful, but make no mistake he's going to turn on everyone eventually. And he'd rather see the galaxy burn then him not control it.

I think it would be wrong to assume that hunger for personal power and shortsighted stupidity is what drives TIMmy. I suspect he is even ready to sacrifice himself, his pride and Cerberus if it was necesary. To me he is a very smart man (smarter than most, including Shepard) but blinded by his idealism and isolation. So he is not evil but rather someone who could have been a hero but turned into a tragic figure instead.

No one is all good or evil in the ME story and I got the feeling the writers wanted to make this especialy true for TIMmy.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The in-game position of that is the exact opposite: not-telling Shepard was a point of the larger concerns to be considered, not personal satisfaction. The concept does have historical precedence, and can't simply be rejected out of hand.

1) He also dismisses all Cerberus' questionable operations as 'rogue' (Miranda discusses them as having been the work of 'other branches' of Cerberus).

2) The 'need to know' thing is occasionally a valid excuse, but it only is valid to the extent that Shepard was incompentent enough not to assume a possible trap in the first place. Even if there were no actual collectors on board, he is flying a ship with an AI and knows Reapers are sentient ships. Why wouldn't he be cautious anyway? The only logical reason I can think of for not telling Shepard is to forstall the 'lets just shoot it down' arguement, which actually would have kept the region safe at least until the Collectors could build or acquire another ship.

Or he might have been worried about Shepard not being willing to carry out the mission at all (in which case TIM needs a much better dossier on Shepard, or at least on ME players )

The only point in-universe we have of TIM putting personal ego before objectivity is in Retribution, in getting revenge after Grayson (and thus triggering Grayson's dead-man trap which led to Anderson's actions which were necessary for Reaper-Grayson to get out). Had it been any hobo or somewhat, it would have likely never gotten out of hand.

Otherwise? 

Well that and setting himself up as a shadow dictator to the Alliance. Not setting up a committee, or a better political system, or anything other than a dictatorship with him in charge. Shepard was appointed as savior by a prothean beacon explosion and thus having the core knowledge needed for this specific crisis. What's TIM's validation?

[Fromyou]

Account hacked by his friend: I say he is evil cause I get renagade points for agreeing with him

[The Unfallen]

lovgreno wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

He's evil, but it's not because of his methods. It's that he's willing to sacrifice the efficiency of the operation to feed his own ego - things like not telling Shep about the ambush on the Collector Ship. He's a mad dog, really. He can be useful, but make no mistake he's going to turn on everyone eventually. And he'd rather see the galaxy burn then him not control it.

I think it would be wrong to assume that hunger for personal power and shortsighted stupidity is what drives TIMmy. I suspect he is even ready to sacrifice himself, his pride and Cerberus if it was necesary. To me he is a very smart man (smarter than most, including Shepard) but blinded by his idealism and isolation. So he is not evil but rather someone who could have been a hero but turned into a tragic figure instead.

No one is all good or evil in the ME story and I got the feeling the writers wanted to make this especialy true for TIMmy.

No one is all good or evil? What about the Reapers? They seemed pretty intent on wiping out all life in the Galaxy to me.

[thegreateski]

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

He's evil, but it's not because of his methods. It's that he's willing to sacrifice the efficiency of the operation to feed his own ego - things like not telling Shep about the ambush on the Collector Ship. He's a mad dog, really. He can be useful, but make no mistake he's going to turn on everyone eventually. And he'd rather see the galaxy burn then him not control it.

I think it would be wrong to assume that hunger for personal power and shortsighted stupidity is what drives TIMmy. I suspect he is even ready to sacrifice himself, his pride and Cerberus if it was necesary. To me he is a very smart man (smarter than most, including Shepard) but blinded by his idealism and isolation. So he is not evil but rather someone who could have been a hero but turned into a tragic figure instead.

No one is all good or evil in the ME story and I got the feeling the writers wanted to make this especialy true for TIMmy.

No one is all good or evil? What about the Reapers? They seemed pretty intent on wiping out all life in the Galaxy to me.

Just the space fareing races and they "ascend" races that they feel are worthy to Reaperdom

Of course the case could also be made that the Reapers are completely insane and that no morality can be applied to them.

[33percent]

Who ever thinks he is "evil" is just living a life being a straight up puss, if that hurts you're feelings cry me a river. He operates a business like blackwater,and get real this guy is a ultimate bad****. When I played ME2, thought of him more of a Godfather. I couldn't agree more with his way of doing business "if the ends justify the means" so be it. I'll do the same, who gives a damn; the universe out there is like the wild west.



Plus he brought me back from the dead, so who ever is "b!tching" that he is evil you owe him a debt regardless. Most of you are probably dead beats anyways, but I got him the collector ship so that was my deed of paying off my debt to him. Plus costed him 4 billion(credits), damn didn't know I was such a worthy investment.



Some of you call him "ambitiously stupid", HA I'm sure you never done anything ambitious in you're lives. Personally you are the ones who are grunts of society, always wonder why you are on the lower food chain. Never getting anywhere in you're lives.



This guy has balls, and does not give a damn who he pisses off. It's one way to get business done, no politics involved. Pure streamline straight to business. Hopefully in ME3 I can take his place, when the moment is right. I'll send my regards...

[Moiaussi]

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

No one is all good or evil? What about the Reapers? They seemed pretty intent on wiping out all life in the Galaxy to me.

It is a moral position of convenience many seem to take so they don't have to worry about their own morality.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The in-game position of that is the exact opposite: not-telling Shepard was a point of the larger concerns to be considered, not personal satisfaction. The concept does have historical precedence, and can't simply be rejected out of hand.

1) He also dismisses all Cerberus' questionable operations as 'rogue'

No he doesn't.

There are two Cerberus operations ever identified as going beyond their bounds and without his knowledge: in both cases, the position and evidence for this doesn't come from the Illusive Man, but from within the projects themselves. Teltin, which in their own logs admitted to hiding and altering their true logs, and Overlord, in which Archer refers to holding back a report until a demonstration is available.

(Miranda discusses them as having been the work of 'other branches' of Cerberus).

And this is completely accurate with no reason to dispute: Lazarus Cell is part of the Science arm, while the ME1 cells encountered were more often the military arm. Miranda never denies that these are also Cerberus, but merely distinguishes that they are not all of Cerberus nor does all Cerberus act like them.

2) The 'need to know' thing is occasionally a valid excuse, but it only is valid to the extent that Shepard was incompentent enough not to assume a possible trap in the first place. Even if there were no actual collectors on board, he is flying a ship with an AI and knows Reapers are sentient ships. Why wouldn't he be cautious anyway? The only logical reason I can think of for not telling Shepard is to forstall the 'lets just shoot it down' arguement, which actually would have kept the region safe at least until the Collectors could build or acquire another ship.

Congratulations, then. You've partially answered your own question. There are other reasons as well: the validity has nothing to do with assuming Shepard is incompetent.

Well that and setting himself up as a shadow dictator to the Alliance. Not setting up a committee, or a better political system, or anything other than a dictatorship with him in charge. Shepard was appointed as savior by a prothean beacon explosion and thus having the core knowledge needed for this specific crisis. What's TIM's validation?

He isn't a shadow dictator to the Alliance, nor has anything to date ever suggested his stated ambitions for the greater whole of Humanity aren't entirely sincere.

While Cerberus has influence within the Alliance, nothing has ever suggested it has outright control, with a number of events (including ME2 and Retribution) assert that the main body of the Alliance is against Cerberus. TIM is only influential when no one else knows, and when the Alliance knows it routinely crushes all of Cerberus it can find. Cerberus has always been set up as something opposed by the Alliance even as it infiltrates and influences, but never in outright control.

Moreover, Cerberus has never implemented the scope and scale of acts to be found in a dictatorship. Political assassinations are circumstantial, not a matter of course, and murders are not routinely done on a basis of political disagreement. Cerberus does not control or curtail at will the news, the votes, the police, the politics, the policies, or any of the traditional power structures of a government.

TIM's validation is that he's the one who's organized, built, maintained, and directed Cerberus, and well enough over the years that other people believe him capable, whether they fear/hate his organization (the Council) or support it (his backers). TIM's validation is the oldest: he gets results that enable him to continue acting.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No he doesn't.

There are two Cerberus operations ever identified as going beyond their bounds and without his knowledge: in both cases, the position and evidence for this doesn't come from the Illusive Man, but from within the projects themselves. Teltin, which in their own logs admitted to hiding and altering their true logs, and Overlord, in which Archer refers to holding back a report until a demonstration is available.

When you ask him about Cerberus at the start of ME2, I am pretty sure it was him that dismissed what Shep saw in ME1 as rogue operations.

Teltin did actually go rogue and he did clean it up when he realized, but he should have had more snap inspections and the like.

And this is completely accurate with no reason to dispute: Lazarus Cell is part of the Science arm, while the ME1 cells encountered were more often the military arm. Miranda never denies that these are also Cerberus, but merely distinguishes that they are not all of Cerberus nor does all Cerberus act like them.

But either all arms answer to TIM or TIM isn't the actual head of Cerberus.

2) Congratulations, then. You've partially answered your own question. There are other reasons as well: the validity has nothing to do with assuming Shepard is incompetent.

So you are saying that TIM didn't tell Shepard because he wanted more human colonies to be eliminated? If so, doesn't that count as sponsoring terrorism, even if not a direct terrorist attack?

He isn't a shadow dictator to the Alliance, nor has anything to date ever suggested his stated ambitions for the greater whole of Humanity aren't entirely sincere.

While Cerberus has influence within the Alliance, nothing has ever suggested it has outright control, with a number of events (including ME2 and Retribution) assert that the main body of the Alliance is against Cerberus. TIM is only influential when no one else knows, and when the Alliance knows it routinely crushes all of Cerberus it can find. Cerberus has always been set up as something opposed by the Alliance even as it infiltrates and influences, but never in outright control.

Moreover, Cerberus has never implemented the scope and scale of acts to be found in a dictatorship. Political assassinations are circumstantial, not a matter of course, and murders are not routinely done on a basis of political disagreement. Cerberus does not control or curtail at will the news, the votes, the police, the politics, the policies, or any of the traditional power structures of a government.

TIM's validation is that he's the one who's organized, built, maintained, and directed Cerberus, and well enough over the years that other people believe him capable, whether they fear/hate his organization (the Council) or support it (his backers). TIM's validation is the oldest: he gets results that enable him to continue acting.

That is nothing but spin on your part. Not shooting more people than you need to does not equate to not working to take control. In one of the situations their assassination didn't get the person they wanted into power, but they discovered they could bribe the person who did make it in to achieve the same end.

Politicians lose in free elections all the time without any permanent loss of the ability to act, and please tell me that you don't believe that simply forming an organization with you at the head validates your being at the head of everyone else. On that basis, as a self employed individual, I should be god emperor of earth. Everyone in my organization believes in me too. Sure my organization consists just of me, but according to EDI, Cerberus consists of only about 150 people. Even if that was 150,000 people it would not be enough to justify TIM as Alliance dictator.

Even if that was 150 million people, it wouldn't be enough to win a free election on Earth let alone the entire Alliance.

Near as I can tell, to you 'right to rule' is validated by  'breathing.'

Modifié par Moiaussi, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:44 .

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

No more evil than Mengela, as anyone who read Retribution would know.





So yeah he's evil, heres to Gillian pulverizing him in ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

When you ask him about Cerberus at the start of ME2, I am pretty sure it was him that dismissed what Shep saw in ME1 as rogue operations.

He doesn't.

But either all arms answer to TIM or TIM isn't the actual head of Cerberus.

What arm has allegedly been declared rogue?

The point isn't that another arm was 'rogue', Miranda's point was that Cerberus doesn't enforce a single way of acting across all cells.

So you are saying that TIM didn't tell Shepard because he wanted more human colonies to be eliminated?

No.

If so, doesn't that count as sponsoring terrorism, even if not a direct terrorist attack?

No.

That is nothing but spin on your part. Not shooting more people than you need to does not equate to not working to take control. In one of the situations their assassination didn't get the person they wanted into power, but they discovered they could bribe the person who did make it in to achieve the same end.

Compared to actual dictatorships and the elimination of political rivals, scale does matter. The scale of political assassinations and interference does not reach such levels. Cerb

Near as I can tell, to you 'right to rule' is validated by  'breathing.'

To an extent, breathing is a requisite to being able to act. So is a willingness to act. Someone who neither exists nor is willing to act has less right to rule than those with such qualifications. Cerberus acts, but does not control.

There is no absolute source or legitimacy. Even organizations such as, say, the United States, which posit that the consent of the governned is the source of legitimacy, face their own contradictions and challenges: of the people who did not vote for the winning candidate. For those affected but not part of the electorate.

Legitimacy springs from a lot of fountains: consent, delegation, the aborgation or responsibility of authority, and so on. 'Effectiveness' is another one.

There are a lot of aspects TIM could appeal to. It's actually one of the morally gray aspects of Cerberus.