965 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

Hard to tell as he isn't a nice guy for sure. Some of his goals behind the scenes might well condemn him as such. However, his actions in ME2 show him to be calculating and rithless, but believing that is what is required to save humanity from the reaper threat. Definitely a renegade but I'll hold off on the diabolical evil mastermind for now.

[lovgreno]

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

He's evil, but it's not because of his methods. It's that he's willing to sacrifice the efficiency of the operation to feed his own ego - things like not telling Shep about the ambush on the Collector Ship. He's a mad dog, really. He can be useful, but make no mistake he's going to turn on everyone eventually. And he'd rather see the galaxy burn then him not control it.

I think it would be wrong to assume that hunger for personal power and shortsighted stupidity is what drives TIMmy. I suspect he is even ready to sacrifice himself, his pride and Cerberus if it was necesary. To me he is a very smart man (smarter than most, including Shepard) but blinded by his idealism and isolation. So he is not evil but rather someone who could have been a hero but turned into a tragic figure instead.

No one is all good or evil in the ME story and I got the feeling the writers wanted to make this especialy true for TIMmy.

No one is all good or evil? What about the Reapers? They seemed pretty intent on wiping out all life in the Galaxy to me.

That depends on your perspective. Those about to be reaped have good reasons to think of them as evil. To the reapers themselves it's just farming to put food on your table.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So you are saying that TIM didn't tell Shepard because he wanted more human colonies to be eliminated?

No.

If you are going to tell me I answered my own question, and I try to confirm what you mean, don't just say 'no' unless you don't actually have any point to make.

To an extent, breathing is a requisite to being able to act. So is a willingness to act. Someone who neither exists nor is willing to act has less right to rule than those with such qualifications. Cerberus acts, but does not control.

There is no absolute source or legitimacy. Even organizations such as, say, the United States, which posit that the consent of the governned is the source of legitimacy, face their own contradictions and challenges: of the people who did not vote for the winning candidate. For those affected but not part of the electorate.

Legitimacy springs from a lot of fountains: consent, delegation, the aborgation or responsibility of authority, and so on. 'Effectiveness' is another one. There are a lot of aspects TIM could appeal to. It's actually one of the morally gray aspects of Cerberus.

So you are falling back on the old 'it wasn't a crime because I didn't get caught' defence? You realize that is a meaningless defence. As long as you don't get caught you don't need to defend yourself either.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:04 .

[Fromyou]

lovgreno wrote...

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

He's evil, but it's not because of his methods. It's that he's willing to sacrifice the efficiency of the operation to feed his own ego - things like not telling Shep about the ambush on the Collector Ship. He's a mad dog, really. He can be useful, but make no mistake he's going to turn on everyone eventually. And he'd rather see the galaxy burn then him not control it.

I think it would be wrong to assume that hunger for personal power and shortsighted stupidity is what drives TIMmy. I suspect he is even ready to sacrifice himself, his pride and Cerberus if it was necesary. To me he is a very smart man (smarter than most, including Shepard) but blinded by his idealism and isolation. So he is not evil but rather someone who could have been a hero but turned into a tragic figure instead.

No one is all good or evil in the ME story and I got the feeling the writers wanted to make this especialy true for TIMmy.

No one is all good or evil? What about the Reapers? They seemed pretty intent on wiping out all life in the Galaxy to me.

That depends on your perspective. Those about to be reaped have good reasons to think of them as evil. To the reapers themselves it's just farming to put food on your table.

Just think of the little Reaper babies waiting for their fathers to be done haversting. But Ceberus is really cares about their workers if you listein to those 2 crew members on your ship and the illusive man apperently gives nice benifits

[xedgorex]

The over use of the "If so and so had failed so and so would suck" is a pretty heavy use of False Logic and it is not an accurate point to argue on.

[MajesticJazz]

Hitler is Evil



Illusive Man isn't

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So you are saying that TIM didn't tell Shepard because he wanted more human colonies to be eliminated?

No.

If you are going to tell me I answered my own question, and I try to confirm what you mean, don't just say 'no' unless you don't actually have any point to make.

You did partially answer your own question, but what you then wrote afterwords had nothing to do with it.

The point. Spelled out. Since you missed it.

So you are falling back on the old 'it wasn't a crime because I didn't get caught' defence?

[The Point]No.[/The Point]

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The point. Spelled out. Since you missed it.

All. You. Have. Spelled out. Is that. You. Can type. Like Shatner talks.

Care to try again?

[PauseforEffect]

The Illusive Man evil?

Yes.

Because he would willingly, willfully cause harm to people as a means to an end.

Buut since people are going to assault my kind of opinion as a foolish ideal, saying that life doesn't work like sunshine & daises and that the Illusive Man is a necessary fact of life like PMS, taxes & contraceptives, judge and move on.

I still call bull on HIS ideals and paste the "evil" label on his forehead.

After all, if the $1500 suit fits, wear it.

[Konfined]

Evil? No. Morally repugnant? Very much so.

Modifié par Konfined, 22 janvier 2011 - 05:28 .

[gloops]

Because he would willingly, willfully cause harm to people as a means to an end.

Welcome to the real world.

I still call bull on HIS ideals and paste the "evil" label on his forehead.

Unlike the Alliance, TIM actually wants what's best for humanity. That behavior warrants the hero label, not evil.

Modifié par gloops, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:44 .

[Arijharn]

gloops wrote...
Unlike the Alliance, TIM actually wants what's best for humanity. That behavior warrants the hero label, not evil.

True with a caveat though; he obviously wants something for himself out of it. However, that makes him more real to me rather than any villian.

[gloops]

double post

Modifié par gloops, 22 janvier 2011 - 07:24 .

[gloops]

True with a caveat though; he obviously wants something for himself out of it. However, that makes him more real to me rather than any villian.

I think it's important to take both TIM's good and bad attributes into consideration. Those who label him evil fail to do this, instead choosing to partake in maddeningly simplistic analysis.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

gloops wrote...
Unlike the Alliance, TIM actually wants what's best for humanity. That behavior warrants the hero label, not evil.

True with a caveat though; he obviously wants something for himself out of it. However, that makes him more real to me rather than any villian.

I can't really see anything he can want out of it for himself except the joy of "O, I'm so f***ing good at puppet-mastering the Galaxy!" Which he gets either way, good or evil. That said, being evil in this case is stupid as it may negatively affect the efficiency and therefore diminish the joy.

But this kind of selfishness (although it's what may be seen as evil by some) is also what should prevent him from falling like Saren for the Reaper's "submission preferable to extinction" and "salvation through destruction" crap.

[PauseforEffect]

gloops wrote...

True with a caveat though; he obviously wants something for himself out of it. However, that makes him more real to me rather than any villian.

I think it's important to take both TIM's good and bad attributes into consideration. Those who label him evil fail to do this, instead choosing to partake in maddeningly simplistic analysis.

Simplistic analysis for a simplistic egomaniac.
Try not to make assumptions on my behalf. At least I never went and labeled you a Cerberus lapdog for disagreeing. Ask for more detailed reasons if this is not enough.

[PauseforEffect]

Double post

Modifié par PrimalEden, 22 janvier 2011 - 07:57 .

[gloops]

Ask for more detailed reasons if this is not enough.

Your analysis is maddeningly simplistic because it fails to take into account the political realities of the galaxy. The fact is TIM and Cerberus are required if you're interested in the betterment of humanity. No amount of foolish idealism will change that.



But I guess you're happy being a lapdog for the turians.

[PauseforEffect]

Again gloops, try not to make assumptions of what my reasons are on my behalf.

The "political realities" is that Cerberus and the Illusive Man are seen as traitors to humanity. Don't preach to me about seeing both sides when you're quick to call me a lapdog of Turians when I made no such claim nor gave any such hint.

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

gloops wrote...
Unlike the Alliance, TIM actually wants what's best for humanity. That behavior warrants the hero label, not evil.

True with a caveat though; he obviously wants something for himself out of it. However, that makes him more real to me rather than any villian.

I can't really see anything he can want out of it for himself except the joy of "O, I'm so f***ing good at puppet-mastering the Galaxy!" Which he gets either way, good or evil. That said, being evil in this case is stupid as it may negatively affect the efficiency and therefore diminish the joy.

But this kind of selfishness (although it's what may be seen as evil by some) is also what should prevent him from falling like Saren for the Reaper's "submission preferable to extinction" and "salvation through destruction" crap.

I agree, but lemme try and give an example of what I mean.

The Lazarus Project - huge deal really. Successful resurrection of some one who was dead, very complex very much a brilliant undertaking. As much of an impossible mission as stopping the Collector's in and of itself, just without the 'suicide mission' attached. Sure, TIM wanted Shephard back 'just as he was' but anyone who thinks that TIM/Cerberus wouldn't seek to benefit from the medical and scientific advancements gained from this is quite simply a very stupid person imo.

The thing is, I don't think there is anything wrong for Cerberus or TIM to seek to gain from this, I mean, the society is pretty capitalistic apparently within the realms of the mass effect universe (with the exception of if you're a law abiding batarian though).

Hopefully no one is going to try and somehow equate capitalism with evil though, because if that's the case, just make a note of it and I'll be sure to headbang my desk.

[Zulu_DFA]

PrimalEden wrote...


The "political realities" is that Cerberus and the Illusive Man are seen as traitors to humanity.

By who?

[PauseforEffect]

Seriously Zulu? You want me to answer that when it's clear you would never accept the answer?

gloops and you are welcome to your opinions, I have no real issue with that. But I won't stand for being bullied and condemned for mine.

[Zulu_DFA]

PrimalEden wrote...

Seriously Zulu? You want me to answer that when it's clear you would never accept the answer?

Yes, I want you to answer this quesion . And don't make assumptions.

PrimalEden wrote...

gloops and you are welcome to your opinions, I have no real issue with that. But I won't stand for being bullied and condemned for mine.

You are welcome to your wrong opinion. Nobody means to bully and condemn you for it.

[PauseforEffect]

Insisting upon calling an opposing opinion as wrong when plenty of reasons have been given already is bullying.

I know you've given a lengthy explanation how Cerberus is still part of the Alliance and gloops is going to still call Anderson a traitor for trying to take down an organization that experimented on the very species they say they're protecting.

No amount of harrassing and insults are going to convince the rest of the posters on this forum who hate Cerberus that Cerberus is working for the betterment of humanity.

[Moiaussi]

Welcome to the real world.

Yes, there have been various people throughout history who have taken similar approaches. History doesn't tend to look favourably on them, and often questions the neccessity of their actions. Often that questioning occurs by force.

Unlike the Alliance, TIM actually wants what's best for humanity. That behavior warrants the hero label, not evil.

For that statement to be meaningful, you have to present evidence showing that the Alliance is particularly bad for humanity. Is there such evidence in the books? I don't know of any. There certainly isn't in the games.

Present your case rather than simply stating it as if it is a fact.