965 réponses à ce sujet

[gloops]

For that statement to be meaningful, you have to present evidence showing that the Alliance is particularly bad for humanity. Is there such evidence in the books? I don't know of any. There certainly isn't in the games.

What did the Alliance do when human colonies were being abducted? What has the Alliance done in the face of the Reaper threat?



Those are just two examples.

[Katamariguy]

TIM claims that his actions are "harsh, but necessary." Seriously?



Harsh? Obviously. Necessary? YOu've got to be joking.

[Moiaussi]

What did the Alliance do when human colonies were being abducted? What has the Alliance done in the face of the Reaper threat?

Those are just two examples.

Regarding example 1:

They moved to give foreign human colonies big guns, completely at Alliance expense and despite those colonies were not part of the Alliance and thus not contributing anything to the Alliance.

Anderson was withholding information from Shepard as to Ashley's deployment, so it is possible that they are doing more in the region than they are letting Shepard (and thus, us as readers/players) know.

Note that TIM had intel regarding such abductions as well, and near as we can tell, superior intel, yet withheld it from the Alliance, begging the question whether he is really protecting humanity or just power hungry.

Regarding example 2:

Other than Udina, the Alliance stood by Shepard all through ME1. In ME2, the calls for Shepard's head are related to his association with Cerberus rather than his concerns regarding Reapers.

The support for Shepard and against the Reapers was clear at the battle of the Citadel. The Alliance fleet was not actually asked to join as they were deemed unneccessary by the Council. Nevertheless, acting solely on Shepard's word as relayed by Joker, the fleet was fully mobilized and unlike the Council fleet, were not caught off guard. They were ready to come through the momment the relays were reactivated, and deferred to Shepard's judgement as to best course of action.

In ME2, it is true that they broke up the crew, but other than the VS, and the general staff, they weren't alliance personel. Keep in mind that TIM recruited only the human crew, and did his best to discourage Shepard from reconnecting with any of the others, so TIM did exactly the same thing in that regard.

As for hunting Geth, Shep was still a Spectre and thus under Council command. At the time the Normandy went down though, it was assigned to investigate ship disappearances in that region, which did turn out to be reaper related (via the collectors).

And again, all through ME2, TIM refuses to let Shepard pass any intel on to the Council OR the Alliance, thus withholding all evidence of the Reapers and valuable intel. If Shepard had failed, even though the Alliance easily has both the fleet strength and trained personel neccessary to have succeeded in a followup, they wouldn't have had the intel because TIM was actively conceiling it from them. That also undermined Shepard, btw.

So please, again, precisely how is Cerberus acting on behalf of humanity or the galaxy rather than TIM's greed for collector tech?  

[Arijharn]

Katamariguy wrote...

TIM claims that his actions are "harsh, but necessary." Seriously?

Harsh? Obviously. Necessary? YOu've got to be joking.

Try and think of it like what I imagine he does.

He see's himself as a character who will protect Humanity from everything, including (and maybe even especially) cultural erosion (think of American culture and how it has seemingly invaded everything, also recall France's reaction in particular against this).

If he lets Humanity to be extinguished for any reason, then he becomes if possible even more reviled than he is already. If possible, cultural erosion is more insidious than anything a military occupation would mean.

As for military, think of it this way. He isn't in PR or marketing, his job isn't to 'look good', it is to 'win.' Let generations down the line weigh the pros and cons of his actions to see if they somehow quantifiable. As to what makes him qualified to make those judgements? He does. He has the resources, the capital and most importantly the motivation to make those judgements.

He treats any (potential) aggression from other species as somewhat of an existential threat for Humanity (at least, that's how I think he see's it) which is why he uses resources (and people) in the way he does. There are no prizes for second place, and history is not written by the losers.

[Zulu_DFA]

PrimalEden wrote...

Insisting upon calling an opposing opinion as wrong when plenty of reasons have been given already is bullying.

If you've taken deep into your head that you are being bullied, it's your problem, not mine. However, the argument "TIM sucks, because you're bullying me" is invalid, because even if I or anyone else were indeed bullying you, it wouldn't change the facts about TIM.

PrimalEden wrote...

I know you've given a lengthy explanation how Cerberus is still part of the Alliance and gloops is going to still call Anderson a traitor for trying to take down an organization that experimented on the very species they say they're protecting.

The experiments were carried out on a few individuals. On remote locations. Away from the newsmen to not upset the frail collective mind of general public.

By contrast, the Council made an entire race of billions of individuals unhappy, saying it's for that race's betterment too, and is still quite proud about it. And is drawing far less ire than Cerberus of this forum, because they are "cool aliens".

PrimalEden wrote...

No amount of harrassing and insults are going to convince the rest of the posters on this forum who hate Cerberus that Cerberus is working for the betterment of humanity.

Again, if you want to discuss Cerberus, discuss it. If you want to discuss the posters' harassment of other posters, PM a moderator.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 janvier 2011 - 10:24 .

[Da_Lion_Man]

What's all this talk about bullying?

[gloops]

They moved to give foreign human colonies big guns, completely at Alliance expense and despite those colonies were not part of the Alliance and thus not contributing anything to the Alliance.

Too bad it's manifest that the big guns will be ineffective against the Collectors. The only reason the guns had any effect on Horizon was because of Cerberus.

Anderson was withholding information from Shepard as to Ashley's deployment, so it is possible that they are doing more in the region than they are letting Shepard (and thus, us as readers/players) know.

Human colonies were being abducted for a while. Cerberus comes along with Shepard and co. and, suddenly, the abductions stop. That tells me that the Alliance is incredibly inept or doesn't care about helping the colonists. Neither are admirable traits.

Note that TIM had intel regarding such abductions as well, and near as we can tell, superior intel, yet withheld it from the Alliance, begging the question whether he is really protecting humanity or just power hungry.

Didn't he just withhold the information in regards to Horizon? Also, withholding the information regarding Horizon was necessary. If he shares the information the Alliance potentially gets in the way and muddies up Shepard's operation.

Keep in mind that TIM recruited only the human crew, and did his best to discourage Shepard from reconnecting with any of the others, so TIM did exactly the same thing in that regard.

I don't understand what you're arguing here.

So please, again, precisely how is Cerberus acting on behalf of humanity or the galaxy rather than TIM's greed for collector tech?

Whoa, where does the greed for Collector tech come from? Based on information the game and the novels provide, it's obvious that TIM wants to help humanity.

What's all this talk about bullying?

Apparently disagreeing with someone is an indication of bullying.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The point. Spelled out. Since you missed it.

All. You. Have. Spelled out. Is that. You. Can type. Like Shatner talks.

Care to try again?

Not particularly. You have a most remarkable ability to read words and then interpret them in wildly fanciful directions they were never indicating or supporting.

[Asheer_Khan]

gloops wrote...

Didn't he just withhold the information in regards to Horizon? Also, withholding the information regarding Horizon was necessary. If he shares the information the Alliance potentially gets in the way and muddies up Shepard's operation.

First you smear Alliance for not helping abducted colonies but when chance to made coordinated with them attack on Collectors (and very possibly save ALL colonists there) you say it was necessary to keep them in dark... typical for cerberus loyalties double standards i see here...<_<

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 22 janvier 2011 - 01:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Never mind.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 janvier 2011 - 01:12 .

[gloops]

First you smear Alliance for not helping abducted colonies but when chance to made coordinated with them attack on Collectors (and very possibly save ALL colonists there) you say it was necessary to keep them in dark... typical for cerberus loyalties double standards i see here...

There's no double standard at all. By the time the events on Horizon begin to take place I don't trust the Alliance to do what is necessary. After all, their response to the Collector problem was to install some cannons. Shepard's operation is better off without their interference.

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

gloops wrote...

Didn't he just withhold the information in regards to Horizon? Also, withholding the information regarding Horizon was necessary. If he shares the information the Alliance potentially gets in the way and muddies up Shepard's operation.

First you smear Alliance for not helping abducted colonies but when chance to made coordinated with them attack on Collectors (and very possibly save ALL colonists there) you say it was necessary to keep them in dark... typical for cerberus loyalties double standards i see here...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

There was also a chance that a "coordinated attack" may end in disaster. Until Horizon there was no indication that it's just one ship, big but vulnerable. TIM was gathering intelligence on the Collectors. Which is the real explanation for everything that happens in ME2, including the "suicide mission": go take a look what's beyond the O-4 relay.

[PauseforEffect]

To answer your question Zulu, Alliance.

That a high ranking officer like Anderson is actively working against Cerberus is one of several other instances of what humans think about the organization that's about humanity

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a person's opinion, but insulting them is another thing.

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Insisting upon calling an opposing opinion as wrong when plenty of reasons have been given already is bullying.

If you've taken deep into your head that you are being bullied, it's your problem, not mine. However, the argument "TIM sucks, because you're bullying me" is invalid, because even if I or anyone else were indeed bullying you, it wouldn't change the facts about TIM.

PrimalEden wrote...

I know you've given a lengthy explanation how Cerberus is still part of the Alliance and gloops is going to still call Anderson a traitor for trying to take down an organization that experimented on the very species they say they're protecting.

The experiments were carried out on a few individuals. On remote locations. Away from the newsmen to not upset the frail collective mind of general public.

By contrast, the Council made an entire race of billions of individuals unhappy, saying it's for that race's betterment too, and is still quite proud about it. And is drawing far less ire than Cerberus of this forum, because they are "cool aliens".

PrimalEden wrote...

No amount of harrassing and insults are going to convince the rest of the posters on this forum who hate Cerberus that Cerberus is working for the betterment of humanity.

Again, if you want to discuss Cerberus, discuss it. If you want to discuss the posters' harassment of other posters, PM a moderator.

Okay, dude, not to be a dick, but I barely ever come to these forums and even I recognize your SN, because you actually are quite a dick to people all the time in these dumb arguments about an imaginary universe... 

[Moiaussi]

Too bad it's manifest that the big guns will be ineffective against the Collectors. The only reason the guns had any effect on Horizon was because of Cerberus.

Really? So the fact that TIM withheld intel regarding his reasons for expecting Horizon specificly to be attacked didn't affect the timing of bringing the gun online at all? Ashley was not working on the gun when the attack happened.

You also conveniently ignore the fact that it was the gun that drove the Collectors off. The Normandy didn't fire a shot.

Human colonies were being abducted for a while. Cerberus comes along with Shepard and co. and, suddenly, the abductions stop. That tells me that the Alliance is incredibly inept or doesn't care about helping the colonists. Neither are admirable traits.

TIM told Shepard to go specificly to Horizon for evidence, before Horizon came under attack. Either TIM had superior intel from somewhere as to where the Collectors would strike next or he was taking another insane gamble with his having brought back Shepard.

Again, if the gun was online in time, the collector vessel would have been driven off. If the Alliance fleet had been present, the Collector vessel could have been one-shotted and out of the picture. Both those options were jeopardized by withholding intel.

Didn't he just withhold the information in regards to Horizon? Also, withholding the information regarding Horizon was necessary. If he shares the information the Alliance potentially gets in the way and muddies up Shepard's operation.

Regarding Horizon (see comments above regarding that), regarding the Reaper hull, which appearantly he had been attempting to study for a while, regarding the Collector vessel's false distress signal....

And, of course there is the matter of undermining Shepard in the first place by leaking false information that Shepard was working with Cerberus while Shep was still unconcious on a Lazarus work table.

Oh, and the second Prothean beacon.... there are probably other examples I am not thinking off off hand, plus these are just the examples we know of.

I don't understand what you're arguing here.

The question was 'what has the Alliance' done about the Reaper threat?', with the implication that TIM has done more. Both the Alliance and TIM dismissed Shepard's original squad as having nothing to do with Shepard's victory. The Alliance dismissed them too, but TIM doesn't even want Shepard to talk to them.

Whoa, where does the greed for Collector tech come from? Based on information the game and the novels provide, it's obvious that TIM wants to help humanity.

A combination of withholding vital intel (including further proof of the Reapers) and possibility that TIM knew about the Collector base in advance somehow (which would explain the nature of the team he was building and why a frigate was sent against the Collectors alone, especially knowing its stealth functions were compromised.

Even not knowing about the collector base in advance, the question arises, 'why the consistant withholding of intel in the face of a Reaper invasion?' We know that TIM does believe Shepard about the Reaper threat. One of the main reasons that Cerberus is acting alone against the reapers though is that they have undermined the ability and will of all other major powers to do so. The collector base is an obvious potential reason. It also explains why TIM is so upset at the destruction of the base.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The point. Spelled out. Since you missed it.

All. You. Have. Spelled out. Is that. You. Can type. Like Shatner talks.

Care to try again?

Not particularly. You have a most remarkable ability to read words and then interpret them in wildly fanciful directions they were never indicating or supporting.

Thank you for confirming that you have no actual point.

[expanding panic]

It depends on your definition of evil. I would tend to agree with the OP. TIM is doing what he feels is best for the human race no matter what the cost. So if you are a human then I would say no he is not evil. If you are another race then yes they probably see him as evil.

[MasterofMunchaster]

personally I would have done the except same thing as TIM.. I mean it's nothing more then being extremely patriotic.. and what's wrong with that.. I mean.. aliens can suck my d"ck.. Humans are destined to rule the galaxy..

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There was also a chance that a "coordinated attack" may end in disaster. Until Horizon there was no indication that it's just one ship, big but vulnerable. TIM was gathering intelligence on the Collectors. Which is the real explanation for everything that happens in ME2, including the "suicide mission": go take a look what's beyond the O-4 relay.

That is a better answer at least, however if the other powers had been involved, or even just the Alliance, they would have been able to confirm that there was a threat. A remote drone could have been enough to watch over Horizon while the fleet stayed out of range so as not to spook the collectors.

Besides, he also had Shepard withhold data on the seekers.

Refusing to shoot down an enemy vessel when it is in the middle of attacking a colony, letting it escape and having no way to shadow it isn't 'gathering intel.' The Alliance didn't even need a fleet there. The collector ship is really not that tough.

[XCaptainXShepardX]

He isn't really evil. he is just very egoistic and human-centric. He wants humanity to rule all other races, which is wrong. Oh, i love that face when i reject to keep the Collector Base in one piece.

[CoolCR]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
There was also a chance that a "coordinated attack" may end in disaster. Until Horizon there was no indication that it's just one ship, big but vulnerable. TIM was gathering intelligence on the Collectors. Which is the real explanation for everything that happens in ME2, including the "suicide mission": go take a look what's beyond the O-4 relay.

O-4 relay suicide mission will never make any senses for me we know there prothens they are there for 50k years doing what there base is hardly what I could call a fortress and they only have one ship wtf have the reapers been doing with them for all that time having Collector version of the sims is one reaper going "hay look look harbringer you got to see this i traped 34 collectors in a room with no doors" Harbringer "im making the next reaper humanoid so he can roley eyes and facepalm which is an ability i really need right now" first reaper "come on you got to see this i even took the toilet out" Harbringer "at least i still have self destruct 5...4...3...2...1..." 50k years to build one ship its mind boggling.

Also why all the investment in a stealth ship the enemy can see clear as day what the hell???

Moiaussi wrote...
Besides, he also had Shepard withhold data on the seekers.

No Shepards just a dick you can send classified cerberus data to the alliance during one of the mission you can send anything to anyone while your plant side. Its like the hardsuit recodings of all the the missions in ME1 never got to the council Shepard just forgot DOH!!!!

Is the Illusive Man Really Evil?
It depends on your own perspective
If you draw no lines and anything even genocide is in play as long as you win then he's dude.

If you think expermenting on civilians is wrong but the odd politiacal assassination is fair game the he's a bit out there.
If your a true blue boy scout who wouldnt hurt anyone who didin't have it coming then he's a ruthless evil git.

Modifié par CoolCR, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:22 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I don't have much of a problem with him. He does what he must to achieve victory, and I admire that. The politicians on the Citadel do nothing for me. TIM brought me back from the dead and is ready to help me fight the Reapers when they arrive.

Cerberus has done some terrible things in the past, no question. But we have to focus on what's happening now. The reaper threat is more important.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There was also a chance that a "coordinated attack" may end in disaster. Until Horizon there was no indication that it's just one ship, big but vulnerable. TIM was gathering intelligence on the Collectors. Which is the real explanation for everything that happens in ME2, including the "suicide mission": go take a look what's beyond the O-4 relay.

That is a better answer at least, however if the other powers had been involved, or even just the Alliance, they would have been able to confirm that there was a threat. A remote drone could have been enough to watch over Horizon while the fleet stayed out of range so as not to spook the collectors.

Besides, he also had Shepard withhold data on the seekers.

Refusing to shoot down an enemy vessel when it is in the middle of attacking a colony, letting it escape and having no way to shadow it isn't 'gathering intel.' The Alliance didn't even need a fleet there. The collector ship is really not that tough.

Anyway, Horizon was totally expendable.

[Zulu_DFA]

PrimalEden wrote...

To answer your question Zulu, Alliance.
That a high ranking officer like Anderson is actively working against Cerberus is one of several other instances of what humans think about the organization that's about humanity
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a person's opinion, but insulting them is another thing.

Key word: actively. And since Anderson it the only one in the Alliance who is actively working against Cerberus, it makes him a traitor. Not in the legal, but in moral sense. He betrayed the Alliance to the Turians. Cerberus did not.

[Moiaussi]

CoolCR wrote...

No Shepards just a dick you can send classified cerberus data to the alliance during one of the mission you can send anything to anyone while your plant side. Its like the hardsuit recodings of all the the missions in ME1 never got to the council Shepard just forgot DOH!!!!

That made absolutely no sense though (and was likely bad writing). If nothing else, it is a safe bet that if TIM could and would jam transmissions from the Collector vessel (also questionable how he could do that so easily without said vessel noticing), then he could certainly monitor and jam/prohibit any transmissions from the Normandy, likely without Shepard even knowing. There is no acknowledgement of the receipt of the data, after all.

As for hardsuit recordings, I don't think it has been established that the suits even have that capacity. Certainly it isn't in the games....