965 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

gloops wrote...

For that statement to be meaningful, you have to present evidence showing that the Alliance is particularly bad for humanity. Is there such evidence in the books? I don't know of any. There certainly isn't in the games.

What did the Alliance do when human colonies were being abducted? What has the Alliance done in the face of the Reaper threat?

Those are just two examples.

For Keelah's sake, the colonies out in the Terminus system chose to leave the Alliance so there wouldn't be 'big government' which means the Alliance isn't responsible if they start disappearing, they have the colonies that don't have pissyfits to worry about protecting.
And why do people seem to think that everyone knows about the Reapers? Why do people think that Shep knows everything that is being done to counter the Reapers? The lower people in the Alliance may not know about the Reapers since "Hey, sentient starships that operate on a cycle of killing all spacefaring life are coming. Remember that ship at the Citadel? That was one of them, there are thousands more probably" isn't exactly good for moral so they would be doing it more secretively. And if your best operative was declared KIA to years ago and suddenly shows up having tea with a bunch of terrorists, would you trust him?

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The point. Spelled out. Since you missed it.

All. You. Have. Spelled out. Is that. You. Can type. Like Shatner talks.

Care to try again?

Not particularly. You have a most remarkable ability to read words and then interpret them in wildly fanciful directions they were never indicating or supporting.

Thank you for confirming that you have no actual point.

I'd compliment you on the superb irony, except that it's apparent it isn't intentional on your part.

[CoolCR]

Moiaussi wrote...

That made absolutely no sense though (and was likely bad writing). If nothing else, it is a safe bet that if TIM could and would jam transmissions from the Collector vessel (also questionable how he could do that so easily without said vessel noticing), then he could certainly monitor and jam/prohibit any transmissions from the Normandy, likely without Shepard even knowing. There is no acknowledgement of the receipt of the data, after all.

From: Alliance Command

Commander:

We got the data you sent. If this went public, it could do some serious
damage to Cerberus' image. This intel will take years to decode, but
just having it is a huge win for the Alliance.

Well done, Shepard. Good luck on your mission.

--Anderson


Maybe you didnt get anything but i got this could be fake but whats the point im going to see Anderson shep could ask him hows the decoding going if he says what you talkin about boy then shep would know something up sadly hes a brick with no inteligence.

Moiaussi wrote...
As for hardsuit recordings, I don't think it has been established that the suits even have that capacity. Certainly it isn't in the games....

I hate her to but if you talk to Ash she unforunalty does say at least we have are hardsuit recodings sigh In my mind I see shepard going :blink:"omg the ones i just used for omni gel" and everyone goes <_<"sigh this is why we cannot have nice things like a council fleet".

So when i go to the citadel and stand infront of anderson TIM can jam my
converstion so i cannot tell him the loacation of the deralict reaper
and shepard cannot bring Morden to any terminal on Illiam to upload the
seaker swarms counter messuer designes no shepard is just a dick a grunt
with a gun and no brain sorry there is no redemtion Just like his
I WILL KILL YOU SAREN at the council hearing what the hell that will
win you points with the peace loveing council.

I dont think we really needed shep for ME2 any one could have stepped in to fill the void hell strap guns and wheels on one of the indistructable boxes and you would have a better soldier to.

Anyway sorry everyone so far off topic, I think TIM before ME2 had lost sight of what he was doing now with a clear enemy i think he will get a little better and also the events of Retrebution should help him see the costs of a fail up close and personal that should make him a little more decent for ME3 assuming he lives more than 10 mins into the game not always a given with bioware.

Modifié par CoolCR, 22 janvier 2011 - 08:13 .

[Merchant2006]

@CoolCR ^



Forgive me, I couldn't help myself. Reading that part of your post made me burst out with laughter.

-------------------------

I think I'll stand by what I've said a lot of times and state that the Illusive Man isn't "morally grey" but a seriously sick and evil man. Handing him the collector base isn't a good idea, never ever will be. Something about him just isn't right ^^.

[CoolCR]

Merchant2006 wrote...

@CoolCR ^
Forgive me, I couldn't help myself. Reading that part of your post made me burst out with laughter.

Sorry name spelling is always a bad one for me even worse than regular spelling.

Modifié par CoolCR, 22 janvier 2011 - 08:16 .

[Merchant2006]

CoolCR wrote...

Merchant2006 wrote...

@CoolCR ^
Forgive me, I couldn't help myself. Reading that part of your post made me burst out with laughter.

Sorry name spelling is always a bad one for me even worse than regular spelling.

Hey man, don't worry about it. It happens. But I do however consider what you said, TIM perhaps might be willing to work with 'aliens' as he knows that while the Reapers 'were' a threat to humanity, the threat will spread to the rest of the galaxy. He might have lost his way before with all the stuff you see happening in ME1 and is more focused in ME2, but I doubt he will have changed much. He's out to protect human interests and stop the Reapers, but I'm sure he isn't about to ignore the fact that with all of the races combined will the galaxy be able to fight back against the Reapers, so I think he's willing to compromise for that reason only.

Other than that, he's no different than what he 'was'. An ass ^^.

[CoolCR]

Im not just thinking of ME2 im thinking the whole thing with Grayson the station he's on is attacked the he get to see his dead agents in person I hope it bring some of the realitys of what he's doing back to him but Im with you on he wont change much.
Just maybe a few less human experiments without concent.

We dont actual know how bad the testing for there anti Asari biotic drug was as if they treat other human poorly i shudder to think what went on there.

Modifié par CoolCR, 22 janvier 2011 - 08:41 .

[Moiaussi]

CoolCR wrote...

You make some good points, but despite what you say about Shep and either his stupidity or unexplained willingness (and inconsistancy) in following orders, TIM does still order Shep not to send the data.

It is a safe bet that either TIM didn't want Shep to send the embarrassing data regarding Cerberus, or said data was merely misinformation to throw anyone reading it off.

In other words, Shepard being  willing to be an accomplice doesn't lead to the conclusion that TIM's actions are alright. TIM still ordered suppression of the information, and you haven't justified the times TIM withheld info from Shepard.

By the way, the strongest evidence woudn't have been deliverable. TIM didn't give out the info regarding the reaper hulk in advance, and since Shepard encountered (and presumably reported) that hull in ME1, we know that TIM has been withholding its nature for some time. The other main piece of evidence, the beacon, couldn't have been sent via transmission, and we know for a fact that when it comes down to it, Joker will obey orders from TIM over those of Shepard. He wouldn't even let Shepard hear from TIM while en route anywhere. If TIM calls, Joker appearantly stops the ship mid flight until TIM is satisfied....

(frankly I put it down to bad writing, right up there with Shepard ranting OMG, REAPERS every chance he gets, then being surprised when others think he is just loony).

Modifié par Moiaussi, 22 janvier 2011 - 09:37 .

[Arijharn]

I think it's pretty obvious that the Systems Alliance is only interested in protecting the Systems Alliance. They don't speak for humanity (at least, those humans that don't pay their taxes), so why would they seek to go out of their way to protect those that don't?



Face it, the only reason they were on Horizon was because they wanted to check the veracity of the rumour that their best (Shephard) wasn't actually their's any longer.

[lovgreno]

Merchant2006 wrote...

Other than that, he's no different than what he 'was'. An ass ^^.

Sure he is. But he is a necesary ass. At least for the moment.
But as all leaders his first priority seems to be to stay in power and gain more of it, partly because he wants to help humanity though so he is not realy evil. But the Alliance and Council are like that too so you basicaly got a galaxy full of asses. Wich makes it more realistic actualy.

[Fromyou]

With the Collectors base... I think that he had a right to be mad because the technology in there could save lives against the reapers

[PauseforEffect]

It was one of the reasons, but not at the top of his list. He was more mad because it could have secured human dominance

[AxoneNeurone]

Evil is a dodgy concept, so I will simply say that, at worst, the Illusive Man has proven himself to be selfish and woefully incompetent.

My first beef with him arose with the novel Ascension (spoilers for the novel follow). He was willing to sacrifice a young girl to feed his desire for human dominance (not equality, dominance). It is clear over the course of the book that he is not interested in fully understanding the intricate working of human biotics, but rather simply how powerful a human biotic can get. There are major differences between these goals. The ascension program moved with deliberate, scientific slowness, preserving its students even as it studied them. The Illusive Man wanted answers quickly, and subjected a young human girl to experimental chemicals in order to ultimately make her more powerful.

And what would he have done with this knowledge? Likely, he would have used her as a weapon or an agent to further his goals. She was a sacrifice for his own ambition. Selfish! It's ironic that, in the end, the quarian characters of the novel display much more humanity than the Illusive Man does when they shield and protect a mentally-unbalanced little girl they barely know and who isn't even their species. (spoilers end)

My second beef came with Mass Effect 2 and Jack's backstory. Jack was horribly traumatized as a child, and other children lost their lives or were equally broken by the Pragia facility. As if that wasn't enough, since her escape, Jack has wreaked unimaginable havoc on the galaxy. To be sure, she is responsible for all of the human and alien lives she's ruined, but to an extent, so is the Illusive Man.

So the Pragia team went rogue. The Illusive Man is the leader. If he can't lead, then he has no purpose being in control. He has grown too powerful too quickly, without the galactic know-how to keep his team-members reigned in properly. Jack was the result of his lack of control. Incompetence! I understand that he's only one man, but he's the one who put himself in that position. If he wants to by human's scion of salvation, he has to be tough on himself. When confronted about it, he doesn't own up to it. "I didn't know" doesn't cut it when so many lives are at stake.

And, given the way Cerberus operates--with individual cels acting wholly ignorant and independent of one another--I doubt he really didn't know. But that's just personal conjecture.

Overlord and Akuze can also be blamed on him for the same reason. He lost control of his own freaking operation. So why is he still running this organization?

Retribution settled it for me, though (spoilers for the novel follow). He experiments on Grayson to try and understand more about the process of indoctrination and the Reaper threat. This is heinous, but considering it's the fate of one human versus all sentient life, I can see his reasoning there. However, assuming that he will be able to safely do this, to completely outwit an intelligence that has existed for potentially hundreds of thousands of years before he was even born, after he's already been shown a fool for his lack of control of his own organization, is beyond presumptuous.

And he pays for it. Thanks to his actions, sentient life is closer to being wiped out than it had come since the effects of Mass Effect. And what did he learn from it? Jack squat. Mass Effect 3 might show us that the events of the novel did result in some data, but at the end of the novel Mr. Illusive has nothing to own himself up to except a bunch of dead people and, worse, human intel in Reaper hands.

Because the Illusive Man experimented on Grayson, because he lost control of the experiment and Grayson escaped, Grayson accessed and sent at least part of Ascension Project's database to the Reapers. The book itself states that this is no small amount of information, calling it several "trillians of terabytes."  He was interrupted before he could finish (thanks to Anderson, ass-kicker and politician-puncher extraordinaire), but the book is not specific on just how much data the Reapers have by the end. It could be a little, but it could just as easily be a lot. Hell, the very reason they know the location of Earth could be because of this intel. It certainly didn't hurt their cause. And who's to blame for that?

The Illusive Man. (spoilers end here)

As far as villains go, the Bioware team has done a good job of making him purely unlikable. He's not even a "magnificent bastard" type of villain, though, like Saren was. He's just an object of utmost contempt. But that's just my analysis. I hope they don't keep trying to force us to like him in Mass Effect 3. While I admit he's necessary, he is just, for now, a means to an end.

[Dean_the_Young]

PrimalEden wrote...

It was one of the reasons, but not at the top of his list. He was more mad because it could have secured human dominance

Whether it was at the top of the list or not, why does it matter?

Does it invalidate the anger? Would he have not felt angry if we took away the top motivator? 

[hawat333]

No, he isn't evil.

He is a character important enough in the game to have a good motivation.

Or at least I hope so.

[Fromyou]

hawat333 wrote...

No, he isn't evil.
He is a character important enough in the game to have a good motivation.
Or at least I hope so.

having good motivation though doesn't make him good maybe benevolent. v

[PauseforEffect]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

PrimalEden wrote... It was one of the reasons, but not at the top of his list. He was more mad because it could have secured human dominance

Whether it was at the top of the list or not, why does it matter? Does it invalidate the anger? Would he have not felt angry if we took away the top motivator?

Priorities. If he had shown a bit more concern for people's lives first, I wouldn't be so quick to label him evil. It also would have sounded more convincing when he claims to be about humanity. The e-mail he gives before the Omega 4 Relay spoke mainly about the Collectors sending an insult. Would have liked to hear a message closer to "Shepard, please bring our people back home if you can. Our people are valuable."
I do appreciate you keeping your questions polite about my comments.

[didymos1120]

PrimalEden wrote...
Would have liked to hear a message closer to "Shepard, please bring our people back home if you can. Our people are valuable."

Would you have actually found such a message convincing?

[PauseforEffect]

It would have sounded more consistent with his statement that his people are more valuable to him than as just mere tools.

Believed it? Only if the rest of what he said and did matched.

[Arijharn]

I dunno, he was pretty concerned with his people when he determined that going after the Reaper IFF wasn't worth the potential losses of even more of his staff... he only sent you because he had too, there was no other alternative.



I don't think he sets out to kill his staff (because that would be plain inefficient at worst, at best clinically stupid) but I'm pretty sure they all sign up knowing the risks involved. I see it as sort of an implied statement, do what you can, but don't beat yourself up if you fail.



Maybe he thought that if he pressured you into entering the O4 gate early, you might suffer more (i.e., a mission failure).

[Swaggacide]

I do not know I just think the helping of people seems to be secondary to his power lust

[gloops]

I don't think he sets out to kill his staff (because that would be plain inefficient at worst, at best clinically stupid) but I'm pretty sure they all sign up knowing the risks involved. I see it as sort of an implied statement, do what you can, but don't beat yourself up if you fail.

From what Jacob and Miranda say it seems all staff on the Lazarus Project signed up fully aware of the risks. Based on that I think signing up knowledgable of the risks is standard operating procedure for Cerberus projects.

Modifié par gloops, 24 janvier 2011 - 10:16 .

[Moiaussi]

gloops wrote...

I don't think he sets out to kill his staff (because that would be plain inefficient at worst, at best clinically stupid) but I'm pretty sure they all sign up knowing the risks involved. I see it as sort of an implied statement, do what you can, but don't beat yourself up if you fail.

From what Jacob and Miranda say it seems all staff on the Lazarus Project signed up fully aware of the risks. Based on that I think signing up knowledgable of the risks is standard operating procedure for Cerberus projects.

So based on the word of the sole surviving staff, both of them officers, who give no indication of having done anything to try to help any other crew members (note that they don't even look at the bot controls when they meet in the bot control rool), everything was done nicely.

Pardon my preference to have a more objective source of information.

Particularly given the degree to which TIM has no problems withholding vital information....

[Arijharn]

I don't think people join up with Cerberus without some degree of knowledge of what they could be in for. Not specifics, but I strongly doubt they enter wide eyed. They seem to understand that some risks are involved, and that death may result.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think people join up with Cerberus without some degree of knowledge of what they could be in for. Not specifics, but I strongly doubt they enter wide eyed. They seem to understand that some risks are involved, and that death may result.

Actually it is exactly the kind of organization people enter into wide eyed. It is unlikely that the majority of people working for Cerberus are in it for the great pay or stunning dental plan. They are in it because they have bought into the ideology, and that kind of approach has been known to blind people.

Not saying everyone in Cerberus is like that, but it would be common.