965 réponses à ce sujet

[volus4life]

Moiaussi wrote...

It is unlikely that the majority of people working for Cerberus are in it for the great pay or stunning dental plan. They are in it because they have bought into the ideology, and that kind of approach has been known to blind people.

come to think of it, everyone in on the normandy has great teeth IIRC.

Modifié par volus4life, 24 janvier 2011 - 11:08 .

[gloops]

So based on the word of the sole surviving staff, both of them officers, who give no indication of having done anything to try to help any other crew members (note that they don't even look at the bot controls when they meet in the bot control rool), everything was done nicely.

Jacob has readily shown he's no problem criticizing Cerberus when it's deserving. He also seems to be the kind of person who would be adverse to Cerberus leading people up the garden path to their death. So I don't see why he'd lie in that situation. I guess he easily could, but I think it's more probable that he wouldn't.

Actually it is exactly the kind of organization people enter into wide eyed. It is unlikely that the majority of people working for Cerberus are in it for the great pay or stunning dental plan. They are in it because they have bought into the ideology, and that kind of approach has been known to blind people.

Cerberus often deals with cutting edge technology that's often dangerous, so it stands to reason that those working on the projects are familiar with the technology. In that situation, unless they're mentally impaired in some way, it seems obvious they'd be aware of the risks.

Modifié par gloops, 24 janvier 2011 - 11:13 .

[hawat333]

Fromyou wrote...

hawat333 wrote...

No, he isn't evil.
He is a character important enough in the game to have a good motivation.
Or at least I hope so.

having good motivation though doesn't make him good maybe benevolent. v

Absolutely true, what I meant is, he isn't guided by simple 'evilness' (after all, he doesn't have a long red cape and an ugly helmet) but something more sophisticated.
Basically I think he isn't evil, although he doesn't have ethical concerns when he looks out for his own interests.

[Asheer_Khan]

gloops wrote...

Cerberus often deals with cutting edge technology that's often dangerous, so it stands to reason that those working on the projects are familiar with the technology. In that situation, unless they're mentally impaired in some way, it seems obvious they'd be aware of the risks.

Looking a some "effects" of cerberus dealings with cutting edge techs (like Overlord or "dead" Reaper) they more try to made nuke using hammer and screwdriver risking blowing themselfs out in the process than taking all necessary precautions to actually reduce potential risk for project and team(s) involved in such.



Yes i too want to see AT LEAST ONE cerberus achievement NOT "purchased" by blood of peoples involved in such project but so far no success..., even this so many times praised "success" like reviving Shep was "purchased" by blood of Lazarus team killed by rampaging mechs because someone did let mole (traitor?) to infiltrate team and unleash a hell in critical moment...



No... last thing cerberus need under current "leadership" is access to such place as C-base... in best case scenario they will end inside of that black hole because someone will turn off gravity control system "just to test how this thing work" keeping station in the position... in worts case scenario... total war between humanity (or what remain from her after Harbinger&co "visit" ) and rest of the galaxy because one blue eyed "person" have absolute delusion of grandure...

[Dean_the_Young]

TrapDoor, at least three political assassinations, the Milky Way Foundation infiltration of the Mars Prothean data cache, the infiltration of the human galactic media, pretty much all of their weapons development programs that Cerberus can get his hands on (Collector Armor, Cerberus Assault Armor, Collector Assault Rifle, the chain-lightning gun, the Normandy SR-2, EDI.



Far more than one, but you get the picture.

[Inverness Moon]

PrimalEden wrote...

Priorities. If he had shown a bit more concern for people's lives first, I wouldn't be so quick to label him evil. It also would have sounded more convincing when he claims to be about humanity. The e-mail he gives before the Omega 4 Relay spoke mainly about the Collectors sending an insult. Would have liked to hear a message closer to "Shepard, please bring our people back home if you can. Our people are valuable."
I do appreciate you keeping your questions polite about my comments.

For TIM to say that to Shepard would be stating the completely obvious, especially to someone like Shepard who obviously values her crew.

You should not be quicker to "label him evil" for not bearing his feelings to you. Or perhaps, you shouldn't be trying to reduce people to a label at all.

[Sajuro]

volus4life wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

It is unlikely that the majority of people working for Cerberus are in it for the great pay or stunning dental plan. They are in it because they have bought into the ideology, and that kind of approach has been known to blind people.

come to think of it, everyone in on the normandy has great teeth IIRC.

Don't forget the pensions.
If you reach retirement, you're set.

[Jagri]

[Dean_the_Young]

Whether that's better or worse than Shepard's retirement plan for his enemies, we shall likely never settle.

[Moiaussi]

gloops wrote...

Jacob has readily shown he's no problem criticizing Cerberus when it's deserving. He also seems to be the kind of person who would be adverse to Cerberus leading people up the garden path to their death. So I don't see why he'd lie in that situation. I guess he easily could, but I think it's more probable that he wouldn't.

He could lie out of ideology or because he was paid to, or he could just be a little gullible and blindly trust Miranda. Either way, he doesn't check the controls and they both treat the situation as unsalvageable despite the fact the controls are right there and even if they weren't, Shep has dealt with worse situations. Sure it is important to get him out alive, but surely the base has value too? And if he is not up to taking on a few mechs, is he really the great savior they thought they were bringing back?

Unless of course they simply don't want Shepard thinking about options, and consider the rest of the team expendable just to manipulate Shep....

Cerberus often deals with cutting edge technology that's often dangerous, so it stands to reason that those working on the projects are familiar with the technology. In that situation, unless they're mentally impaired in some way, it seems obvious they'd be aware of the risks.

It is one thing to work with dangerous technology. It is another to be working with dangerous tech in a situation where your boss deliberately withholds information about half the dangers simply as a science experiment to find better ways for humans to deal with emergencies. By its very nature, safe bet that aspect of the job isn't in the employee handbook.

[Dean_the_Young]

PrimalEden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

PrimalEden wrote... It was one of the reasons, but not at the top of his list. He was more mad because it could have secured human dominance

Whether it was at the top of the list or not, why does it matter? Does it invalidate the anger? Would he have not felt angry if we took away the top motivator?

Priorities. If he had shown a bit more concern for people's lives first, I wouldn't be so quick to label him evil. It also would have sounded more convincing when he claims to be about humanity. The e-mail he gives before the Omega 4 Relay spoke mainly about the Collectors sending an insult. Would have liked to hear a message closer to "Shepard, please bring our people back home if you can. Our people are valuable."

I think we can all agree that TIM's dominant priority isn't the lives of his people: Cerberus is a messiah-istic self-martyrdom group 'for  the greater good of humanity' , and pretty much everyone who signs on with Cerberus believes and accepts that they may die, or be called to die, or arrested and hanged, in the pursuit of that objective.

It's fundamentally similar to an officer's delimma in any conventional military as well: you can't fight a war without losing people, and it's the military's job to win the war with the fewest losses possible, not to minimize losses and possibly win the war.

TIM has been willing to set out to risk his people, yes, but the intentional risks he has done in our knowledge have nearly always been for justifiably far greater gains: risking Shepard to get in the Collector Cruiser databanks to get critical data, and risking a team on the Derilect Reaper in order to end the colony  abductions as fast as possible. It may be cruel math, but losing a hundred-man team to get results now rather than waiting for ensured safety of that team and risking a multi-thousand population loss in another colony attack is not without a moral rational, ethical. Nor does it mean that the person who makes that decision doesn't value the lives he or she risks.

Priority wise? No, the subordinates don't come first. This isn't something unique or abhorrent to TIM alone. Moreover, it's not TIM's call to make: more than anything, he's invested responsibility and objectivity on Shepard's shoulders, in the faith that Shepard will do what's necessary to complete the mission. TIM's opinion isn't called for, or necessary, nor likely to be accepted if offered.

But simply because he doesn't put his people above everything else doesn't mean he doesn't care for them. 'Not first' doesn't mean 'last.'

I do appreciate you keeping your questions polite about my comments.

I do it because you deserve it. I might not always agree with you, but I do respect you.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's fundamentally similar to an officer's delimma in any conventional military as well: you can't fight a war without losing people, and it's the military's job to win the war with the fewest losses possible, not to minimize losses and possibly win the war.

That is a legitimate point. I think the counter is the degree to which he withholds information is an issue though, especially in situations like Akuze where it is done just to see what the effects of whatever kind of attack are.

There is no indication that he gave any of the science team he sent on to the Reaper any warning what to expect or avoid either.

While some degree of withholding information makes sense, when it is done to the degree it jeopardizes the actual mission or war, it becomes questionable.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's fundamentally similar to an officer's delimma in any conventional military as well: you can't fight a war without losing people, and it's the military's job to win the war with the fewest losses possible, not to minimize losses and possibly win the war.

That is a legitimate point. I think the counter is the degree to which he withholds information is an issue though, especially in situations like Akuze where it is done just to see what the effects of whatever kind of attack are.

There is no indication that he gave any of the science team he sent on to the Reaper any warning what to expect or avoid either.

They clearly knew about Indoctrination by their logs, and also did tests on possible sources of deliberate Reaper activity (no active nano-technology) to confirm that the Reaper should have been brain-'dead'. Which, it should be noted, it pretty much was.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They clearly knew about Indoctrination by their logs, and also did tests on possible sources of deliberate Reaper activity (no active nano-technology) to confirm that the Reaper should have been brain-'dead'. Which, it should be noted, it pretty much was.

I'll have to re-play that or rewatch it sometime, but they don't seem to even suspect indoctrination in a lot of the recordings. If they had better outside supervision, and rotated out more (with proper quarantining), it would have been a lot better an expedition.

It could just be sloppiness rather than evil though. I guess it comes down to whether TIM was monitoring the situation or not, and to what degree.

In most such situations, indoctrination or no, if personell start acting the way the research team were they normally would be pulled for psych evaluation anyway in case they broke down for much more mundane reasons, even from just being away from home too long.

[Nightwriter]

I haven't visited this thread in a while. Did it ever define what it means by "evil"?

[Bailyn242]

gloops wrote...

They moved to give foreign human colonies big guns, completely at Alliance expense and despite those colonies were not part of the Alliance and thus not contributing anything to the Alliance.

Too bad it's manifest that the big guns will be ineffective against the Collectors. The only reason the guns had any effect on Horizon was because of Cerberus.

This is a blatant attempt at claiming something just to claim it. The fact that the Normandy Crew was able to fix the guns was not the individuals that they used but that they had the personnel onsite to fix the targeting systems. Had TIM actually done as Shepard asked when he gave him/her the mission the Alliance would have had ships and personnel onsite to do the same. Not only that but the ship would not have escaped with the colonists. What was a minor victory would have been a HUGE Victory for Humanity, The systems Alliance and the Fleet in the minds of the people. Obviously not something TIM wants or Shepard would have been a full fledged Spectre the moment he/she wake up. Nope, he lied about Liara, he lied about the VS, he doesn't want Shepard to have allies, he wants him/her solely dependent on Cerberus and identified with them to create/reinforce the belief that "Cerberus gets things done".

Anderson was withholding information from Shepard as to Ashley's deployment, so it is possible that they are doing more in the region than they are letting Shepard (and thus, us as readers/players) know.

gloops wrote...

Human colonies were being abducted for a while. Cerberus comes along with Shepard and co. and, suddenly, the abductions stop. That tells me that the Alliance is incredibly inept or doesn't care about helping the colonists. Neither are admirable traits. 

It tells me that TIM and Cerberus witheld information that the Alliance could have used to stop the attacks until "his team" could ride to the rescue and make him look good. Nothing else. Give the Alliance or even just Anderson the information that he gave Shepard and the game is over way early.

Note that TIM had intel regarding such abductions as well, and near as we can tell, superior intel, yet withheld it from the Alliance, begging the question whether he is really protecting humanity or just power hungry.

gloops wrote...

Didn't he just withhold the information in regards to Horizon? Also, withholding the information regarding Horizon was necessary. If he shares the information the Alliance potentially gets in the way and muddies up Shepard's operation.

Foolish and irresponsible. Witholding that information puts him on the hook for the lives of half of the colony. With the Alliance they capture or destroy the Collector Ship. Instead they got away. No amount of excuses about them muddying the water or getting in Shepard's way is an acceptable excuse. It is all a product of his keeping Shepard from reconnecting with the established authorities. If Shepard is not tainted by the Cerberus brush then the Alliance Fleet would be acting under the orders of the investigating Spectre on scene. 

Keep in mind that TIM recruited only the human crew, and did his best to discourage Shepard from reconnecting with any of the others, so TIM did exactly the same thing in that regard.

We have a BINGO

gloops wrote...
I don't understand what you're arguing here.

So please, again, precisely how is Cerberus acting on behalf of humanity or the galaxy rather than TIM's greed for collector tech?

Whoa, where does the greed for Collector tech come from? Based on information the game and the novels provide, it's obvious that TIM wants to help humanity.

What's all this talk about bullying?

Apparently disagreeing with someone is an indication of bullying.

TIM's desire to help humanity is twisted by his skewed perspective. He controls all Cerberus Cells, all of them. No one else is in the decision chain. This and his "I hide on a space station no one can find" are what lead to the sheer frequency that his "cells" go "rogue". There is little to no oversight other than his calls from the beyond. It is explicitly stated that there is no communication between cells so there is no one to report wrong doing to TIM. His need for control is either the main reason that Cerberus cells pull stupid stunts that blacken the name (Overlord, Teltin, myriad research bases throughout ME1). If there was more oversight and FAR more review and accountability than results Cerberus would not be the splinter group it is currently viewed as. If, when you choose to destroy the base you could take over Cerberus then that perception would change, as long as TIM continues to run the group with no oversight or accountability, save for after the fact executions, it will continue to be regarded as it is. 

Heck, if there'd been an option at the beginning of the game, I'd have capped Miranda and took the Shuttle to the Citadel from Day one, either that or I'd have said goodbye and then gotten coms back online and called for pickup.

"Councillor, I'm back. Cerberus rebuilt me and thought they could force me to work for them, I dissuaded them. Now what is this crap I'm hearing about entire Human Colonies disappearing?"

More once I get caught up on the thread.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 24 janvier 2011 - 09:25 .

[Bailyn242]

MasterofMunchaster wrote...

personally I would have done the except same thing as TIM.. I mean it's nothing more then being extremely patriotic.. and what's wrong with that.. I mean.. aliens can suck my d"ck.. Humans are destined to rule the galaxy..

Hey Udina, change your avatar. How dare you blacken a good man's image while peddling the Cerberus line. 

[Bailyn242]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think people join up with Cerberus without some degree of knowledge of what they could be in for. Not specifics, but I strongly doubt they enter wide eyed. They seem to understand that some risks are involved, and that death may result.

Yet during your interviews with the crew after taking possession of the SR-2 seem to indicate that they have very little idea of what is coming. Ken and Gabby in particular state that they really don't know much about Cerberus aside from the Normandy/Lazarus cell. Gardner is a guy who was recruited based on the rep that Cerberus gets it done. No real discussion of the more nefarious history of the group. As for the perky Kelli, well the less said about her the better.  

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

It could just be sloppiness rather than evil though. I guess it comes down to whether TIM was monitoring the situation or not, and to what degree.

In most such situations, indoctrination or no, if personell start acting the way the research team were they normally would be pulled for psych evaluation anyway in case they broke down for much more mundane reasons, even from just being away from home too long.

Or extreme ruthlessness: the gains in getting the IFF immediately (being able to pass the Omega 4 relay, enabling the ending of the Collector colony abductions) was deemed worth risking, and losing the initial Reaper investigation team.


Metaphorically analogous to marching troops through what may or may not be a minefield rather than take a significant delay to bring in mine sweepers and check the whole route: you hope not to lose the people, but even if you do at least the mine field has a path cleared.

Callous, horrific, utilitarian, and certainly worthy of being considered a war crime if forced on the unwilling. But not necessarily stupid, if what's on the other side of that minefield is important enough.

[Terraneaux]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Or extreme ruthlessness: the gains in getting the IFF immediately (being able to pass the Omega 4 relay, enabling the ending of the Collector colony abductions) was deemed worth risking, and losing the initial Reaper investigation team.

Except we know that they had access to other IFF's somehow, due to the ending in which Shepard dies... and Cerberus ships come in to grab the Collector Base.  

[Bailyn242]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

It could just be sloppiness rather than evil though. I guess it comes down to whether TIM was monitoring the situation or not, and to what degree.

In most such situations, indoctrination or no, if personell start acting the way the research team were they normally would be pulled for psych evaluation anyway in case they broke down for much more mundane reasons, even from just being away from home too long.

Or extreme ruthlessness: the gains in getting the IFF immediately (being able to pass the Omega 4 relay, enabling the ending of the Collector colony abductions) was deemed worth risking, and losing the initial Reaper investigation team.


Metaphorically analogous to marching troops through what may or may not be a minefield rather than take a significant delay to bring in mine sweepers and check the whole route: you hope not to lose the people, but even if you do at least the mine field has a path cleared.

Callous, horrific, utilitarian, and certainly worthy of being considered a war crime if forced on the unwilling. But not necessarily stupid, if what's on the other side of that minefield is important enough.

Not really, it's more analogous of discovering a minefield along your route of march and deciding to just march right through it regardless of cost in lives to save the time it would take to map/clear it to move through the area. 

On the other hand, if he was being responsible he'd have warned the troops of the minefield so that they could ensure good spacing and care in where they placed their feet to map a safe path while still moving the troops. You know, rotation of the research groups on to the reaper. No one stays overnight or sleeps within its influence and the moment they start getting the heebeejeebies they are removed from the area. Result, research continues, albeit more slowly and nobody gets huskified.

TIM Epic Fail yet again.

The more I review this thread and all the Cerberus / TIM mistakes and outright criminal failings the more I feel that TIM is not evil, he's just inept.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 24 janvier 2011 - 10:36 .

[Terraneaux]

Bailyn242 wrote...
The more I review this thread and all the Cerberus / TIM mistakes and outright criminal failings the more I feel that TIM is not evil, he's just inept.

Well, he's inept because he's got a very fragile ego the size of a planet, which probably bleeds over into 'evil' territory because he'd rather let people die than give up any sort of control or ever admit he's wrong.  Cerberus has a lot of problems, but if you got rid of TIM, it could be a worthwhile organization.  

[Fromyou]

Nightwriter wrote...

I haven't visited this thread in a while. Did it ever define what it means by "evil"?

Evil=Jerk, harmful, selfish, etc...

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or extreme ruthlessness: the gains in getting the IFF immediately (being able to pass the Omega 4 relay, enabling the ending of the Collector colony abductions) was deemed worth risking, and losing the initial Reaper investigation team.

Metaphorically analogous to marching troops through what may or may not be a minefield rather than take a significant delay to bring in mine sweepers and check the whole route: you hope not to lose the people, but even if you do at least the mine field has a path cleared.

Callous, horrific, utilitarian, and certainly worthy of being considered a war crime if forced on the unwilling. But not necessarily stupid, if what's on the other side of that minefield is important enough.

Your analogy means more than you think.  It is indeed like ording troops through the minefield but without telling them that the minefield is there and thus not giving them the option to devise counter-measures to improve their odds of getting through, basicly not trusting your troops to be loyal enough to carry out the mission.

There are plenty of examples of troops knowingly plowing through proverbial minefields throughout history. The final run on the Collector base is just such a mission. It wouldn't have taken much for that to have been a real suicide mission..... an extra collector cruiser or two..... base shielding that the Normandy couldn't simply fly though to dock..... base systems that EDI couldn't hack after all.... an armed base that simply one shots them with a very big gun.

Or Occuli that don't inexplicably only hit a non-vital area of the ship, and then once inside tone down their weaponry to anti-personel levels, suddenly unable to pierce an interior wall.

And yet Shepard and crew didn't balk for a second against that. If they had, it would have made everything else they had done pretty pointless. Instead, TIM worries that if Shepard is too cautious the Collectors might spook? From what? From a frigate they blew up once already?

Giving the order to go in isn't evil. Deliberately not giving the team the tools and information to make sound judgements is arguably evil.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

I haven't visited this thread in a while. Did it ever define what it means by "evil"?

Traditionally, evil is defined as being selfish to the exclusion/detriment of others.

Hence in the context of this discussion, it is a question of whether TIM really is working for the betterment of humanity, or just of his own power and ego.

Note that someone can rationalize that they are doing things for others, yet still be evil by way of showing disregard for what those others really want or need, thus working for their vision rather than for the actual benefit of others.