965 réponses à ce sujet

[AxoneNeurone]

Bailyn242 wrote...

The more I review this thread and all the Cerberus / TIM mistakes and outright criminal failings the more I feel that TIM is not evil, he's just inept.

That was my point exactly--with a little healthy selfishness thrown in. However, I guess my tl;dr post scared everyone off. 

If you wanna see ineptitude at its greatest, read Redemption. By the end of it the score is Reapers: 1 and Rest of the Galaxy: 0 thanks to The Illusive Man's inability to get stuff done properly.

[Dean_the_Young]

Terraneaux wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Or extreme ruthlessness: the gains in getting the IFF immediately (being able to pass the Omega 4 relay, enabling the ending of the Collector colony abductions) was deemed worth risking, and losing the initial Reaper investigation team.

Except we know that they had access to other IFF's somehow, due to the ending in which Shepard dies... and Cerberus ships come in to grab the Collector Base.  

...because Shepard picked it up from the Derilect Reaper. We know, it was sort of a plot mission.

Why shouldn't Cerberus be able to make copies of the IFF after a Cerberus ship using a Cerberus AI has analyzed and incorporated it?

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Not really, it's more analogous of discovering a minefield along your route of march and deciding to just march right through it regardless of cost in lives to save the time it would take to map/clear it to move through the area. 

On the other hand, if he was being responsible

See, here's where the analogy breaks down in your useage. Whether it was responsible or not.

Yes, the team did know of the risks of Indoctrination. (They talk about it.) Yes, they even did some tests.

But time can be an overriding factor to leisurely safety, and justify immediate losses. Time isn't a luxury in this context: if some set of safety measures take an additional week, that's not simply a week of free time, that's a week in which the Collectors can continue to act with near impunity in resuming and carrying out colony abductions. The cost of safety for a hundred volunteers willing to take a dangerous, even suicidal mission can well be measured in the tens of thousands of non-volunteers.

There is a very real argument for taking a loss for the chance of far greater benefit: tht's the entire point of Shepard recruiting for a suicide mission in the first place. Not because everyone expects to return easy as pie, but because even in dying they might be able to make the trade off worth it.

Losing a team needlessly for no reason might be a sign of incompetence, but accepting a loss for a very real basis is not.

[Bailyn242]

AxoneNeurone wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

The more I review this thread and all the Cerberus / TIM mistakes and outright criminal failings the more I feel that TIM is not evil, he's just inept.

That was my point exactly--with a little healthy selfishness thrown in. However, I guess my tl;dr post scared everyone off. 

If you wanna see ineptitude at its greatest, read Redemption. By the end of it the score is Reapers: 1 and Rest of the Galaxy: 0 thanks to The Illusive Man's inability to get stuff done properly.

Working my way through the books in chronological order now. Almost finished Revelation right now. Got the next 2 waiting in my briefcase. If all goes well they should be done in the next week or so as long as the Mad Wizard Weber doesn't publish a snerk of the next Honor Harrington Novel before then.

[Bailyn242]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Not really, it's more analogous of discovering a minefield along your route of march and deciding to just march right through it regardless of cost in lives to save the time it would take to map/clear it to move through the area. 

On the other hand, if he was being responsible

See, here's where the analogy breaks down in your useage. Whether it was responsible or not.

Yes, the team did know of the risks of Indoctrination. (They talk about it.) Yes, they even did some tests.

But time can be an overriding factor to leisurely safety, and justify immediate losses. Time isn't a luxury in this context: if some set of safety measures take an additional week, that's not simply a week of free time, that's a week in which the Collectors can continue to act with near impunity in resuming and carrying out colony abductions. The cost of safety for a hundred volunteers willing to take a dangerous, even suicidal mission can well be measured in the tens of thousands of non-volunteers.

There is a very real argument for taking a loss for the chance of far greater benefit: tht's the entire point of Shepard recruiting for a suicide mission in the first place. Not because everyone expects to return easy as pie, but because even in dying they might be able to make the trade off worth it.

Losing a team needlessly for no reason might be a sign of incompetence, but accepting a loss for a very real basis is not.

I've got a few more Loyalty missions and Overlord remaining before I hit the Derelict reaper again but on my last play through it sure didn't seem like this was a rush in and research job. Nor did it seem like the team at large was aware of the potential for indoctrination. From what I recall of the Project Lead's log entries he doesn't even mention the threat of indoctrination. He mentions the team starting to see things but no outright discussion of indoctrination. Had TIM mentioned it I'm sure someone would have mentioned it in their logs. 

Another item that supports the not rushed research is the lack of Dragon's Teeth in the huskification of the crew. From everything we've been shown the new huskify me process is a longer and more deliberate process than put corpses on Dragon's Teeth, huskify, rinse and repeat of ME1. They were there for weeks, possibly even before Shepard wakes up at Lazarus Station.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
See, here's where the analogy breaks down in your useage. Whether it was responsible or not.

Yes, the team did know of the risks of Indoctrination. (They talk about it.) Yes, they even did some tests.

But time can be an overriding factor to leisurely safety, and justify immediate losses. Time isn't a luxury in this context: if some set of safety measures take an additional week, that's not simply a week of free time, that's a week in which the Collectors can continue to act with near impunity in resuming and carrying out colony abductions. The cost of safety for a hundred volunteers willing to take a dangerous, even suicidal mission can well be measured in the tens of thousands of non-volunteers.

Time wasn't a factor though. In fact, Shepard didn't show up just as the last of the team succumbed, but some time much later, after they were all huskified. Leaving the judgement calls entirely up to those who would be subject to the mind altering effects is like asking the drunk if he is ok to drive home and taking him at his word.

The drunk does know about the risks of drinking and driving, but already being impaired, is no longer in a position to make a rational assessment.

There is a very real argument for taking a loss for the chance of far greater benefit: tht's the entire point of Shepard recruiting for a suicide mission in the first place. Not because everyone expects to return easy as pie, but because even in dying they might be able to make the trade off worth it.

Losing a team needlessly for no reason might be a sign of incompetence, but accepting a loss for a very real basis is not.

Which comes back to the question of exactly what the point was of withholding the information that it was a trap. Shepard wasn't going to balk. He has walked into similar situations before.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Time wasn't a factor though. In fact, Shepard didn't show up just as the last of the team succumbed, but some time much later, after they were all huskified. Leaving the judgement calls entirely up to those who would be subject to the mind altering effects is like asking the drunk if he is ok to drive home and taking him at his word.

When/how long after Shepard shows up is a matter of plot flex time.

The drunk does know about the risks of drinking and driving, but already being impaired, is no longer in a position to make a rational assessment.

Why assume 'already' impaired, when more than one organization is aware of the risks of Indoctrination beforehand?

Which comes back to the question of exactly what the point was of withholding the information that it was a trap. Shepard wasn't going to balk. He has walked into similar situations before.

Shepard, or someone else in the ship, tipping the Collectors off somehow.

Which, when you consider that the Normandy is bugged by someone other than Cerberus, isn't exactly an idle fear.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Not really, it's more analogous of discovering a minefield along your route of march and deciding to just march right through it regardless of cost in lives to save the time it would take to map/clear it to move through the area. 

On the other hand, if he was being responsible

See, here's where the analogy breaks down in your useage. Whether it was responsible or not.

Yes, the team did know of the risks of Indoctrination. (They talk about it.) Yes, they even did some tests.

But time can be an overriding factor to leisurely safety, and justify immediate losses. Time isn't a luxury in this context: if some set of safety measures take an additional week, that's not simply a week of free time, that's a week in which the Collectors can continue to act with near impunity in resuming and carrying out colony abductions. The cost of safety for a hundred volunteers willing to take a dangerous, even suicidal mission can well be measured in the tens of thousands of non-volunteers.

There is a very real argument for taking a loss for the chance of far greater benefit: tht's the entire point of Shepard recruiting for a suicide mission in the first place. Not because everyone expects to return easy as pie, but because even in dying they might be able to make the trade off worth it.

Losing a team needlessly for no reason might be a sign of incompetence, but accepting a loss for a very real basis is not.

I've got a few more Loyalty missions and Overlord remaining before I hit the Derelict reaper again but on my last play through it sure didn't seem like this was a rush in and research job. Nor did it seem like the team at large was aware of the potential for indoctrination. From what I recall of the Project Lead's log entries he doesn't even mention the threat of indoctrination. He mentions the team starting to see things but no outright discussion of indoctrination. Had TIM mentioned it I'm sure someone would have mentioned it in their logs.

I believe the log you're looking for and not finding is in the first chamber with a scion. The 'dead gods still dream' piece, about how they looked for any active intent in the Reaper beforehand. Corroborated by the pre-entry scans for active nano-technology (and there was none). Clearly they knew they could face some sort of danger aboard the Reaper, so why presume they don't know about Indoctrination?

Another item that supports the not rushed research is the lack of Dragon's Teeth in the huskification of the crew. From everything we've been shown the new huskify me process is a longer and more deliberate process than put corpses on Dragon's Teeth, huskify, rinse and repeat of ME1. They were there for weeks, possibly even before Shepard wakes up at Lazarus Station.

Same chamber with the same scion.

It's easy to miss, but if you take Jacob (possibly Garrus or Tali) into the back of that chamber, there's a 'talk to ----' option that starts a little cut scene. You get a close-up of Cerberus personnel still impaled on 'teeth'.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 janvier 2011 - 01:54 .

[Bailyn242]

I'll check that out tonight... grabbing the faster system from the office for the evening so I can play with decent graphics rendering.

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think people join up with Cerberus without some degree of knowledge of what they could be in for. Not specifics, but I strongly doubt they enter wide eyed. They seem to understand that some risks are involved, and that death may result.

Actually it is exactly the kind of organization people enter into wide eyed. It is unlikely that the majority of people working for Cerberus are in it for the great pay or stunning dental plan. They are in it because they have bought into the ideology, and that kind of approach has been known to blind people.

Not saying everyone in Cerberus is like that, but it would be common.

Honestly, I'm starting to wonder about you.

For example; Cerberus is making the Arc Lightning Gun. I would presume that when they're getting around to actually building and designing the weapon they hire or utilize staff qualified in making it, like, they are acutely aware of what materials to use and where, how to generate the power and how to safely discharge the weapon in the direction of the bad guys (hint; in this situation it's the guys who aren't using the weapon). Likewise, they wouldn't hire a moron who doesn't know anything about microbiology if that person is needed to perform tasks in microbiology (unless you're Miranda, but hey she can do anything she is told too).

That implies to me that those people know the risks involved with the weapon, and if they're getting around to field testing then they'll be able to tell the end user what to expect before printing up a nice glossy instruction manual ("GUYS, POINT THE ION LASER DESIGNATOR AND THE OTHER GUYS WHO ARE SHOOTING AT YOU.")

Be at least quasi-sensible about your debates please, otherwise you're not helping your case imo.

[In Exile]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I believe the log you're looking for and not finding is in the first chamber with a scion. The 'dead gods still dream' piece, about how they looked for any active intent in the Reaper beforehand. Corroborated by the pre-entry scans for active nano-technology (and there was none). Clearly they knew they could face some sort of danger aboard the Reaper, so why presume they don't know about Indoctrination?

The problem here is ROI. Cerberus does not have infinite resources. Presumably, the knowledge & skill of the scientists sent there is rather specialized. Yes, human colonies being lost is something that needs to be dealt with... but moving too fast and losing your team is a bigger catastrophe.

It's a little like when Shepard goes through the Omega-4 Relay. The stakes are so high that jumping too soon, without being ready, could be fatal if Shepard fails to stop the Collectors.

Ironically, this is one time you would think TIM would be ruthless (and justifiable so) with human lives for the sake of the greater goal. But incompetence seems to be his problem, versus evil.

ETA:

To clarify, take this analysis:

Problem: Humanity is outclassed on military, economic and political grounds.
Specific problem: Human military might insufficient to win ground effort against Council races.
Solution: Cheap and replaceable shock troops.

That seems reasonable.

The problem is execution. It is as if the team's that TIM hires are specifically designed to maximize the quantity of evil and fail in their projects instead of success.

Take Overlord: they find David is ideal for the project. David is autistic. The man-machine interface is entirely unpredictable. Obvious solution: take terrified autistic man who does not seem to understand his situation and place him in highly psychologically stressful torture chamber to engage in constant warfare with hyper-advanced AI.

Instead of finding out why David is a candidate and looking to find volunteers that could legitimately push forward their research, they instead go with plan Idiot Ball.

Modifié par In Exile, 25 janvier 2011 - 02:07 .

[Arijharn]

I don't think it's fair for saying he didn't prepare enough because for all we now, they did, but Dr. Chandana looked at something the wrong way inadvertently and set off a sequence of events.



Even in the tragedy though; the team managed to extract the IFF and we might have a starting ideal of how to thwart the Indoctrination process if examination of the science teams psychological records turns up any similarities.

[Flamewielder]

Cerberus knows about endoctrination because they:
1) have access to Shepard's reports to the Alliance (through their Alliance military contacts),
2) have sacrificed a whole colony on Chasca to be "huskified" (UNC: Colony of the Dead)

TIM is no more ruthless than many XXth century Earth democracies who use understatements like "collateral damage", "friendly-fire incidents", "counter-insurgency"... all of which involve people dying to accomplish whatever "just cause" these democratically elected governments happen to find popular...

I think he's a SOB myself and wouldn't trust him further than I could shoot him... I question his ulterior motives beyond the immediate need to deal with the Reaper threat. He's obviously willing to caution actions that are grossly amoral for purposes less noble than fighting the Reapers: all the sick stuff we love/hate him for in ME1 were done long before the existence of Reapers was even suspected. Can I rationalize cooperating with him to stop the Reapers? Not being given an option: Yes. Do I have good reasons to turn him in to the authorities as soon as the last Reaper's blow to bits? Absolutely.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 25 janvier 2011 - 02:25 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When/how long after Shepard shows up is a matter of plot flex time.

So is when the Cerberus operation started though. No matter when Shepard shows up, they are all husked.

Why assume 'already' impaired, when more than one organization is aware of the risks of Indoctrination beforehand?

They didn't all start impaired, but there is no indication of anyone on the team 'not partaking' or acting like a designated driver. None of the members seem to have been rotated off, nor is there any indication of any remote supervision. If there was, what was the benefit of letting them get husked as opposed to moving in and shooting them first, then pulling the hit team back out before they too got coopted?

If nothing else it is not known what is transferred on husking. The reapers might now know everything the research team knew about Cerberus.

Shepard, or someone else in the ship, tipping the Collectors off somehow.

Which, when you consider that the Normandy is bugged by someone other than Cerberus, isn't exactly an idle fear.

If TIM knew about the SB's bugs, why not cut them off? They compromise stealth by their very nature (which btw is a working theory of mine how the collector ship spotted the Normandy in the first place).

More to the point though, why wouldn't the crew be naturally cautious and already assuming the possibliity of a trap? TIM was just relying on Shepard' holding the idiot ball? Why would the collectors simply expect anyone to be that gullible as to take no precautions?

[Bailyn242]

Dean, your missing something, the rate of indoctrination was not equal across the board. Some team members exhibited signs of indoctrination, or at least influenceof the "Dead God" / Reaper before the others. Yet the other team members notice nothing? If TIM had even half a brain the team would be warned to watch for signs of this. They take no actions when odd behavior crops up.

Even if it is a case of the project lead needing results to present TIM and ignoring red tape / procedure, TIM must have understated the threat or not mentioned it (AKA keeping the people who need to know in the dark). Misguided fool or evil control freak, same result...

...HUSKIFIED!

Modifié par Bailyn242, 25 janvier 2011 - 04:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

If TIM knew about the SB's bugs, why not cut them off? They compromise stealth by their very nature (which btw is a working theory of mine how the collector ship spotted the Normandy in the first place).

How familiar are you with the practical importance of 'I know you know I know...' chains?

Moreover, there is the the difference of knowing that you're penetrated, and knowing where and how you're penetrated. This is one of the classical conondrums of a security state: you know the government keeps informants in a population, but you don't necessarily know who those informants are. Simply going by people you trust isn't good enough, because loyalty can be swayed (like the Firewalker Cerberus doctor who aided the Collectors in exchange for his family's protection), and a good spy appears and maintains a reputation of trustworthiness in the first place.

If TIM knew about the SB's bugs (and we don't have an indication he did), that doesn't mean the SB's bugs are the Collectors intel assets. The more relevant point is that TIM's concerns about possible intel infiltration isn't invalid, whether he can prove it or not.

More to the point though, why wouldn't the crew be naturally cautious and already assuming the possibliity of a trap?

The difference between taking the possibility of a trap, and acting on the knowledge of a trap.

In a military analogy: a unit patrolling a road can keep an eye out for IED's, and may find them and disarm them. That's not suspicious in and of itself, and the opponent may choose to launch an attack anyway. But a unit that goes down a road and immediately goes up to every IED, that is another matter entirely, and a strong indicator that the enemy is expecting an attack, and so should not be attacked.

Naturally there are many degrees between these, but the degrees matter as well.

TIM was just relying on Shepard' holding the idiot ball?

Shepard isn't holding an idiot ball in that he's an idiot. Shepard, TIM, and the Collectors are holding a versimillitude ball.

Why would the collectors simply expect anyone to be that gullible as to take no precautions?

Besides the matter of a failing of the medium (sci fi writers are never going to be experts at warfare, science, or espionage), it doesn't require gullibility.

The only reason TIM knows about the Collector Trap being a trap is because he knew something the Collectors did not: the secret secondary-encryption (the code inside the code) of Turian distress signals. Anyone without that extra knowledge would have no reason not to trust the distress signal as legitimately Turian.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Dean, your missing something, the rate of indoctrination was not equal across the board. Some team members exhibited signs of indoctrination, or at least influenceof the "Dead God" / Reaper before the others. Yet the other team members notice nothing? If TIM had even half a brain the team would be warned to watch for signs of this. They take no actions when odd behavior crops up.

And do what? Leave? Abandon or slow down their search? As long as they're still contributing towards the search, they're still productive.

There's a distinct difference between 'not knowing' and 'not caring'.

Even if it is a case of the project lead needing results to present TIM and ignoring red tape / procedure, TIM must have understated the threat or not mentioned it (AKA keeping the people who need to know in the dark). Misguided fool or evil control freak, same result...

...HUSKIFIED!

And? You're missing three quarters of an argument.

You still need to provide any sort of evidence or support that the Derilect Reaper team was kept in the dark about indoctrination, or wasn't aware of the risks of it. Many, many people across history have done willingly gone through on suicidal risks with the advance knowledge that they could die. (Because, you know, suicidal and all.)

Cerberus personnel are widely and nearly uniformly depicted as putting their own survival behind the prospect of success. They wouldn't be the sort of people to join Cerberus in the first place if they were cautious moderates. So why 'must have' TIM deceived them in light of their deaths?

[Zing Freelancer]

I havent read the whole thread, but did anyone notice TIM's eyes?

I mean, they resemble the eyes of Saren and we know Saren was long past being simple Turian.



So its A) TIM is powerful biotic or He is indoctrinated ?

[Dean_the_Young]

Or



C) Non-reaper cybernetic implants



because



D) Biotics have nothing to do with eye-glow



and



E) Neither does indoctrination

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
How familiar are you with the practical importance of 'I know you know I know...' chains?

Moreover, there is the the difference of knowing that you're penetrated, and knowing where and how you're penetrated. This is one of the classical conondrums of a security state: you know the government keeps informants in a population, but you don't necessarily know who those informants are. Simply going by people you trust isn't good enough, because loyalty can be swayed (like the Firewalker Cerberus doctor who aided the Collectors in exchange for his family's protection), and a good spy appears and maintains a reputation of trustworthiness in the first place.

If TIM knew about the SB's bugs (and we don't have an indication he did), that doesn't mean the SB's bugs are the Collectors intel assets. The more relevant point is that TIM's concerns about possible intel infiltration isn't invalid, whether he can prove it or not.

Bugs by their very nature report back to their owners. That reporting is detectable, it is merely a matter of watching for it. Unless the bugs were somehow able to detect the Normandy's stealth systems and shut down accordingly, they would still be sending out periodic 'hey there's a ship here' transmissions. That wouldn't be the intent of the bugs, but would still be the net effect.

In addtion to inadvertantly circumventing the Normandy's stealth, they would also broadcast their information to anyone picking up the transmissions. Then it would just be a matter of said foreign ship decoding them.

In most cases, foreign vessels would not be looking, but as the collectors were actively hunting ships at the time, it is one of the best and easiest ways to find a vessel in deep space. The vessel's transmissions have to be relatively loud to be able to make it to whatever receiver exists. Normally the transmissions would be disguised as 'noise' but as the collectors are associated with the Reapers, a race that has been doing this kind of thing for a rather long time, developing appropriate filters and cryptography routines would be common sense.

The difference between taking the possibility of a trap, and acting on the knowledge of a trap.

In a military analogy: a unit patrolling a road can keep an eye out for IED's, and may find them and disarm them. That's not suspicious in and of itself, and the opponent may choose to launch an attack anyway. But a unit that goes down a road and immediately goes up to every IED, that is another matter entirely, and a strong indicator that the enemy is expecting an attack, and so should not be attacked.

Naturally there are many degrees between these, but the degrees matter as well.

This isn't a random spot along a travel lane. This is a specfic spot. If enemy has just pulled out of a stronghold inexplicably, it is a wise assumption that there might be booby traps, or at least an active self destruct timer. There is no indication that TIM knew exactly what kind of trap or where on the ship it would be sprung or anything like that. It didn't even turn out that they needed to board said vessel. They didn't get its IFF, they meerly learned of it, something they could have done without boarding.

Besides the matter of a failing of the medium (sci fi writers are never going to be experts at warfare, science, or espionage), it doesn't require gullibility.

The only reason TIM knows about the Collector Trap being a trap is because he knew something the Collectors did not: the secret secondary-encryption (the code inside the code) of Turian distress signals. Anyone without that extra knowledge would have no reason not to trust the distress signal as legitimately Turian.

Again, an enemy just seemed to mysteriously abandon their stronghold and you figure said enemy would be tipped off to something if you were cautious entering it or treated it like a possible trap?

This has nothing to do with Turian signals and everything to do with blatant common sense. If anything, the collectors should have been surprised that their trap worked to the extent it did.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 26 janvier 2011 - 05:11 .

[Xilizhra]

F) They're a result of getting hit with some kind of Reaper-y weapon in Evolution.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 janvier 2011 - 05:13 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And do what? Leave? Abandon or slow down their search? As long as they're still contributing towards the search, they're still productive.

There's a distinct difference between 'not knowing' and 'not caring'.

Trade out personell before they become too coopted to be useful, or at least, before they become so coopted they become enemy.

And? You're missing three quarters of an argument.

You still need to provide any sort of evidence or support that the Derilect Reaper team was kept in the dark about indoctrination, or wasn't aware of the risks of it. Many, many people across history have done willingly gone through on suicidal risks with the advance knowledge that they could die. (Because, you know, suicidal and all.)

Cerberus personnel are widely and nearly uniformly depicted as putting their own survival behind the prospect of success. They wouldn't be the sort of people to join Cerberus in the first place if they were cautious moderates. So why 'must have' TIM deceived them in light of their deaths?

Not knowing the existance of and not knowing the risks do not change the fact that when some of the personel start exhibiting symptoms such as assuming the identities of other crew members, they aren't pulled from the team and replaced, or for that matter, not setting up a crew rotation in the first place, with proper quarantining of those pulled out.

You act as if any precautions at all equate to doing something wrong. Does your shepard leave weapons and ammunition behind in the belief that if there is anything dangerous he will conveniently find both in the field?

Common sense precautions aren't some form of weakness. They are common sense.

[Rune-Chan]

Ozzy57 wrote...

I say he's evil....he just wants humans to dominate at all cost, resulting in deaths of humans and has no concern for other races/species in the ME universe

Indeed.

In Mass Effect 2 he seems okay, but if you look at all the side projects they had in Mass Effect 1 and read the books 'Ascension' and 'Revelation' then you can see that he is a pretty bad man overall.

It goes much beyond "We only want humanity to succeed" like he claims. He is willing to torture, murder, commit genocide and many other things in order to achieve this goal, and this is even against other humans.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

F) They're a result of getting hit with some kind of Reaper-y weapon in Evolution.

Or

G) We only ever see him as a hologram so all parts of his appearance are artificial. TIM could really look like an ewok for all we know.

[In Exile]

Moiaussi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

F) They're a result of getting hit with some kind of Reaper-y weapon in Evolution.

Or

G) We only ever see him as a hologram so all parts of his appearance are artificial. TIM could really look like an ewok for all we know.

Miranda would mention if he was an elcor since she did see him in person.