965 réponses à ce sujet

[Reginthorn]

 I am going to say that he works with the Reapers. (I hope that is not the case though!)

[Inverness Moon]

Xilizhra wrote...

F) They're a result of getting hit with some kind of Reaper-y weapon in Evolution.

That first issue of Evolution gave me the idea that the Illusive Man might have formed Cerberus because he predicted the return of the reapers even if he didn't exactly what they were.

Just for the record I think the death ray of huskification is ridiculous.

Reginthorn wrote...

 I am going to say that he works with the Reapers. (I hope that is not the case though!)

Why would you think that? Is it just because he isn't necessarily a "good guy" that he must be in league with the "bad guys" or what? That would be extremely narrow-minded if so.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 janvier 2011 - 05:41 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Machines Are Us wrote...

Ozzy57 wrote...

I say he's evil....he just wants humans to dominate at all cost, resulting in deaths of humans and has no concern for other races/species in the ME universe

Indeed.

In Mass Effect 2 he seems okay, but if you look at all the side projects they had in Mass Effect 1 and read the books 'Ascension' and 'Revelation' then you can see that he is a pretty bad man overall.

It goes much beyond "We only want humanity to succeed" like he claims. He is willing to torture, murder, commit genocide and many other things in order to achieve this goal, and this is even against other humans.

Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

[Inverness Moon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Ozzy57 wrote...

I say he's evil....he just wants humans to dominate at all cost, resulting in deaths of humans and has no concern for other races/species in the ME universe

Indeed.

In Mass Effect 2 he seems okay, but if you look at all the side projects they had in Mass Effect 1 and read the books 'Ascension' and 'Revelation' then you can see that he is a pretty bad man overall.

It goes much beyond "We only want humanity to succeed" like he claims. He is willing to torture, murder, commit genocide and many other things in order to achieve this goal, and this is even against other humans.

Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

Except he didn't really lure the collectors to Horizon at all since they had already targeted it.

Edit:

Moiaussi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

F) They're a result of getting hit with some kind of Reaper-y weapon in Evolution.

Or

G) We only ever see him as a hologram so all parts of his appearance are artificial. TIM could really look like an ewok for all we know.

Except anyone who has read the books would know that isn't the case.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 janvier 2011 - 05:43 .

[In Exile]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

It's a relative cost thing, though. With the stakes being so high with the Collectors, people might be more tolerant of the ends justifying the means versus other more explicitly human supremacist moves.

Was Horizon that populated though? I didn't think it was a colony with 100,000+ people.

[Zulu_DFA]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Ozzy57 wrote...

I say he's evil....he just wants humans to dominate at all cost, resulting in deaths of humans and has no concern for other races/species in the ME universe

Indeed.

In Mass Effect 2 he seems okay, but if you look at all the side projects they had in Mass Effect 1 and read the books 'Ascension' and 'Revelation' then you can see that he is a pretty bad man overall.

It goes much beyond "We only want humanity to succeed" like he claims. He is willing to torture, murder, commit genocide and many other things in order to achieve this goal, and this is even against other humans.

Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

Except he didn't really lure the collectors to Horizon at all since they had already targeted it.

Yeah? So how did he know when the Collectors would arrive on Horizon?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[Rune-Chan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Ozzy57 wrote...

I say he's evil....he just wants humans to dominate at all cost, resulting in deaths of humans and has no concern for other races/species in the ME universe

Indeed.

In Mass Effect 2 he seems okay, but if you look at all the side projects they had in Mass Effect 1 and read the books 'Ascension' and 'Revelation' then you can see that he is a pretty bad man overall.

It goes much beyond "We only want humanity to succeed" like he claims. He is willing to torture, murder, commit genocide and many other things in order to achieve this goal, and this is even against other humans.

Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

I meant from Shepards perspective not ours.

He gets his life back.
He gets a new and improved ship.
His pilot back.
Two of his friends (Garrus and Tali).
The means to fight the Collectors (A crew and resources).

Not to mention that all the crew seem really nice and decent people. Kelly is friendly, the engineers like you, the chef likes you, the crew talk about their family and friends etc. etc.

In the books and in Mass Effect 1 they are all shown as monsters.

[Moiaussi]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Except anyone who has read the books would know that isn't the case.

We know he really does have glowing eyes from the books?

[Zulu_DFA]

Machines Are Us wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Ozzy57 wrote...

I say he's evil....he just wants humans to dominate at all cost, resulting in deaths of humans and has no concern for other races/species in the ME universe

Indeed.

In Mass Effect 2 he seems okay, but if you look at all the side projects they had in Mass Effect 1 and read the books 'Ascension' and 'Revelation' then you can see that he is a pretty bad man overall.

It goes much beyond "We only want humanity to succeed" like he claims. He is willing to torture, murder, commit genocide and many other things in order to achieve this goal, and this is even against other humans.

Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

I meant from Shepards perspective not ours.

He gets his life back.
He gets a new and improved ship.
His pilot back.
Two of his friends (Garrus and Tali).
The means to fight the Collectors (A crew and resources).

Not to mention that all the crew seem really nice and decent people. Kelly is friendly, the engineers like you, the chef likes you, the crew talk about their family and friends etc. etc.

In the books and in Mass Effect 1 they are all shown as monsters.

So a monstrosity is not monstous at all, if Shepard participates in it?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[Rune-Chan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Ozzy57 wrote...

I say he's evil....he just wants humans to dominate at all cost, resulting in deaths of humans and has no concern for other races/species in the ME universe

Indeed.

In Mass Effect 2 he seems okay, but if you look at all the side projects they had in Mass Effect 1 and read the books 'Ascension' and 'Revelation' then you can see that he is a pretty bad man overall.

It goes much beyond "We only want humanity to succeed" like he claims. He is willing to torture, murder, commit genocide and many other things in order to achieve this goal, and this is even against other humans.

Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

I meant from Shepards perspective not ours.

He gets his life back.
He gets a new and improved ship.
His pilot back.
Two of his friends (Garrus and Tali).
The means to fight the Collectors (A crew and resources).

Not to mention that all the crew seem really nice and decent people. Kelly is friendly, the engineers like you, the chef likes you, the crew talk about their family and friends etc. etc.

In the books and in Mass Effect 1 they are all shown as monsters.

So a monstrosity is not monstous at all, if Shepard participates in it?

Shepard doesn't necessarily realise that the Illusive Man had any influence over Horizon. It takes certain dialogue options to reveal anything such as that.

It is possible to go the entire game without seeing anything particularly sinister being done by the Illusive Man beyond him setting you up for a few fights without forewarning you.

I get the strong impression you are deliberately trying to start an argument here.

[Zulu_DFA]

Machines Are Us wrote...

Shepard doesn't necessarily realise that the Illusive Man had any influence over Horizon. It takes certain dialogue options to reveal anything such as that.

It is possible to go the entire game without seeing anything particularly sinister being done by the Illusive Man beyond him setting you up for a few fights without forewarning you.

I get the strong impression you are deliberately trying to start an argument here.

This argument was started long ago. I'm only pointing out that it's funny, how the Cerberus/TIM haters are slow to jump on this opportunity to add this massive "war crime" to the list of "Cerberus crimes". (And still it would be "villainous" at a far lesser scale, than the whole genophage "final solution" to the Krogan problem.)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 janvier 2011 - 06:26 .

[Xilizhra]

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Bugs by their very nature report back to their owners. That reporting is detectable, it is merely a matter of watching for it. Unless the bugs were somehow able to detect the Normandy's stealth systems and shut down accordingly, they would still be sending out periodic 'hey there's a ship here' transmissions. That wouldn't be the intent of the bugs, but would still be the net effect.

Bugs don't need to report back constantly, though: they aren't often beacons (which are relatively easy to spot), but more often interval-update transmitters. There's nothing 'mere' about it, because there's just as much effort in disguising the broadcasts so they won't be noticed as there is effort to look for them. If counter-intelligence were a matter of 'merely', the the intelligence field wouldn't work as well as it does.

Moreover, it's not wise to fixate on the idea of bugs on the Normandy being the only possible source of an intelligence link.

This isn't a random spot along a travel lane. This is a specfic spot. If enemy has just pulled out of a stronghold inexplicably, it is a wise assumption that there might be booby traps, or at least an active self destruct timer. There is no indication that TIM knew exactly what kind of trap or where on the ship it would be sprung or anything like that. It didn't even turn out that they needed to board said vessel. They didn't get its IFF, they meerly learned of it, something they could have done without boarding.

This is also an analogy of the difference of being cautious and being pre-aware, which is the far more relevant aspect. TIM doesn't need to know what exactly the trap is to be aware that the set up is a trap.

Yes, Shepard did need to board the Collector vessel, to get EDI connected within the Collector computer network. Same reason why you need to go back to the console after the platform fight.

Again, an enemy just seemed to mysteriously abandon their stronghold

This isn't actually as uncommon as you imply. Strongholds that can't be defended are evacuated, and if they can not be destroyed in time they are abandoned.

and you figure said enemy would be tipped off to something if you were cautious entering it or treated it like a possible trap?

Contradictory knowledge assumption: TIM knows (or has reason to believe) that the Collectors haven't abandoned the Cruiser. In which case, yes, they would be in a position to watch and look to for differences between caution and prior knowledge... as well as the possibility of other sources of information leaking.

This has nothing to do with Turian signals and everything to do with blatant common sense. If anything, the collectors should have been surprised that their trap worked to the extent it did.

Moiaussi, not to put too fine a point on it but you're repeatedly demonstrated the difference where common sense fails in regards to particularly uncommon situations.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

You know that my love is reserved for Liara, Kelly and Morinth.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

All Cerberus evils are neccessary.

And all the Council past evils were necessary.

The only unnecessary evil in this galaxy is I.P. Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Trade out personell before they become too coopted to be useful, or at least, before they become so coopted they become enemy.

And that's just putting more people under indoctrination effect, and slowing down the search by bringing in people less familiar with the operation. Without more studies into the extents of indoctrination, there's a valid concern that those people switched out going to be permanently compromised regardless: in this case, you aren't minimizing casualties, you're expanding them.

If the point is that speed trumps lives to such a degree, that's still the point that will dominate other decisions.

Not knowing the existance of and not knowing the risks do not change the fact that when some of the personel start exhibiting symptoms such as assuming the identities of other crew members, they aren't pulled from the team and replaced, or for that matter, not setting up a crew rotation in the first place, with proper quarantining of those pulled out.

They weren't replaced: how does this demonstrate they weren't aware or weren't fore-warned about the danger of the situation?

You act as if any precautions at all equate to doing something wrong.

No, I don't.

Does your shepard leave weapons and ammunition behind in the belief that if there is anything dangerous he will conveniently find both in the field?

Poor analogy.

Far more accurate analogy is that my Shepard (Ruthless) continues with the fight and the mission even when teammates are killed and wounded by the enemies.

Common sense precautions aren't some form of weakness. They are common sense.

When common sense interferes with higher priorities, it isn't good sense. It's just common.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

You know that my love is reserved for Liara, Kelly and Morinth.

The Crime Lord, the Free Lover, and the Serial Killer.

[STG]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

You know that my love is reserved for Liara, Kelly and Morinth.

Good luck with that.

Modifié par STG, 26 janvier 2011 - 06:37 .

[DarthSliver]

He knew the Collectors would target anything that mentioned Shepherd. Thought that was clear in the cutscene after Horizon. Plus remember Liara saved your body from the Shadowbroker because he was going to give you to the Collectors. So it was plain obvious that he baited them there by tell them about you, than sent you there to stop them right after. The Illusive man played his cards right and was able to get you more data on them. Plus remember, the lost of those lives were a needed sacrifice to prevent more Human colonies from vanishing. 

Modifié par DarthSliver, 26 janvier 2011 - 06:55 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Bugs don't need to report back constantly, though: they aren't often beacons (which are relatively easy to spot), but more often interval-update transmitters. There's nothing 'mere' about it, because there's just as much effort in disguising the broadcasts so they won't be noticed as there is effort to look for them. If counter-intelligence were a matter of 'merely', the the intelligence field wouldn't work as well as it does.

Moreover, it's not wise to fixate on the idea of bugs on the Normandy being the only possible source of an intelligence link.

The funny thing about real time transmissions is that there has to be meaningful compression available with no loss to allow them to be intermittant. It is true that periodic short bursts are the most likely mode, but they still happen. Most counter-intelligence fails simply because of not knowing where to look, and there being a lot of data to sift through. Deep space/remote system situations like the Normandy was in are really rather 'quiet' without a lot of extraneous data to distract from the Normandy's presence.

It is true it is not neccessarily the source of the leak (at the very least the writers might simply not have thought about it), but it is an obvious probable source.

This is also an analogy of the difference of being cautious and being pre-aware, which is the far more relevant aspect. TIM doesn't need to know what exactly the trap is to be aware that the set up is a trap.

Yes, Shepard did need to board the Collector vessel, to get EDI connected within the Collector computer network. Same reason why you need to go back to the console after the platform fight.

EDI didn't come along with Shepard, and at no point did Shepard actually plug his suit directly into the vessel. EDI's observations were all made remotely. Noting some readings on a console isn't normally the type of thing that would let them know about an IFF. I suppose there could be a separate 'IFF activation' swtich, but it is the type of system that is normally always on.

This isn't actually as uncommon as you imply. Strongholds that can't be defended are evacuated, and if they can not be destroyed in time they are abandoned.

Yes, but are almost always scuttled in some way on the way out. There is nothing to indicate a retreat under fire or any sort of time pressure. There is also the possibility that they had to retreat because of the ship itself.... as in the battle somehow triggering a self destruct sequence.

Regardless, there is every reason to suspect a trap and/or boobytraps, and none to simply assume no such measures are in place.

Contradictory knowledge assumption: TIM knows (or has reason to believe) that the Collectors haven't abandoned the Cruiser. In which case, yes, they would be in a position to watch and look to for differences between caution and prior knowledge... as well as the possibility of other sources of information leaking.

Again, since noone has actually boarded it, just because it is sitting appearantly dead in space there is no reason to assume it is abandoned. Booby traps can include bots, husks, suicide teams left behind not expecting to survive, etc, etc, etc. War hero Shepard successfully defended Elysium essentially single handedly (and when you consider how little the squad helps as well as it being only a 3 person squad), defeated Saren and the Geth invasion of the Citadel essentially single handedly.

He should know better than to assume the ship abandoned, and the collectors shouldn't react strangely if Shepard is cautious.

Moiaussi, not to put too fine a point on it but you're repeatedly demonstrated the difference where common sense fails in regards to particularly uncommon situations.

But we aren't talking about the reality that from time to time common sense gets tossed out the window. We are talking about TIM expecting the Collecters to assume that it would get tossed out the window this time.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

You know that my love is reserved for Liara, Kelly and Morinth.

The Crime Lord, the Free Lover, and the Serial Killer.

Strong words from someone whose love is the Priiiize.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And that's just putting more people under indoctrination effect, and slowing down the search by bringing in people less familiar with the operation. Without more studies into the extents of indoctrination, there's a valid concern that those people switched out going to be permanently compromised regardless: in this case, you aren't minimizing casualties, you're expanding them.

If the point is that speed trumps lives to such a degree, that's still the point that will dominate other decisions.

Hello? Communications? Why would the teams not on site have to be kept out of the loop? As for risking more people, we know from Eden and Vermire that exposure seems cumulative. By rotating personel, you not only extend the effective duration of the research, you also prevent researchers from volunteering for husk duty (thus becoming complete liabilities rather than just losses), and you also get a better chance to study the effects.

Aren't you the one usually backing Cerberus' methods? Here is a chance to learn more about indoctrination as part of an arguably actually useful study of the reaper hull, and you seem to be balking at suggestions of carrying out the research to maximum effectiveness.

They weren't replaced: how does this demonstrate they weren't aware or weren't fore-warned about the danger of the situation?

Their lack of sufficient awareness to pull themselves out of the situation. Even if they had shot themselves it would have been a better option than them ending up husks. Ideally they should have been taken off the project, and their behavior studied to help learn counters (if any) to the process. Cerberus at this stage can regrow someone from a corpse, with their memories and personality perfectly intact. The process might not be anywhere near as expensive the second time around, esp if they only need to revert a person back to an unindoctrinated state.

That might not seem valuable for saving researchers, but could be invaluable for saving key personel.

Poor analogy.

Far more accurate analogy is that my Shepard (Ruthless) continues with the fight and the mission even when teammates are killed and wounded by the enemies.

How does that analogy relate in any way to the concept of taking precautions, or not?

When common sense interferes with higher priorities, it isn't good sense. It's just common.

What higher priorities? You are ignoring an invaluable chance to learn more about indoctrination as well as to extend the duration of imporatant research, and near as I can tell your objection seems to be that if Cerberus personel might be saved inadvertantly in the process, it is obviously a waste of resources.

Care to try that one again?

[Asheer_Khan]

In Exile wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

It's a relative cost thing, though. With the stakes being so high with the Collectors, people might be more tolerant of the ends justifying the means versus other more explicitly human supremacist moves.

Was Horizon that populated though? I didn't think it was a colony with 100,000+ people.

According to datapad showed in Aria related short comic Horizon consisted about 960 000 colonists and was most higher populated human colony in Terminus.

However because of engine limitation we saw only fraction of true population.

[STG]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
According to datapad showed in Aria related short comic Horizon consisted about 960 000 colonists and was most higher populated human colony in Terminus.

However because of engine limitation we saw only fraction of true population.

Damn! In game it looks like it has a population of 100.