965 réponses à ce sujet

[Bailyn242]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Ozzy57 wrote...

I say he's evil....he just wants humans to dominate at all cost, resulting in deaths of humans and has no concern for other races/species in the ME universe

Indeed.

In Mass Effect 2 he seems okay, but if you look at all the side projects they had in Mass Effect 1 and read the books 'Ascension' and 'Revelation' then you can see that he is a pretty bad man overall.

It goes much beyond "We only want humanity to succeed" like he claims. He is willing to torture, murder, commit genocide and many other things in order to achieve this goal, and this is even against other humans.

Yeah, it's actually funny how in ME2 "he seems OK" as it is during ME2 that he commits his biggest "atrocity" to date - lures the Collectors to Horizon, resulting in hundreds of thousands of human deaths.

Except he didn't really lure the collectors to Horizon at all since they had already targeted it.

Edit:

Moiaussi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

F) They're a result of getting hit with some kind of Reaper-y weapon in Evolution.

Or

G) We only ever see him as a hologram so all parts of his appearance are artificial. TIM could really look like an ewok for all we know.

Except anyone who has read the books would know that isn't the case.

Of course they had already targeted Horizon. They had targeted EVERY human settlement including Earth.

[shatteredstar56]

DarthSliver wrote...

He knew the Collectors would target anything that mentioned Shepherd. Thought that was clear in the cutscene after Horizon. Plus remember Liara saved your body from the Shadowbroker because he was going to give you to the Collectors. So it was plain obvious that he baited them there by tell them about you, than sent you there to stop them right after. The Illusive man played his cards right and was able to get you more data on them. Plus remember, the lost of those lives were a needed sacrifice to prevent more Human colonies from vanishing. 

He used Shepard, and many other people, as bait to try and draw the Collectors out.  He wanted to take the fight to them, but he also had the agenda to bring humanity to the top of the galaxy. The first I might forgive,  but the second is wrong.  Technology was gained in the process, and it might have saved some lives, but he didn't care about Shepard,  he had his two agendas, and Shepard was the right person to call.
Kind of like when you want rats exterminated from your house, and at the same time you want to make your house the best on the lot. You'll hire an exterminator that doubles as a contractor.

[Zulu_DFA]

STG wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
According to datapad showed in Aria related short comic Horizon consisted about 960 000 colonists and was most higher populated human colony in Terminus.

However because of engine limitation we saw only fraction of true population.

Damn! In game it looks like it has a population of 100.

The game itself describes Horizon as a colony of  > 600,000, founded  in 2170s by people who wanted to get away from the Systems Alliance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:03 .

[Asheer_Khan]

STG wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
According to datapad showed in Aria related short comic Horizon consisted about 960 000 colonists and was most higher populated human colony in Terminus.

However because of engine limitation we saw only fraction of true population.

Damn! In game it looks like it has a population of 100.

This is one of the "hindrances" of ME 2 graphic engine... on the other hand can you imagine Citadel wards actually filled with thousand of people? (as should be according to hints game gives).

Playing in such crowd would be pure nightmare... unless they will create ridiculous huge map where reaching from one end of wards to another end would take about 30 minutes... but i doubt that many people would "cheer" from joy seeing such thing.

[STG]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
This is one of the "hindrances" of ME 2 graphic engine... on the other hand can you imagine Citadel wards actually filled with thousand of people? (as should be according to hints game gives).

Well you can look out of the windows and see other wards, huge buildings going into the distance and lines of "cars" flying around. It deffinitely looks like a large place. Horizon looks like a small farming village.

[Asheer_Khan]

uk.media.comics.ign.com/media/056/056597/img_7844423.html

^ Here is that certain part and yes i have mistaken (i saw that comic half year ago) couts of colonists from Horizon with Freedoms Progress count.

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

STG wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
According to datapad showed in Aria related short comic Horizon consisted about 960 000 colonists and was most higher populated human colony in Terminus.

However because of engine limitation we saw only fraction of true population.

Damn! In game it looks like it has a population of 100.

The game itself describes Horizon as a colony of  > 600,000, founded  in 2170s by people who wanted to get away from the Systems Alliance.

Actually Aria's Datapad on page 8 of the Incursion Mini Comic was 643,315 humans on Horizon. That would put TIM's body count at 2-300K dead from Horizon alone.

Back to the Derelict Reaper and Dean's points about how they knew about indoctrination since I just replayed that mission last night. At no point in any of those logs do they specifically address indoctrination (as in "Hey we were warned about this"). There is no evidence that TIM informed them. They talk about checking the Reaper to see if it was inert but they go no further than that. If TIM had informed the whole team or even a significant number of the team leads someone would have noticed and pulled the teams off the Reaper. Since they didn't and there was demonstrable evidence that the indoctrination progressed at different rates in people it is clear that he left the bulk of that team in the dark as to the nature of the threat. 

Again, incompetent leadership equals ****** poor leadership resulting in, what else, huskification of the team.

Failed again TIM.

[Fromyou]

Well he probably would say for Horizon is that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

You know that my love is reserved for Liara, Kelly and Morinth.

The Crime Lord, the Free Lover, and the Serial Killer.

Strong words from someone whose love is the Priiiize.

When your worst flaw is cheezy romance lines, you've officially entered the good life.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

You know that my love is reserved for Liara, Kelly and Morinth.

The Crime Lord, the Free Lover, and the Serial Killer.

Strong words from someone whose love is the Priiiize.

When your worst flaw is cheezy romance lines, you've officially entered the good life.

Generally, one hopes that they'd have good qualities as well...

[Zulu_DFA]

Fromyou wrote...

Well he probably would say for Horizon is that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette

I repeat, TIM did it deliberately for the reasons more evil from a liberal PoV than anything. He could just as easily lure the Collectors to a colony of 5,000 people with the same "Cmdr. Shepard will be there at high noon this Friday" tip-off. Lower population would produce even clearer results for testing his hypothesis (that the Collectors have a hard-on for Shepard specifically). Yet he made sure that the Collectors don't miss Horizon before their campaign of abductions is  terminated.

The fact that the haters have overlooked this argument and instead focus on Cerberus "ineptitude" (which is mostly just sloppy writing on BioWare's part) is totally discrediting of their whole case.

[Stupidus]

Fromyou wrote...

Well he probably would say for Horizon is that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette

That's what Pel said in Ascension and look at where that got him

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

You know that my love is reserved for Liara, Kelly and Morinth.

The Crime Lord, the Free Lover, and the Serial Killer.

Strong words from someone whose love is the Priiiize.

When your worst flaw is cheezy romance lines, you've officially entered the good life.

Generally, one hopes that they'd have good qualities as well...

Stability, a firm moral standing, common sense, and a decided lack of criminality, crazy, and overall permiscuity are very good.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fromyou wrote...

Well he probably would say for Horizon is that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette

I repeat, TIM did it deliberately for the reasons more evil from a liberal PoV than anything. He could just as easily lure the Collectors to a colony of 5,000 people with the same "Cmdr. Shepard will be there at high noon this Friday" tip-off. Lower population would produce even clearer results for testing his hypothesis (that the Collectors have a hard-on for Shepard specifically). Yet he made sure that the Collectors don't miss Horizon before their campaign of abductions is  terminated.

The fact that the haters have overlooked this argument and instead focus on Cerberus "ineptitude" (which is mostly just sloppy writing on BioWare's part) is totally discrediting of their whole case.

Actually, a higher population has a point: a public/political basis for the Alliance to invest such support in an outreach, as well as to keep the Collectors busy long enough for Shepard to show up.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've seen that brought up before, and generally speaking one of the apologists shoots it down by saying it was a necessary evil or something.

You know you love me anyway for it, Xil.

You know that my love is reserved for Liara, Kelly and Morinth.

The Crime Lord, the Free Lover, and the Serial Killer.

Strong words from someone whose love is the Priiiize.

When your worst flaw is cheezy romance lines, you've officially entered the good life.

Generally, one hopes that they'd have good qualities as well...

Stability, a firm moral standing, common sense, and a decided lack of criminality, crazy, and overall permiscuity are very good.

All of which Liara, at least, has in equal amounts to Jacob (Shadow Broker is no more criminal than Cerberus, and probably less). As for "permiscuity," does it really matter if Kelly won't cheat on you in the relationship itself (and there's no indication of such as it is)?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:26 .

[DarthSliver]

shatteredstar56 wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

He knew the Collectors would target anything that mentioned Shepherd. Thought that was clear in the cutscene after Horizon. Plus remember Liara saved your body from the Shadowbroker because he was going to give you to the Collectors. So it was plain obvious that he baited them there by tell them about you, than sent you there to stop them right after. The Illusive man played his cards right and was able to get you more data on them. Plus remember, the lost of those lives were a needed sacrifice to prevent more Human colonies from vanishing. 

He used Shepard, and many other people, as bait to try and draw the Collectors out.  He wanted to take the fight to them, but he also had the agenda to bring humanity to the top of the galaxy. The first I might forgive,  but the second is wrong.  Technology was gained in the process, and it might have saved some lives, but he didn't care about Shepard,  he had his two agendas, and Shepard was the right person to call.
Kind of like when you want rats exterminated from your house, and at the same time you want to make your house the best on the lot. You'll hire an exterminator that doubles as a contractor.

Yes but he used Shepherd because he knew they were after his body. Collectors know that the biggest threat to the Reaper plan was him and Humanity. Unlike the other races Humanity seems to see the bigger picture and the Alien races seem narrow minded. 

It sorta supports TIM humanity only cause because humanity seems to be the only race in the game that isnt ignorant to things. TIM's methods are somewhat evil, but they are to protect the overall Human race. Aliens continue to show a blind eye to the real threat. Once Shepherd was out of the picture, the council quickly dismissed the Reaper threat just as quick as it hit them in the face.

And this brings us to the Mass Effect 3 trailer, with Earth being attacked by the Reapers. I am sure TIMs goal is just the same as the Alliance when it comes to saving Earth, just he goes about it more aggressively. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fromyou wrote...

Well he probably would say for Horizon is that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette

I repeat, TIM did it deliberately for the reasons more evil from a liberal PoV than anything. He could just as easily lure the Collectors to a colony of 5,000 people with the same "Cmdr. Shepard will be there at high noon this Friday" tip-off. Lower population would produce even clearer results for testing his hypothesis (that the Collectors have a hard-on for Shepard specifically). Yet he made sure that the Collectors don't miss Horizon before their campaign of abductions is  terminated.

The fact that the haters have overlooked this argument and instead focus on Cerberus "ineptitude" (which is mostly just sloppy writing on BioWare's part) is totally discrediting of their whole case.

Actually, a higher population has a point: a public/political basis for the Alliance to invest such support in an outreach, as well as to keep the Collectors busy long enough for Shepard to show up.

You are not a hater, no wonder you are reasonable.

I agree to an extent with the number one point that, the target should have been fat enough to give the Alliance a reason to get interested... If it were just a random anybody in the Alliance. But I think Anderson would have dispatched the mission anyway, using his Citadel pull if necessary, as soon as he believed the information on Shepard working with Cerberus to abduct the colonists was authentic. TIM knew it, and also wanted to get Anderson's people (including the VS) slaughtered instead of just random Alliance people.

As for the second point, I can't see the reason why Shepard could be late for the show, since TIM had set the timing himself.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:47 .

[SS Jinn]

i wouldnt say TIM is "Evil" .. hmmm id say hes more of a "survival of the fittest / the many outweigh the few" kind of guy ... though many actions are debatable and ethically/morally questionable... i think hes a manipulative D&^% for sure, but not evil ))

[kidbd15]

TIM is not evil... he just doesn't have any ethics

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

All of which Liara, at least, has in equal amounts to Jacob (Shadow Broker is no more criminal than Cerberus, and probably less). As for "permiscuity," does it really matter if Kelly won't cheat on you in the relationship itself (and there's no indication of such as it is)?

Cerberus? Sure. Jacob's acts? Certainly not. Liara's been accruing respsonsibility for far more... questionable acts even before she took over the largest extortion/espionage ring in the galaxy.

Was actually referring to Morinth again with permiscuity.

[SS Jinn]

kidbd15 wrote...

TIM is not evil... he just doesn't have any ethics

+1  

[amillian]

Its a classic question of do the ends justify the means. Some say they never do. They are lying to themselves. For example their is a different standard as to what is acceptible to get some popcorn as their is to defending your country.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

As for the second point, I can't see the reason why Shepard could be late for the show, since TIM had set the timing himself.

TIM didn't set the timing outside a general time frame, TIM just knew where to look for the first sign of any trouble.

Shepard had to get there from wherever Shepard happened to be at the time, and had the colony been small enough (a sub-5000 colony, for example), the Collectors may well have been done by the time he showed up. Shepard has to transit, arrive, and deploy all in the time before the Collectors finish.

[Bailyn242]

OK, so you think TIM was justified in setting up Horizon to take the next Collector Raid. Sure, I could see that working until he does everything he can to keep the Alliance in the dark. At that point he loses ANY justification for his actions to that point. Every person lost after Horizon and everyone lost there is a murder case against him. If he was intending on drawing the Collectors into a position to expose their involvement and stop their raids TIM failed. Abject failure. If that was his goal then he should have allowed Shepard to contact Hackett to get reinforcements who would follow up once Shep hit dirtside.



Once Shepard is engaging the Collectors on the ground a few frigates could have kept the Collector Ship from bugging out. Unfortunately the Alliance was out of position, why you ask? Because TIM refuses to aid the rest of the Galaxy. He won't even help humanity. How else can you present this? They guy is either a loon (AKA inept) or a megalomaniac with control issues and no moral fibre.



There is no excuse for failure on such a scale and had one of his own teams failed that badly the team would have been removed with prejudice.