965 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

As for the second point, I can't see the reason why Shepard could be late for the show, since TIM had set the timing himself.

TIM didn't set the timing outside a general time frame, TIM just knew where to look for the first sign of any trouble.

Shepard had to get there from wherever Shepard happened to be at the time, and had the colony been small enough (a sub-5000 colony, for example), the Collectors may well have been done by the time he showed up. Shepard has to transit, arrive, and deploy all in the time before the Collectors finish.

TIM set the exact timing.

He conveyed the approximate timeframe only to Andeson well beforehand to have him send the defense grid mission. If he thought the Collectors could be interested in the VS, he would have assumed that they could strike sooner than Shepard was ready, and would have even possibly called off the operation. But that was not the case. Indeed, why would the Collectors be interested in a placeholder NPC?

As soon as Mordin invented his countemeasures (which TIM apparently learned ahead of Shepard), he ordered Horizon's communications sabotaged and released his tip to the Collectors (via a known Shadow Broker's mole in Cerberus, I suppose).

I'm really curious about one thing: were the saboteurs warned to hide very well after the comms went down, or they were deemed expendable too?

Imperium Alpha wrote...

For me, Illusive Man and Cerberus are not really "evil"  in the same
term we could consider the Reapers. Nor it means they are "good"
characters. I like to consider Cerberus and The Illusive Man as Neutral
Evil alignment.

Neutral Evil alignment description (from Dungeons & Dragons)

Neutral Evil is called the "Malefactor" alignment. Characters of this alignment are typically selfish and have no qualms about turning on their allies-of-the-moment. They have no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit to it. They abide by laws for only as long as it is convenient for them. A villain of this alignment can be more dangerous than either Lawful or Chaotic Evil characters, since he is neither bound by any sort of honor or tradition nor disorganized and pointlessly violent.

How does the "Neutral-Neutral" alignment look?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 janvier 2011 - 02:14 .

[Moiaussi]

amillian wrote...

Its a classic question of do the ends justify the means. Some say they never do. They are lying to themselves. For example their is a different standard as to what is acceptible to get some popcorn as their is to defending your country.

Of course the end can justify the means. That does not mean the end always justifies the means.

Prove the means were justified in this case rather than hide behind a mantra.

[Yeti13]

It all comes down to what the ends are and what the means are. Is torture okay if will perhaps perfect thousands? Would you let all America get wiped out if meant the that the rest of humanity was saved? Is it worth risking innocents to stop villains?



The good thing about ME is the decisions some are BLACK/WHITE but most of the time in real life it's Gray. A good person can do evil things and a evil person can do nice things. Free will allows us these things and its the rest of the world decides if we used it well

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I'm really curious about one thing: were the saboteurs warned to hide very well after the comms went down, or they were deemed expendable too?

He could jam the Collector's signal from space without the collectors knowing he was doing so. Why would he even have to have agents on Horizon to cut them off?

How does the "Neutral-Neutral" alignment look?

They keep hedging on 'true neutral' but the current definition is either something sufficiently low order that alignment doesn't really apply (such as an animal, running solely on instinct with no conscious concept of morality), or someone who actively tries to stay balanced between alignments.

My personal definiton is someone who is just naturally balanced between alignments. Active balancing or commitment is arguably following a code of conduct, or 'lawful,' as opposed to keeping ones word on some matters, but others not so much, and doing so simply by nature rather than consciously following a path or code.

[Moiaussi]

Yeti13 wrote...

It all comes down to what the ends are and what the means are. Is torture okay if will perhaps perfect thousands? Would you let all America get wiped out if meant the that the rest of humanity was saved? Is it worth risking innocents to stop villains?

An even better example is the above if it merely 'might' save the rest of humanity and the advocate was not merely refusing to entertain other options, but withholding proof of the threat's existance so that noone else could look for other options either, even if the plan failed.

[Yeti13]

or letting all of humanity die to save the rest of Galaxy the real ultimate sacrifice!

[Inverness Moon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah? So how did he know when the Collectors would arrive on Horizon?

He didn't, he just prepared and waited. The collectors would have come to Horizon anyways whether TIM had prepared or not, that is what we know. That is why trying to blame Horizon on TIM is foolish, when in fact its because of him and Shepard that it wasn't a complete success for the collectors.

Moiaussi wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Except anyone who has read the books would know that isn't the case.

We know he really does have glowing eyes from the books?

Maybe you should reread your post, but what we know is that TIM isn't a hologram, AI, or anything silly like that.

[Moiaussi]

Inverness Moon wrote...

He didn't, he just prepared and waited. The collectors would have come to Horizon anyways whether TIM had prepared or not, that is what we know. That is why trying to blame Horizon on TIM is foolish, when in fact its because of him and Shepard that it wasn't a complete success for the collectors.

Really.. so if Shepard had arrived after they had done their usual mop up and there was no evidence that they had been there at all, or that it wasn't a Cerberus trick?

Or arrived too soon, and found nothing but an unruly bunch of colonists upset at his being there and wondering what all the fuss was about, and having to wait... how long, exactly?

Think about it.

Maybe you should reread your post, but what we know is that TIM isn't a hologram, AI, or anything silly like that.

Maybe you should re-read my post. The suggestion was that TIM might be something other than strictly human because he has glowing eyes. TIM might be there in person in various scenes in the books, but every time Shepard meets him in game it is as a hologram... unless you are suggesting that TIM was actually tagging along on the Normandy....

As such, the appearance we see in game doesn't have to relate to TIM's actual appearance at all. Doesn't mean it doesn't, just that we are just seeing an image.

[Zulu_DFA]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah? So how did he know when the Collectors would arrive on Horizon?

He didn't, he just prepared and waited.

If it happened like you suggest, he'd have learned about the attack when it was already over, just like in every other case. But hell, he even admits his role himself to Shepard at the debriefing after the mission. "Lure them in" is his exact wording.

Inverness Moon wrote...

The collectors would have come to Horizon anyways whether TIM had prepared or not, that is what we know. That is why trying to blame Horizon on TIM is foolish, when in fact its because of him and Shepard that it wasn't a complete success for the collectors.

If there are textbooks for black ops specialists, this kind of stuff is dealt with in "Introduction": stage a false flag attack on an expendable target, then ride in heroically, save the day, and don't forget to have chocolate and bubble gum for kids.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 janvier 2011 - 04:57 .

[Shockwave81]

I've been wondering, and I'm not sure if it's been touched on before, but what if Cerberus (see also: TIM) aided the Collectors in finding the SR1 at the beginning of ME2?



Cerberus could have had at least one operative on the Normandy (can't remember if this was alluded to anywhere), and planting a homing device somewhere on the ship wouldn't be too hard if that was the case.



Now I know that sounds crazy, but my theory continues...



Cerberus could also have obtained the technology for the Lazarus project from the Collectors in exchange for setting Shepard up.



My theory gets even wilder...



What if Dr. Chakwas was the Cerberus operative? It would explain her willingness to come along for the ride on the SR2, and aside from Joker, she's the only person that has served on both ships. A great observer.



As a side note, I find it interesting that you can also rearrange the letters in Dr Chakwas' name to get 'Hacksaw' but that's just a little fun.



I believe the Liara comics turn this little theory on its head, but I just had to get it out of mine.



Feel free to poke holes wherever!!

[Zulu_DFA]

Shockwave81 wrote...

I've been wondering, and I'm not sure if it's been touched on before, but what if Cerberus (see also: TIM) aided the Collectors in finding the SR1 at the beginning of ME2?

Cerberus could have had at least one operative on the Normandy (can't remember if this was alluded to anywhere), and planting a homing device somewhere on the ship wouldn't be too hard if that was the case.

Motive?

Shockwave81 wrote...

Cerberus could also have obtained the technology for the Lazarus project from the Collectors in exchange for setting Shepard up.

This is practically clear as day. Wilson was the lead scientist on the Lazarus Project, and he was working for the Shadow Broker. And the Shadow Broker was to the Colectors what Cerbersu is to the Alliance - eyes, ears and the right hand. So where do you think Wilson's insights into medicine originated?

Except since Wilson and Shadow Broker were unaware that TIM was aware of their relationship, Cerberus enjoyed receiving Collector tech for free.

Shockwave81 wrote...

What if Dr. Chakwas was the Cerberus operative? It would explain her willingness to come along for the ride on the SR2, and aside from Joker, she's the only person that has served on both ships. A great observer.

In ME2, you are a Cerberus operative, like it or not. And in outfits like Cerberus it's everyone's duty to spy and snitch on each other. So what's your problem? Ah, yeah, I see: you don't like it...

Shockwave81 wrote...

I believe the Liara comics turn this little theory on its head, but I just had to get it out of mine.

Liara comics suggest that Liara may be a Cerberus operative too.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:57 .

[Shockwave81]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Motive?

The Collectors obviously fascinated TIM, and he suspected that they were working with the Reapers.  What better gift for the Reapers than to hand Shepard to them - a little bit of bait.  

Shepard gets killed in the process - again all part of the plan.  Once resurrected, Shepard could then be used as a (very tenacious) tool for TIM to chase down his real prey. Heavy risk... 

The beautiful part is that TIM didn't even have to get his hands dirty - it was all taken care of by The Shadow Broker. Webs within webs etc. Heck, it could have been a Shadow Broker agent that bugged the SR1. 

I'm a little bit uncertain as to where I'm going with that - but I'm tired so please forgive me.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
In ME2, you are a Cerberus operative, like it or not. And in outfits like Cerberus it's everyone's duty to spy and snitch on each other. So what's your problem? Ah, yeah, I see: you don't like it...

A little confused here, don't have a problem and not sure why I wouldn't like it? It would be a cliché for Dr Chakwas to be the insider in some ways - but she's almost too nice. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

EDI didn't come along with Shepard, and at no point did Shepard actually plug his suit directly into the vessel. EDI's observations were all made remotely. Noting some readings on a console isn't normally the type of thing that would let them know about an IFF. I suppose there could be a separate 'IFF activation' swtich, but it is the type of system that is normally always on.

Moiaussi, Shepard's entire role in the mission was to establish an uplink on the Collector Vessel between their system and EDI.

Yes, but are almost always scuttled in some way on the way out.

Nope.

There is nothing to indicate a retreat under fire or any sort of time pressure. There is also the possibility that they had to retreat because of the ship itself....

Uh, yeah. There is: the Turian distress signal message, which would both give (a) the indication of duress under fire, and ( a strict time limit before overwhelming Turian/other forces (like Cerberus) would arrive to 'assist.'


As ham-handled by the writers as it was, this was supposed to be part of the 'haunting' atmosphere of the ship.

as in the battle somehow triggering a self destruct sequence.

Self-destruct sequences are a huge literary idiocy in regards to ships.

Regardless, there is every reason to suspect a trap and/or boobytraps, and none to simply assume no such measures are in place.

Then go in suspicious. You don't need TIM to do that.

He should know better than to assume the ship abandoned, and the collectors shouldn't react strangely if Shepard is cautious.

The difference between caution and foreknowledge, and possible intelligence links, is relevant to the decision

But we aren't talking about the reality that from time to time common sense gets tossed out the window. We are talking about TIM expecting the Collecters to assume that it would get tossed out the window this time.

Not really. That's more a reflection of the writers overall delivery on the situation than a flaw of TIM: TIM's concerns about intelligence leaking is far more defensible than, say, the Normandy not even looking around the Collector Cruiser to check the damage, or the Collectors actually letting the Normandy access useful data when they could have replaced their systems with trash data, or Shepard's own lack of caution/suspicion without explicit warning.

Your issue really isn't with TIM, but with the overall quality by the writers for the entire mission.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...


Hello? Communications? Why would the teams not on site have to be kept out of the loop? As for risking more people, we know from Eden and Vermire that exposure seems cumulative. By rotating personel, you not only extend the effective duration of the research, you also prevent researchers from volunteering for husk duty (thus becoming complete liabilities rather than just losses), and you also get a better chance to study the effects.

Aren't you the one usually backing Cerberus' methods? Here is a chance to learn more about indoctrination as part of an arguably actually useful study of the reaper hull, and you seem to be balking at suggestions of carrying out the research to maximum effectiveness.

Because researching about indoctrination is far secondary to the actual priority of getting an IFF to beat the Collectors, and as quickly as possible.

The Reaper wasn't going anywhere (until Shepard showed up). You can come back to make a dedicated study later.

Their lack of sufficient awareness to pull themselves out of the situation.

Why would they have, if they were prepared to accept it going in, and then wouldn't want to once they started being affected? There are a lot of people in this world who will do something they know is liable to get them and those around them killed, and then keep going forward as it happens.

This isn't some hypothetical state that only applies to fanatics: the Civil War and WW1 both demonstrated how common this trait can be.

Even if they had shot themselves it would have been a better option than them ending up husks.

Better on what grounds? Husks overwhelming the researchers wasn't what brought an end to the project, while shooting themselves at the first signs would have cut their project short if it hadn't succeded yet.

Ideally they should have been taken off the project, and their behavior studied to help learn counters (if any) to the process. Cerberus at this stage can regrow someone from a corpse, with their memories and personality perfectly intact. The process might not be anywhere near as expensive the second time around, esp if they only need to revert a person back to an unindoctrinated state.

Or it still might be horrendously expensive and unfeasible on any sort of scale.

'Ideally' would only apply if (a) taking people off the project didn't slow down the project, the speed of success of which could affect the Collector Conflict ( there's relevant reasons why this research can't be pursued later, at a point at which it wouldn't conflict with anti-Collector efforts. Or, more specifically, 'ideally' would depend on your personal ideals, and priorities.

Indoctrination research isn't the overwhelming priority to Cerberus at this point, and it isn't a limited opportunity as long as this Reaper exists.

How does that analogy relate in any way to the concept of taking precautions, or not?

Multiple ways. Do you want me to sound like a paternalistic a-hat in spelling it out for you, though?

When common sense interferes with higher priorities, it isn't good sense. It's just common.

What higher priorities?

This little enigmatic genocidal race called the Collectors working for the Reapers.

Care to try that one again?

Not especially after this post: you've returned to your particular habits  which generally marks the end of any useful debate between us.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 janvier 2011 - 09:52 .

[Thain Krios]

He is not evil.Just seeking the good of humanity is not quite a good way.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi, Shepard's entire role in the mission was to establish an uplink on the Collector Vessel between their system and EDI.

Actually it was to find the location of the Collector homeworld from information on the Collector ship. EDI mining their databanks was a means to that end, but if they had found it in some other form, even an old fashioned printed chart, TIM wouldn't have objected.

Nope.

There you go again. This is 'pleasant discussion.' I think you are looking for 'contradition.' Easy mistake.  Second door on your left.

Seriously, you are claiming to have some sort of 'great book of rapidly abandoned fortifications and vessels?' If the US navy had to abandon one of its missile cruisers for some reason in hostile waters, you are telling me that they have no failsafe proceedure to scuttle the ship? Scuttling ships to avoid their capture is as old as ships themselves.

Uh, yeah. There is: the Turian distress signal message, which would both give (a) the indication of duress under fire, and ( a strict time limit before overwhelming Turian/other forces (like Cerberus) would arrive to 'assist.'

As ham-handled by the writers as it was, this was supposed to be part of the 'haunting' atmosphere of the ship.

Ah yes, the FAKE transmission. Not to mention that Turian patrols don't magically appear out of nowhere. What would Turian vessels be doing anywhere near the Terminus systems? And even if they were nearby, since when does any modern auto-destruct or similar failsafe require huge amouts of time to arm?

Regardless, it comes down to Shepard taking the risk that they didn't have time to activate or otherwise set up any such provisions, and doing so just because of some wild guess that none were activated rather than any real logic.

Self-destruct sequences are a huge literary idiocy in regards to ships.

So the US or Russian navies have no problems with the concept of nuclear weapons carried on their warships being captured. The ship's survival is more important, even if all crew have been safely evacuated. Pardon?

Then go in suspicious. You don't need TIM to do that.

And yet the fact that you might 'go in suspicious' is exactly the reasoning TIM uses not to tell you. Hence my pointing out it makes no sense.

The difference between caution and foreknowledge, and possible intelligence links, is relevant to the decision

 
TIM's arguement was caution was risky. Even though the communication was to Shepard personally, he made no suggestion of any leaks. What you are saying is that he was still lieing rather than explaining.

Not really. That's more a reflection of the writers overall delivery on the situation than a flaw of TIM: TIM's concerns about intelligence leaking is far more defensible than, say, the Normandy not even looking around the Collector Cruiser to check the damage, or the Collectors actually letting the Normandy access useful data when they could have replaced their systems with trash data, or Shepard's own lack of caution/suspicion without explicit warning.

Your issue really isn't with TIM, but with the overall quality by the writers for the entire mission.

Uh uh, you don't get to pull that one. If you get to pull that, then it is just as much the case that any implications that TIM and/or Cerberus are legitimate is a 'problem with the writing.' You can't simply turn around and say that doesn't count because it doesn't agree with you.

[Moiaussi]

Btw, Dean?



There is a nice (and definately not complete) list of notable scuttled ships here:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling



I realize it is just wikipedia, but if you want to dispute any of the examples, go ahead.

[General User]

Scuttling the Collector Cruiser is an iffy proposition. There could have been thousands of captive humans on that ship. And Cerberus had no way of knowing how many other cruisers the Collectors may have had.

Scuttling the ship would potentially be a decision with horrendous cost and very little payoff.

Modifié par General User, 27 janvier 2011 - 01:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Btw, Dean?

There is a nice (and definately not complete) list of notable scuttled ships here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling

I realize it is just wikipedia, but if you want to dispute any of the examples, go ahead.

There's also the minor difference that scuttling a blue water ship fills it with water and sinks it beyond easy reach... while scuttling a space ship in the same manner just fills it with space. Which you sort of already have to be able to travel through to get to the ship in the first place.

Scuttling a space ship of size is far more comparable to scuttling a house of size.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...



Actually it was to find the location of the Collector homeworld from information on the Collector ship. EDI mining their databanks was a means to that end, but if they had found it in some other form, even an old fashioned printed chart, TIM wouldn't have objected.

And to get EDI access to those banks, Shepard had to establish an uplink to the Collector Systems. For the same reasons that Shepard has to go back to ther Terminal for EDI to take control of them to get him back down.

There you go again. This is 'pleasant discussion.' I think you are looking for 'contradition.' Easy mistake.  Second door on your left.

No, it's a direct answer to a yes/no question you posed. If you pose an open-ended question, I'll give an open answer. If you pose a closed-ended question, I may give a closed answer.

Seriously, you are claiming to have some sort of 'great book of rapidly abandoned fortifications and vessels?' If the US navy had to abandon one of its missile cruisers for some reason in hostile waters, you are telling me that they have no failsafe proceedure to scuttle the ship? Scuttling ships to avoid their capture is as old as ships themselves.

The difference between scuttling a space ship and scuttling a water ship is... water.

Water does most the damage, and puts the ship beyond most recovery, which is the bigger point. Scuttling a space ship, if it can't be pushed into a gravity well of relevant sort, is more equivalent to scuttling a land building.

Ah yes, the FAKE transmission. Not to mention that Turian patrols don't magically appear out of nowhere. What would Turian vessels be doing anywhere near the Terminus systems? And even if they were nearby, since when does any modern auto-destruct or similar failsafe require huge amouts of time to arm?

Apparently the Turian ships outside the cruiser on the approach scene would beg to differ.

(And wasn't it you who pointed that there were actual Turian ships to me awhile ago?)

To answer your other questions: a Turian vessel would be near Terminus space for the same reason an Alliance vessel was in Batarian space in CDN, and why Chinese subs are in Japanese waters, and why the Russians do flights towards American/Canada airspace.

(IE, lots of reasons political.)

There is no such thing as a modern auto-destruct on a modern warship of comparable size. It's a really, really stupid sci-fi conceit: we don't build our weapons to blow up, because people tend to find ways to press the button.

So the US or Russian navies have no problems with the concept of nuclear weapons carried on their warships being captured. The ship's survival is more important, even if all crew have been safely evacuated. Pardon?

Pardon given.

 Besides the, ahem, minimal chances of a warship fit to carry weapons being overrun and 'captured', you don't need to self-destruct a ship to deny nuclear weapons to the enemy. Most ships of size don't even carry nuclear weapons in the first place, and it's far easier to dud the nuclear weapons themelves (as most modern US nuclear devices are rigged to render themselves inoperable very, very easily).

And yet the fact that you might 'go in suspicious' is exactly the reasoning TIM uses not to tell you. Hence my pointing out it makes no sense.

No, the reasoning TIM uses is that the Collectors could have been made aware of prior knowledge by any number of reasons. Some of which we've even agreed on.

There are differences between someone who's cautious in general and someone who actually knows they're walking into a trap.

TIM's arguement was caution was risky. Even though the communication was to Shepard personally, he made no suggestion of any leaks. What you are saying is that he was still lieing rather than explaining.

He did say any number of ways, and leaks certainly are possible ways.

Not really. That's more a reflection of the writers overall delivery on the situation than a flaw of TIM: TIM's concerns about intelligence leaking is far more defensible than, say, the Normandy not even looking around the Collector Cruiser to check the damage, or the Collectors actually letting the Normandy access useful data when they could have replaced their systems with trash data, or Shepard's own lack of caution/suspicion without explicit warning.

Your issue really isn't with TIM, but with the overall quality by the writers for the entire mission.

Uh uh, you don't get to pull that one. If you get to pull that, then it is just as much the case that any implications that TIM and/or Cerberus are legitimate is a 'problem with the writing.' You can't simply turn around and say that doesn't count because it doesn't agree with you.

But... it does agree with me.

TIM's actions towards the Collector Cruiser are in line and consistent with the behavior of every actor in the Collector Cruiser trap. To single away and malign TIM as exceptionally defunct and ignore everyone else is to ignore the overarching reasons for the problems in the first place: not that clever writering set out to depict TIM as an idiot, but that mediocre writing failed as a whole in the entire scenario.

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...
TIM might be there in person in various scenes in the books, but every time Shepard meets him in game it is as a hologram... unless you are suggesting that TIM was actually tagging along on the Normandy....

That's technically true, but you seem to have forgotten that in every single TIM briefing scene in the game, Shepard is the hologram and the POV is in TIM's office.  Hell, the very first scene in the game is TIM chatting with Miranda in that office.  He only appears as a hologram once: at the end, as Shep is about to light up the Collector Base.

So, you can argue that Shep can't truly know what TIM looks like, but you cannot argue this:

As such, the appearance we see in game doesn't have to relate to TIM's actual appearance at all. Doesn't mean it doesn't, just that we are just seeing an image.

Unless you want to apply "just seeing an image" to the entire game, of course. Or, you know, vision in general.

[Inverness Moon]

Moiaussi wrote...

Really.. so if Shepard had arrived after they had done their usual mop up and there was no evidence that they had been there at all, or that it wasn't a Cerberus trick?

Or arrived too soon, and found nothing but an unruly bunch of colonists upset at his being there and wondering what all the fuss was about, and having to wait... how long, exactly?

Think about it.

Think about what? You're not saying much. The attack on Horizon was going to happen sooner or later without Cerberus involvement. TIM just put them on his schedule and took advantage of that.

Moiaussi wrote...

Maybe you should re-read my post. The suggestion was that TIM might be something other than strictly human because he has glowing eyes. TIM might be there in person in various scenes in the books, but every time Shepard meets him in game it is as a hologram... unless you are suggesting that TIM was actually tagging along on the Normandy....

As such, the appearance we see in game doesn't have to relate to TIM's actual appearance at all. Doesn't mean it doesn't, just that we are just seeing an image.

The idea that his eyes might indicate him being something other than human is baseless conjecture. That is a very weak base for your argument.

So what are you trying to say? Are you suggesting TIM might be a hologram projected into the office, or that the office itself isn't real or what? Neither of those claims are supported by the games or books. It seems like you're coming up with weak arguments to support a weak claim.

[Freelancer rook]

No, the end justifies the means.

[Inverness Moon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If it happened like you suggest, he'd have learned about the attack when it was already over, just like in every other case. But hell, he even admits his role himself to Shepard at the debriefing after the mission. "Lure them in" is his exact wording.

I'm not arguing against that. What I am saying is that the collectors would have attacked Horizon eventually even if TIM had done nothing. TIM simply lured them in on his own time as part of a trap.

[Barquiel]

Freelancer rook wrote...

No, the end justifies the means.

always?

I think it depends upon what the end is, what means are available, and how likely of success the various means are.