965 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Freelancer rook wrote...

No, the end justifies the means.

Here's an end: end human suffering.  And here's a means to that end: kill everyone.  Can't say it wouldn't work: no more humans, no more human suffering.  So, it's justified, no?

[C9316]

So far he's only proven to be a massive douchebag.

[Lewie]

Freelancer rook wrote...

No, the end justifies the means.

Would that still stand if TIM stabbed you in the back because he would without a second thought. He is ambiguous, cold, domineering and conceited. I have tried to see it from his way but can't agree with him no matter what the outcome or 'bigger picture' may be which no doubt has TIM at the top.

[Zulu_DFA]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If it happened like you suggest, he'd have learned about the attack when it was already over, just like in every other case. But hell, he even admits his role himself to Shepard at the debriefing after the mission. "Lure them in" is his exact wording.

I'm not arguing against that. What I am saying is that the collectors would have attacked Horizon eventually even if TIM had done nothing. TIM simply lured them in on his own time as part of a trap.

Horizon may have not come under attack for another year or more. And since TIM was working towards thwarting the Collector activities altogether, and was expecting them to become "more cautions" immediately as a result of the Operation "High Noon", he could use a far less populated colony as target, if it was all the same to him. But apparently it wasn't all the same, and Horizon had to get hurt before the Collector abduction campaign abated.

This anti-Alliance mood of Horizon colonists is made into quite a big deal: it's in the Codex article, and it's in every other word of the single colonist NPC you meet on the colony.

And it's, by the way, during the Horizon mission briefing, that TIM mentions he will be able to "personally notify the Alliance", if he deems reinforcements are necessary to succeed against the Collectors.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because researching about indoctrination is far secondary to the actual priority of getting an IFF to beat the Collectors, and as quickly as possible.

The Reaper wasn't going anywhere (until Shepard showed up). You can come back to make a dedicated study later.

Objection: Facts not in evidence.

Where are you getting all this information on when Cerberus started the research? It could have been any time in the last 2 years, and where are you getting all this inside information as to the team's mission?

The Collectors hadn't done much yet, and had only showed up with a single, easily defeated cruiser. There wasn't even any actual link to the Reapers yet. They have been around, collecting, for a rather long time appearantly. , Indoctrination is a major weapon in the Reaper arsenal, and if the attacks were related to the Reapers, indoctrination might have explained how entire populations could be abducted.

If that had turned out to the the method instead of the seekers, a counter would have meant not needing Mordin (at least not immediately or for that).

They also didn't even know about the IFF until after boarding the collector ship. They might have been looking for information as to the collectors homeworld, but again, why? There was no link yet.

Why would they have, if they were prepared to accept it going in, and then wouldn't want to once they started being affected? There are a lot of people in this world who will do something they know is liable to get them and those around them killed, and then keep going forward as it happens.

This isn't some hypothetical state that only applies to fanatics: the Civil War and WW1 both demonstrated how common this trait can be.

Just try thinking this through. Indoctrination is more than mere intoxication. It is a coopting of your loyalties. Once coopted, they would not just become less efficient but actually start working against the team. At the very least, by sending false data, but it could be anything including sabotage or outright assassination.

I am pretty sure that there is no evidence of any civil war or WWI anyone being under the effects of alien mind control. You wouldn't happen to be wearing a tin foil hat as you type this, would you?

Better on what grounds? Husks overwhelming the researchers wasn't what brought an end to the project, while shooting themselves at the first signs would have cut their project short if it hadn't succeded yet.

1) Husks didn't need to have overwhelmed the researchers. Dead researchers are almost certainly less huskable. The project didn't succeed, so on what are you basing your conclusion? In fact, TIM simply tells Shepard he lost contact, doesn't he?

Or it still might be horrendously expensive and unfeasible on any sort of scale.

'Ideally' would only apply if (a) taking people off the project didn't slow down the project, the speed of success of which could affect the Collector Conflict ( there's relevant reasons why this research can't be pursued later, at a point at which it wouldn't conflict with anti-Collector efforts. Or, more specifically, 'ideally' would depend on your personal ideals, and priorities.

Indoctrination research isn't the overwhelming priority to Cerberus at this point, and it isn't a limited opportunity as long as this Reaper exists.

It might have. Shepard might also have come back as a homecidal maniac, yet just as competent and resourceful as before, had nothing more to do with Reapers, taken out the Lazarus base, commandeered the shuttle, then a ship, hunted down TIM and eliminated Cerberus entirely... then sided with the Reapers for kicks.

Cerberus has never shied away from SCIENCE! experiments before.

I am also not sure why you figure it is best to wait for the actual invasion to research indoctrination. isn't that contrary to the whole 'we need extraordinary measures NOW' mantra? Fine, they find the collector homeworld, and the ships and troops sent get indoctrinated and sent right back at us. Now what? Ooooh, plenty of research subjects. Too bad they are shooting at us and know more about us than we do about those who turned them.....

Multiple ways. Do you want me to sound like a paternalistic a-hat in spelling it out for you, though?

I would prefer you stop talking like a paternalistic a-hat trying to sell the emperor new clothes. If someone doesn't get your point, just explain it. If we are not as amazingly 'clever' as you, so be it.

This little enigmatic genocidal race called the Collectors working for the Reapers.

There was no evidence of a link yet, and again, if you found out that they were simply using indoctrination, and Shepard lands on Horizon only to be indoctrinated, what good have you done?

Not especially after this post: you've returned to your particular habits  which generally marks the end of any useful debate between us.

What, asking you to actually explain your case rather than declare it as self evident? You do make some good points, and we agree on some things, but that doesn't mean you get a free ride any more than I should.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Btw, Dean?

There is a nice (and definately not complete) list of notable scuttled ships here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling

I realize it is just wikipedia, but if you want to dispute any of the examples, go ahead.

There's also the minor difference that scuttling a blue water ship fills it with water and sinks it beyond easy reach... while scuttling a space ship in the same manner just fills it with space. Which you sort of already have to be able to travel through to get to the ship in the first place.

Scuttling a space ship of size is far more comparable to scuttling a house of size.

Well yes. Overload the diesel engine of a ship and it just stops. Overload the main reactor of a starship, and droping the sheilding over the reactor, and it is scuttled much more effectively.

[Moiaussi]

Inverness Moon wrote...

The idea that his eyes might indicate him being something other than human is baseless conjecture. So what are you trying to say? .

Umm.. that is all I was really trying to say.

That is a very weak base for your argument.

Not when that is the arguement....

Modifié par Moiaussi, 27 janvier 2011 - 05:57 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

The idea that his eyes might indicate him being something other than human is baseless conjecture. So what are you trying to say? .

Umm.. that is all I was really trying to say.

That is a very weak base for your argument.

Not when that is the arguement....

So, is TIM a... cool alien? Wow... Where's all the love for him then?

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...]And to get EDI access to those banks, Shepard had to establish an uplink to the Collector Systems. For the same reasons that Shepard has to go back to ther Terminal for EDI to take control of them to get him back down.

Again, that is a means, not the intended end. EDI getting an uplink is a means to find out the location of the collector base. If for whatever reason that failed, it wouldn't have precluded Shep looking around for the information the old fashioned way. He seemed to get information on his own without EDI just fine in ME1.

No, it's a direct answer to a yes/no question you posed. If you pose an open-ended question, I'll give an open answer. If you pose a closed-ended question, I may give a closed answer.

Actually I made a statement. You responded by simply contradicting it with no explaination. "Yes, but (they) are almost always scuttled in some way on the way out" isn't a question.

The difference between scuttling a space ship and scuttling a water ship is... water.

Water does most the damage, and puts the ship beyond most recovery, which is the bigger point. Scuttling a space ship, if it can't be pushed into a gravity well of relevant sort, is more equivalent to scuttling a land building.

As I said in the other post, there are different means of scuttling a starship. Overloading the engines is the most common. Sure it isn't always an option, but why assume in this case it wasn't?

Apparently the Turian ships outside the cruiser on the approach scene would beg to differ.

(And wasn't it you who pointed that there were actual Turian ships to me awhile ago?)

To answer your other questions: a Turian vessel would be near Terminus space for the same reason an Alliance vessel was in Batarian space in CDN, and why Chinese subs are in Japanese waters, and why the Russians do flights towards American/Canada airspace.

(IE, lots of reasons political.)

There is no such thing as a modern auto-destruct on a modern warship of comparable size. It's a really, really stupid sci-fi conceit: we don't build our weapons to blow up, because people tend to find ways to press the button.

I just re-watched it.  I don't see any turian hulls in the vicinity, nor are any mentioned.

It looks like there might be some sort of ship in the lower background, but it doesn't look Turian. TIM must have an observation ship in the area (which for all we know is a turian hull).

As for buttons tending to get used, the weapons systems are all controlled by 'buttons', including the nuclear weapons systems if present. I don't know of any 'accidental nuclear launches' from any such vessel. Do you?

Oh and as for 'stupid sci-fi conceit', you do realize this is 'sci-fi', don't you?

Pardon given.

 Besides the, ahem, minimal chances of a warship fit to carry weapons being overrun and 'captured', you don't need to self-destruct a ship to deny nuclear weapons to the enemy. Most ships of size don't even carry nuclear weapons in the first place, and it's far easier to dud the nuclear weapons themelves (as most modern US nuclear devices are rigged to render themselves inoperable very, very easily).

Dud'ing is much different than rendering them non-un-dudable. They can be rendered such that they won't blow themselves up, but rendering the 'weapons grade material' non-weapons grade is another matter.

The fact that it is unlikely that they would be in a situation where they might have to scuttle is a different matter. The closest has been submarines, mostly russian. Note that there have been a few nuclear submarines sunk. If they are sinking anyway, they are sort of self scuttling.....

No, the reasoning TIM uses is that the Collectors could have been made aware of prior knowledge by any number of reasons. Some of which we've even agreed on.

There are differences between someone who's cautious in general and someone who actually knows they're walking into a trap.

Not really. Any sane person should have assumed that might be a trap. Even TIM didn't know for certain what the collectors were up to.

But... it does agree with me.

TIM's actions towards the Collector Cruiser are in line and consistent with the behavior of every actor in the Collector Cruiser trap. To single away and malign TIM as exceptionally defunct and ignore everyone else is to ignore the overarching reasons for the problems in the first place: not that clever writering set out to depict TIM as an idiot, but that mediocre writing failed as a whole in the entire scenario.

But isn't the same true of TIM withholding information regarding Horizon, or pretty much everything else? The second prothean beacon, the reaper hull itself..... He would rather send a single frigate against a Collector 'homeworld' (that is what he says they are looking for, not merely a base, which even as a base it is hardly a given that a single frigate would be enough to take out).

If you want to fall back and claim 'bad writing', then it begs the question as to what you consider good writing, and thus valid evidence?

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So, is TIM a... cool alien? Wow... Where's all the love for him then?

Lol, my actual point was that the image shown to Shepard is always a hologram, so we shouldn't assume anything from it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi, our argument has gone on to multiple separate, self-contained branches, and for RL reasons I really shouldn't continue pursuing both.



If you'd like to continue one or the other, I'd be willing, or if you want to accept that we are at a 'going in circles' point, I'll accept that as well with no implication of concession on any side.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi, our argument has gone on to multiple separate, self-contained branches, and for RL reasons I really shouldn't continue pursuing both.

If you'd like to continue one or the other, I'd be willing, or if you want to accept that we are at a 'going in circles' point, I'll accept that as well with no implication of concession on any side.

Fair enough. I think the question of how the writing plays into all this is really a completely separate topic anyway. It might be worth discussing though.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So, is TIM a... cool alien? Wow... Where's all the love for him then?

Lol, my actual point was that the image shown to Shepard is always a hologram, so we shouldn't assume anything from it.

On here we tend to discuss things from the "third person omniscient" perspective, so I'm astonished you overlook the books, where people do meet TIM in person, and even the ME2 intro, where Miranda visits TIM in his office and the official screenshot of TIM's eyes is taken.

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...

Lol, my actual point was that the image shown to Shepard is always a hologram, so we shouldn't assume anything from it.

Your actual point fails though, because we, the players, are shown TIM directly and not from Shep's POV in all but one instance.  Again: look no further than the very first scene of the game. 

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

On here we tend to discuss things from the "third person omniscient" perspective, so I'm astonished you overlook the books, where people do meet TIM in person, and even the ME2 intro, where Miranda visits TIM in his office and the official screenshot of TIM's eyes is taken.

We don't 'see' TIM's eyes in the books. are they described as glowing there?

Miranda's visit at the start of ME2 could have been with a hologram in a holographic office, just as Shepard's 'visits' are.

That people do meet TIM is beside the point.

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Your actual point fails though, because we, the players, are shown TIM directly and not from Shep's POV in all but one instance.  Again: look no further than the very first scene of the game. 

We know that isn't simply a hologam projected to whereever Miranda is stationed, how?

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Your actual point fails though, because we, the players, are shown TIM directly and not from Shep's POV in all but one instance.  Again: look no further than the very first scene of the game. 

We know that isn't simply a hologam projected to whereever Miranda is stationed, how?

I thought of this, trust me, when the arguments were "Miranda knows where TIM is, let's go blow him away!". I had to concede that she was indeed physically present in the office (which didn't mean that she knew it's location even then).

Becasue she is not standing still. She is moving around, which would mean that she went off focus for TIM, which is not what subordinates are casual to do when talking to bosses.

Anyway, this idea, "TIM is a hologram" is next to retarded, since it wouldn't really change anything. There are the books that are quite clear that he is a real person, and the reader is even made privy of TIM's inner thoughts once in a while.

Going to additional lenghts to mystify Shepard specifically would be OOC for TIM, who treats everybody as expendable chess pieces. Shepard is an important one in his current game, but that's it.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 janvier 2011 - 09:30 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I thought of this, turst me, when the arguments were "Miranda knows where TIM is, let's go blow him away!". I had to concede that she was indeed physically present in the office (which didn't mean that she knew it's location even then).

Becasue she is not sadnting still. She is moving around, which would mean that she went off focus for TIM, which is not what subordinates are casual to do when talking to bosses.

Anyway, this idea, "TIM is a hologram" is next to retarded, since it wouldn't really change anything. There are the books that are quite clear that he is a real person, and the reader is even made privy of TIM's inner thoughts once in a while.

Going to additional lenghts to mystify Shepard specifically would be OOC for TIM, who treats everybody as expendable chess pieces. Shepard is an important one in his current game, but that's it.

When TIM talks to Shepard on the Normandy, he walks around too though, smokes his cigarette, etc. This is a future with working VI's. The image doesn't even have to be doing what its origniator is doing. TIM could be in the bath, or skdiving.... or skydiving while in the bath... in the middle of meetings for all we know.

And there is no reason that couldn't work in both directions. If TIM can move around without blurring, so can Miranda, Shepard, whoever.

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Your actual point fails though, because we, the players, are shown TIM directly and not from Shep's POV in all but one instance.  Again: look no further than the very first scene of the game. 

We know that isn't simply a hologam projected to whereever Miranda is stationed, how?

Because holograms have a distinctive, partially transparent look, and often include noise. TIM just looks like any other character that's physically present in a scene.  And again: you're still ignoring every other TIM scene in the game in which SHEPARD is the (obvious) hologram and the POV is in TIM's office.  The only time he's actually a hologram is the during the base decision at the end, when the POV is with Shepard.

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 janvier 2011 - 09:26 .

[Bailyn242]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Really.. so if Shepard had arrived after they had done their usual mop up and there was no evidence that they had been there at all, or that it wasn't a Cerberus trick?

Or arrived too soon, and found nothing but an unruly bunch of colonists upset at his being there and wondering what all the fuss was about, and having to wait... how long, exactly?

Think about it.

Think about what? You're not saying much. The attack on Horizon was going to happen sooner or later without Cerberus involvement. TIM just put them on his schedule and took advantage of that.

Moiaussi wrote...

Maybe you should re-read my post. The suggestion was that TIM might be something other than strictly human because he has glowing eyes. TIM might be there in person in various scenes in the books, but every time Shepard meets him in game it is as a hologram... unless you are suggesting that TIM was actually tagging along on the Normandy....

As such, the appearance we see in game doesn't have to relate to TIM's actual appearance at all. Doesn't mean it doesn't, just that we are just seeing an image.

The idea that his eyes might indicate him being something other than human is baseless conjecture. That is a very weak base for your argument.

So what are you trying to say? Are you suggesting TIM might be a hologram projected into the office, or that the office itself isn't real or what? Neither of those claims are supported by the games or books. It seems like you're coming up with weak arguments to support a weak claim.

The issue with Horizon is not the timing it is the choice that TIM makes to make damn sure that Shepard has no backup. That is where it all falls down. Horizon was right on the Relay network, no fly from on system to Horizon's system from a Relay. Pop out of the Relay and drop on Horizon, done. There is no reason that the Alliance couldn't have dropped in behind Shepard.

Listen to the Horoizon news reports and how the Council and the rest of the Galaxy takes the Alliance's inability to protect their own people was viewed. You could easily argue that TIM's actions did as much political damage to humanity as it cost in lives. Rationalize all you want, Horizon and his later actions with the Collector vessel and derelict Reaper prove his continued failures. His way costs the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Don't forget, Ferris Fields and New Canton came after Horizon which means that those lives, on top of the 200-300K colonists from Horizon are on his hands. He could have stopped that ship on Horizon. Even if the Alliance and Shepard had to destroy the ship with the colonists aboard they would have saved lives and strengthened Humanity and the Alliance in the Galaxy's eyes. 

On the derelict Reaper someone talked about how it was important that they find the IFF. Well they found it and got it set up all tidy like. Why didn't they simply take off as soon as they had done that? TIM left his people in the dark, they certainly didn't seem to be in any all fired hurry. Did they rush to find the IFF, get it sdetup and then hung out in the corpse of a giant sentient machine waiting for Shepard? Gimme a break, they could have removed the IFF and boarded their ship and pulled away from the Reaper to wait for Shepard. Instead they got Huskified, I cannot for the life of me understand how you guys are missing this point. 

[Bailyn242]

Freelancer rook wrote...

No, the end justifies the means.

Really? I gather from that that you can be found at the Phizer labs as their test subject on the latest drug therapy they came up with yesterday right? Live human testing of something that could cure <insert nasty disease name here> is an end that justifies any means.

Get right on that would ya? We'll wait right here.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Your actual point fails though, because we, the players, are shown TIM directly and not from Shep's POV in all but one instance.  Again: look no further than the very first scene of the game. 

We know that isn't simply a hologam projected to whereever Miranda is stationed, how?

Because holograms have a distinctive, partially transparent look, and often include noise. TIM just looks like any other character that's physically present in a scene.  And again: you're still ignoring every other TIM scene in the game in which SHEPARD is the (obvious) hologram and the POV is in TIM's office.  The only time he's actually a hologram is the during the base decision at the end, when the POV is with Shepard.

Moreover, during the Epilogue conversation, we are given a short glimpse at Shepard with TIM's own eyes! Not over his shoulder, but from the 1st person perspective! And his vision is clearly augmented, as we can see some kind of frame overlay around Shepard's face. It gave food for all kinds of "TIM is a cyborg!" and "TIM is a husk!" speculations, but it clearly sends the message: TIM's eyes are cybernetically augmented.

If TIM was using some sort a fake hologram of himself to deceive Shepard, why wouldn't he photoshop these eyes away?

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Your actual point fails though, because we, the players, are shown TIM directly and not from Shep's POV in all but one instance.  Again: look no further than the very first scene of the game. 

We know that isn't simply a hologam projected to whereever Miranda is stationed, how?

Because holograms have a distinctive, partially transparent look, and often include noise. TIM just looks like any other character that's physically present in a scene.  And again: you're still ignoring every other TIM scene in the game in which SHEPARD is the (obvious) hologram and the POV is in TIM's office.  The only time he's actually a hologram is the during the base decision at the end, when the POV is with Shepard.

Moreover, during the Epilogue conversation, we are given a short glimpse at Shepard with TIM's own eyes! Not over his shoulder, but from the 1st person perspective! And his vision is clearly augmented, as we can see some kind of frame overlay around Shepard's face. It gave food for all kinds of "TIM is a cyborg!" and "TIM is a husk!" speculations, but it clearly sends the message: TIM's eyes are cybernetically augmented.

If TIM was using some sort a fake hologram of himself to deceive Shepard, why wouldn't he photoshop these eyes away?

I get the impression that we'll find out what's up with TIM's eyes in the next Evolution release.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Listen to the Horoizon news reports and how the Council and the rest of the Galaxy takes the Alliance's inability to protect their own people was viewed. You could easily argue that TIM's actions did as much political damage to humanity as it cost in lives. Rationalize all you want, Horizon and his later actions with the Collector vessel and derelict Reaper prove his continued failures. His way costs the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Don't forget, Ferris Fields and New Canton came after Horizon which means that those lives, on top of the 200-300K colonists from Horizon are on his hands. He could have stopped that ship on Horizon. Even if the Alliance and Shepard had to destroy the ship with the colonists aboard they would have saved lives and strengthened Humanity and the Alliance in the Galaxy's eyes. 

Completely incorrect. The Alliance uses the attack as an excuse to send a military fleet to Horizon, to "investigate" it. Something it couldn't do before, since the colony was kinda independent of the Alliance and did not welcome any Alliance presence. But now the remaining half of the colonists will be damn happy to be annexed by the Alliance and brought back to daddy.

Plus without the intelligence about the Collector capabilities, there was no telling that the Alliance could stop it. For all TIM knew, it my have been another Reaper.

Plus, as Ferris Fields and New Canton get abducted around the same time the Collector Cruiser was busy laying trap for Shepard, it only suggests that there may be another Collector Cruiser, that we never got to see, and that was operating independently of the one we were familiar with. We may have to fight it in ME3 yet.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 janvier 2011 - 10:16 .