965 réponses à ce sujet

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Listen to the Horoizon news reports and how the Council and the rest of the Galaxy takes the Alliance's inability to protect their own people was viewed. You could easily argue that TIM's actions did as much political damage to humanity as it cost in lives. Rationalize all you want, Horizon and his later actions with the Collector vessel and derelict Reaper prove his continued failures. His way costs the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Don't forget, Ferris Fields and New Canton came after Horizon which means that those lives, on top of the 200-300K colonists from Horizon are on his hands. He could have stopped that ship on Horizon. Even if the Alliance and Shepard had to destroy the ship with the colonists aboard they would have saved lives and strengthened Humanity and the Alliance in the Galaxy's eyes. 

Completely incorrect. The Alliance uses the attack as an excuse to send a military fleet to Horizon, to "investigate" it. Something it couldn't do before, since the colony was kinda independent of the Alliance and did not welcome any Alliance presence. But now the remaining half of the colonists will be damn happy to be annexed by the Alliance and brought back to the daddy.

Huh? So there was no news comment that mentions the assumption that being a Council Member means being able to take care of your own species and help others as well? Sorry man, gotta disagree, there is a comment to that effect in the game. It might not be around the Horizon mission but the perception is mentioned and therefore TIM screwed Humanity's image when he kept them in the dark about the attack on Horizon.

Keep trying to rationalize. 

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Because holograms have a distinctive, partially transparent look, and often include noise. TIM just looks like any other character that's physically present in a scene.  And again: you're still ignoring every other TIM scene in the game in which SHEPARD is the (obvious) hologram and the POV is in TIM's office.  The only time he's actually a hologram is the during the base decision at the end, when the POV is with Shepard.

I just re-watched the initial meeting.



He doesn't seem to have glowing eyes at all.

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Listen to the Horoizon news reports and how the Council and the rest of the Galaxy takes the Alliance's inability to protect their own people was viewed. You could easily argue that TIM's actions did as much political damage to humanity as it cost in lives. Rationalize all you want, Horizon and his later actions with the Collector vessel and derelict Reaper prove his continued failures. His way costs the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Don't forget, Ferris Fields and New Canton came after Horizon which means that those lives, on top of the 200-300K colonists from Horizon are on his hands. He could have stopped that ship on Horizon. Even if the Alliance and Shepard had to destroy the ship with the colonists aboard they would have saved lives and strengthened Humanity and the Alliance in the Galaxy's eyes. 

snip answered the snipped portion in my previous post....

Plus without the intelligence about the Collector capabilities, there was no telling that the Alliance could stop it. For all TIM knew, it my have been another Reaper.

Plus, as Ferris Fields and New Canton get abducted around the same time the Collector Cruiser was busy laying trap for Shepard, it only suggests that there may be another Collector Cruiser, that we never got to see, and that was operating independently of the one we were familiar with. We may have to fight it in ME3 yet.

These are just excuses and suppositions. Point one is pure excuse. The second is pure speculation.

Ferris Fields and New Canton happen after Horizon and they happen consecutively so that a single collector vessel could have taken the action. Also, If Shepard contacted the Alliance and said " Horizon is off the air and I have intel that says it is being his by these abductors" do you really believe that Anderson would ignore him? Even if your speculation about multiple vessels is correct you've just kicked the Collectors in their Daddy Bags and reestablished your credibility with the Alliance and Council. Instead what we get is more colonies abducted and Shepard still estranged from the authorities.

Still have done nothing to justify TIM's failures.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Listen to the Horoizon news reports and how the Council and the rest of the Galaxy takes the Alliance's inability to protect their own people was viewed. You could easily argue that TIM's actions did as much political damage to humanity as it cost in lives. Rationalize all you want, Horizon and his later actions with the Collector vessel and derelict Reaper prove his continued failures. His way costs the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Don't forget, Ferris Fields and New Canton came after Horizon which means that those lives, on top of the 200-300K colonists from Horizon are on his hands. He could have stopped that ship on Horizon. Even if the Alliance and Shepard had to destroy the ship with the colonists aboard they would have saved lives and strengthened Humanity and the Alliance in the Galaxy's eyes. 

Completely incorrect. The Alliance uses the attack as an excuse to send a military fleet to Horizon, to "investigate" it. Something it couldn't do before, since the colony was kinda independent of the Alliance and did not welcome any Alliance presence. But now the remaining half of the colonists will be damn happy to be annexed by the Alliance and brought back to daddy.

Huh? So there was no news comment that mentions the assumption that being a Council Member means being able to take care of your own species and help others as well? Sorry man, gotta disagree, there is a comment to that effect in the game. It might not be around the Horizon mission but the perception is mentioned and therefore TIM screwed Humanity's image when he kept them in the dark about the attack on Horizon.

Keep trying to rationalize. 

A doctor can't help you if you don't want to be healthy. The Horizon colonists did not want to be protected by the Alliance from anything. Why did the Alliance bother at all?

But yeah, it's a problem of the "racial security" when the colonies of your species exclusively come under attack even though on a "no man's land". So something had to be done about it, and indeed something was being done. Namely, Cerberus was gathering intelligence with its leader ready to call in the cavalry at any time.

Bailyn242 wrote...

These are just excuses and suppositions. Point one is pure excuse. The second is pure speculation.

Excuse or not, that's how military strategy works. You don't commit the main forces to battle until you learn your enemy.

Bailyn242 wrote...

Ferris Fields and New Canton happen after Horizon and they happen consecutively so that a single collector vessel could have taken the action. Also, If Shepard contacted the Alliance and said " Horizon is off the air and I have intel that says it is being his by these abductors" do you really believe that Anderson would ignore him? Even if your speculation about multiple vessels is correct you've just kicked the Collectors in their Daddy Bags and  reestablished your credibility with the Alliance and Council. Instead what we get is more colonies abducted and Shepard still estranged from the authorities.

A single Collector vessel could not abduct a couple of colonies and at the same time play a beached whale waiting for Shepard to come look at the holes he punched in it on Horizon.

All Anderson was interested in was investigating Shepard's connection to Cerberus. That's why he sent the VS and those guns.

And to put it so that you could understand it, Horizon was an enemy of the Alliance.

Still have done nothing to justify TIM's failures.

The only TIM's failure ever is his treating that snake Paul Grayson like a son.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 janvier 2011 - 11:22 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Because holograms have a distinctive, partially transparent look, and often include noise. TIM just looks like any other character that's physically present in a scene.  And again: you're still ignoring every other TIM scene in the game in which SHEPARD is the (obvious) hologram and the POV is in TIM's office.  The only time he's actually a hologram is the during the base decision at the end, when the POV is with Shepard.

I just re-watched the initial meeting.



He doesn't seem to have glowing eyes at all.

Why are you making a fool of yourself? There is a close-up shot of his eyes towards the end of the Prologue, where we get the most detailed look of his cyber-glowing retinas.

Here:

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 janvier 2011 - 11:19 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why are you making a fool of yourself? There is a close-up shot of his eyes towards the end of the Prologue, where we get the most detailed look of his cyber-glowing retinas.

Hardly glowing. Nothing 20th century cosmetic contact lenses couldn't do. It might be something more or it might be to intimidate people. Either way, hardly evidence of 'evil'... other than maybe further proof that the self proclaimed champion of humanity might not be entirely human.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:18 .

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Listen to the Horoizon news reports and how the Council and the rest of the Galaxy takes the Alliance's inability to protect their own people was viewed. You could easily argue that TIM's actions did as much political damage to humanity as it cost in lives. Rationalize all you want, Horizon and his later actions with the Collector vessel and derelict Reaper prove his continued failures. His way costs the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Don't forget, Ferris Fields and New Canton came after Horizon which means that those lives, on top of the 200-300K colonists from Horizon are on his hands. He could have stopped that ship on Horizon. Even if the Alliance and Shepard had to destroy the ship with the colonists aboard they would have saved lives and strengthened Humanity and the Alliance in the Galaxy's eyes. 

Completely incorrect. The Alliance uses the attack as an excuse to send a military fleet to Horizon, to "investigate" it. Something it couldn't do before, since the colony was kinda independent of the Alliance and did not welcome any Alliance presence. But now the remaining half of the colonists will be damn happy to be annexed by the Alliance and brought back to daddy.

Huh? So there was no news comment that mentions the assumption that being a Council Member means being able to take care of your own species and help others as well? Sorry man, gotta disagree, there is a comment to that effect in the game. It might not be around the Horizon mission but the perception is mentioned and therefore TIM screwed Humanity's image when he kept them in the dark about the attack on Horizon.

Keep trying to rationalize. 

A doctor can't help you if you don't want to be healthy. The Horizon colonists did not want to be protected by the Alliance from anything. Why did the Alliance bother at all?

But yeah, it's a problem of the "racial security" when the colonies of your species exclusively come under attack even though on a "no man's land". So something had to be done about it, and indeed something was being done. Namely, Cerberus was gathering intelligence with its leader ready to call in the cavalry at any time.

Once the attack begins its Cavalry time and when you specifically request the Cavalry he makes excuses... sorry, your argument doesn't hold water in that case. No matter what the Colonists political leanings were, if TIM is really out for Humanity then he failed in his self appointed task, utterly failed.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

These are just excuses and suppositions. Point one is pure excuse. The second is pure speculation.

Excuse or not, that's how military strategy works. You don't commit the main forces to battle until you learn your enemy.

Uhm, Shepard was committed to battle. On top of that most military commanders try to prepare for the worst and hope for the best but  I see no preparations for the worst. TIM deliberately kept the Alliance out of the loop. That is what you continue to ignore. Instead you attempt to cloak his failings in "Military Strategy". Guess what, in my unit a commander like that was a friendly fire incident waiting to happen. Still haven't seen a strategically sound reason for his actions here.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Ferris Fields and New Canton happen after Horizon and they happen consecutively so that a single collector vessel could have taken the action. Also, If Shepard contacted the Alliance and said " Horizon is off the air and I have intel that says it is being his by these abductors" do you really believe that Anderson would ignore him? Even if your speculation about multiple vessels is correct you've just kicked the Collectors in their Daddy Bags and  reestablished your credibility with the Alliance and Council. Instead what we get is more colonies abducted and Shepard still estranged from the authorities.

A single Collector vessel could not abduct a couple of colonies and at the same time play a beached whale waiting for Shepard to come look at the holes he punched in it on Horizon.

All Anderson was interested in was investigating Shepard's connection to Cerberus. That's why he sent the VS and those guns.

And to put it so that you could understand it, Horizon was an enemy of the Alliance.

Huh? Precisely how was Horizon a threat to the Alliance? That's generally when someone moves from I don't like to enemy. They were pioneers who wanted out from under the central government but they did not do so by attacking the Alliance or the Citadel.

On top of this you and others have consistently pointed out that TIM is out for humanity "Cerberus IS humanity" not the Alliance. Your argument would hold water if the Alliance was told of the Raid and said we can't help since they are, a) in the Terminus Systems, a no fly zone for Citadel Fleets, or we wont go because they are Enemies of the State. Instead what we get is, "I won't bring them in until you've investigated." 

Still have done nothing to justify TIM's failures.

Zulu_DFA wrote...The only TIM's failure ever is his treating that snake Paul Grayson like a son.

TIMs failures of command have been well documented here by many people. Your "Military Justifications" are little more than eyewash in the hopes you don't run into someone with experience. On top of that TIM doesn't work in that sphere, he's a policy guy, not a strategist. At least he better not be since he doesn't understand the most basic principles of warfare. No plan survives contact with the enemy. He regularly fails to adjust and makes sure that Shepard and his own teams are short on information that they could use to make those adjustments once in combat.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:07 .

[Ship.wreck_]

Yes he is evil. He refuses to notify the Aliance Navy of an invasion (Horizon). He knowingly sends Sheperd into a trap without informing him of the risks (Collector Ship). Sheperd would have been willing to go into the Collector ship even with the knowledge that it was a trap, and he would have been a LOT better prepared to, if he had been informed. There was no logical reason not to inform him, TIM simply demonstrates an incredible lack of concern for human lives at every possible opportunity. Not to mention that his Cerberus is a KNOWN terrorist organisation guilty of commiting atrocities against both humans and non humans, not to mention the outright murder of an Aliance Navy Admiral in ME. Case closed.

[Urazz]

I'd say he's more ammoral than evil. He's aiming for a good goal (protecting humanity) but has no scruples on how he does it or will cross any boundries to do it.

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...
Hardly glowing.

Does this count?



How 'bout this?



Given how dim the lighting is, the source for that, well, glow has to be TIM's eyes.  Now look what happens when he's well lit:



The eyes look very different due to the glow being too dim to show up in such bright conditions, but the odd structure of his irises is still visible.

Modifié par didymos1120, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:45 .

[Ship.wreck_]

Urazz wrote...

I'd say he's more ammoral than evil. He's aiming for a good goal (protecting humanity) but has no scruples on how he does it or will cross any boundries to do it.

Ammoral is evil.

[amers1015]

Performing harmful and sometimes deadly experiments on children is evil. I have no idea how this is even up for debate.

ETA:  I guess if you actually believe him when he says that the guys who messed up Jack were rogue then the above doesn't count, but I don't buy that for a second. 

Modifié par amers1015, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:58 .

[Inverness Moon]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why are you making a fool of yourself? There is a close-up shot of his eyes towards the end of the Prologue, where we get the most detailed look of his cyber-glowing retinas.

Hardly glowing. Nothing 20th century cosmetic contact lenses couldn't do. It might be something more or it might be to intimidate people. Either way, hardly evidence of 'evil'... other than maybe further proof that the self proclaimed champion of humanity might not be entirely human.

Get real. Having cybernetic eyes does not make you less human. Do you realize renegade Shepard's eyes have the same configuration and glow except they're red? To me that points out the extremely obvious that both TIM and Shepard have cybernetic eyes, only TIM has no need to hide his like Shepard.

If you want to determine how human one is by the percentage of cybernetics in their body then I imagine Shepard is far less human that TIM at this point.

Ship.wreck wrote...

Urazz wrote...

I'd say he's more ammoral than evil. He's aiming for a good goal (protecting humanity) but has no scruples on how he does it or will cross any boundries to do it.

Ammoral is evil.

Ridiculous. Geth are amoral and far from evil. Both morality and evil are arbitrary concepts.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:54 .

[Ship.wreck_]

If the question is arbitrary, why do you bother answering?

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

A doctor can't help you if you don't want to be healthy. The Horizon colonists did not want to be protected by the Alliance from anything. Why did the Alliance bother at all?

But yeah, it's a problem of the "racial security" when the colonies of your species exclusively come under attack even though on a "no man's land". So something had to be done about it, and indeed something was being done. Namely, Cerberus was gathering intelligence with its leader ready to call in the cavalry at any time.[/quote]
Once the attack begins its Cavalry time and when you specifically request the Cavalry he makes excuses... sorry, your argument doesn't hold water in that case. No matter what the Colonists political leanings were, if TIM is really out for Humanity then he failed in his self appointed task, utterly failed.
[/quote]
No. The cavalry time is when TIM decides it's cavalry time. And it's not going to be until he knows for sure that the cavalry isn't going to get little-bighorned.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

These are just excuses and suppositions. Point one is pure excuse. The second is pure speculation.
[/quote]
Excuse or not, that's how military strategy works. You don't commit the main forces to battle until you learn your enemy.
[/quote]
Uhm, Shepard was committed to battle.[/quote]
Because Shepard is not the main force. He is a recon force.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

On top of that most military commanders try to prepare for the worst and hope for the best but  I see no preparations for the worst.
[/quote]
"Need-to-know" basis. What you need to know, is that the Council has dissmissed the claim of the Reapers and there could be serious political ramifications to your very presence on the Citadel. Do what you are told to the best of your ability.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

TIM deliberately kept the Alliance out of the loop. That is what you continue to ignore.
[/quote]
Mmmm... I guess the Alliance, impersonated by Fleet Admiral Hackett kept itself out of the loop, when there was a chance to grab Shepard and learn what he knew... Why is that?


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

Instead you attempt to cloak his failings in "Military Strategy". Guess what, in my unit a commander like that was a friendly fire incident waiting to happen. Still haven't seen a strategically sound reason for his actions here.
[/quote]
I'm getting a bit mad every time this "friendly fire accident" sh*t is brought up. I think soldiers that even admit such an idea are only good for cannon fodder, so it kinda justifies the attitude of thier superiors.

Anyway, you don't like TIM's leadersip? Quit. It's not like you owe him anything, right? Don't save the Galaxy. There are plenty of other Shepards that'll do it instead of you.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

A single Collector vessel could not abduct a couple of colonies and at the same time play a beached whale waiting for Shepard to come look at the holes he punched in it on Horizon.

All Anderson was interested in was investigating Shepard's connection to Cerberus. That's why he sent the VS and those guns.

And to put it so that you could understand it, Horizon was an enemy of the Alliance. [/quote]
Huh? Precisely how was Horizon a threat to the Alliance? That's generally when someone moves from I don't like to enemy. They were pioneers who wanted out from under the central government but they did not do so by attacking the Alliance or the Citadel.
[/quote]
You are just another person who thinks that the Alliance is a case of Western Democracy in space. What if the Alliance is a Communist China in space? Or a Banana Republic in space? Or (that's my view) a British East India Company in space? In any of these cases, a breakaway colony serving as a refuge for all kinds of dissenters is an enemy, even if it does not commit acts of war against the "Fatherland".


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

On top of this you and others have consistently pointed out that TIM is out for humanity "Cerberus IS humanity" not the Alliance. Your argument would hold water if the Alliance was told of the Raid and said we can't help since they are, a) in the Terminus Systems, a no fly zone for Citadel Fleets, or we wont go because they are Enemies of the State. Instead what we get is, "I won't bring them in until you've investigated." 
[/quote]
TIM already knows these answers, he perfectly understands the Alliance's policies, so he doesn't need to go through the trouble to just please your paragon conscience.

And I repeat, TIM chose Horizon as target for the Collector attack, because this colony was an enemy of the Alliance and therefore an enemy of Humanity. In his view anyway. Why this isn't being used by the likes of you as a proof of him being "evil" is beyond me. Actually no, not beyond me. You guys don't want to admit that Cerberus never "went rogue", and therefore the Alliance is just as "evil" as TIM.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

TIMs failures of command have been well documented here by many people. Your "Military Justifications" are little more than eyewash in the hopes you don't run into someone with experience.
[/quote]
Don't tell me you've got a lot of experience. Past wanting to shoot your CO, that is.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

On top of that TIM doesn't work in that sphere, he's a policy guy, not a strategist. At least he better not be since he doesn't understand the most basic principles of warfare.
[/quote]
Sorry, but the game sugests otherwise. Cerberus has been afloat for almost 30 years by the time of ME2. In spite of all "failures".


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[/quote]
That's why there must not be any planning, right? You see an enemy, you zergrush it -- pretty much what you suggest when saying that TIM should have called for the reinforcements to attack the Collector ship on sight.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

He regularly fails to adjust and makes sure that Shepard and his own teams are short on information that they could use to make those adjustments once in combat.[/quote]
He makes sure that Shepard and his other teams are short of information that could compromise his plans, should Shepard or his other agents fall in the enemy's hands. That's how intelligence agencies work.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 01:23 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why are you making a fool of yourself? There is a close-up shot of his eyes towards the end of the Prologue, where we get the most detailed look of his cyber-glowing retinas.

Hardly glowing. Nothing 20th century cosmetic contact lenses couldn't do. It might be something more or it might be to intimidate people. Either way, hardly evidence of 'evil'... other than maybe further proof that the self proclaimed champion of humanity might not be entirely human.

Get real. Having cybernetic eyes does not make you less human. Do you realize renegade Shepard's eyes have the same configuration and glow except they're red? To me that points out the extremely obvious that both TIM and Shepard have cybernetic eyes, only TIM has no need to hide his like Shepard.

If you want to determine how human one is by the percentage of cybernetics in their body then I imagine Shepard is far less human that TIM at this point.

In fact, Shepard's eyes glow orange, and exactly like Infested Kerrigan's eyes. Which means that Shepard is a Zerg, and the Zerg were created by Cerberus. This much was, by the way, revealed more than a decade ago in the StarCraft Precursor campaign.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 01:33 .

[Bailyn242]

Not going to bother quoting the entire post but your ignoring what I suggested should have been the strategy on Horizon. Call the Alliance, have them in position behind Shepard and they would have been in position to respond to the intel in a timely manner. TIM, on the other hand, doesn't do this. He wants nothing to do with something like this either. He leaves the Alliance out of position to respond in any meaningful way.



Attack me for cracking a comment about friendly fire if you want but it doesn't change anything. I see your comments and raise you a little pre battle planning. TIM left Shepard no options. He sent him in blind with no backup, no extraction plan and repeatedly short on intel. None of the officers I served under or worked with in my service were this useless. How does Shepard get off planet if the Collector Ship Engages the Normandy on its way out? No backup, no extraction, no planning.



British East India Company? Seriously? They would have wanted to do something to turn around public perception back home just as much as I suggested in a previous post. TIMs actions left the Alliance out of the loop when stopping the Collectors would have strengthened the Alliance (BEIC) in a political sense. You want to use the excuse that the Alliance and Council have dismissed the Reaper threat, I'll raise you a Councillor Anderson busting his butt to prove they exist. Helping Shepard/Cerberus on Horizon would have established that the Collectors were responsible not Cerberus if nothing else AND taken out an enemy cruiser. Even more the wreckage of the vessel might have proven once and for all that the threat was real. Even if the Council didn't go public with the info, they certainly would have ramped up recruiting and construction of new ships in preparation.

[Inverness Moon]

Ship.wreck wrote...

If the question is arbitrary, why do you bother answering?

Because, arbitrary or not, I think your view is nonsensical.

[Moiaussi]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Get real. Having cybernetic eyes does not make you less human. Do you realize renegade Shepard's eyes have the same configuration and glow except they're red? To me that points out the extremely obvious that both TIM and Shepard have cybernetic eyes, only TIM has no need to hide his like Shepard.

If you want to determine how human one is by the percentage of cybernetics in their body then I imagine Shepard is far less human that TIM at this point.

And there are all the same questions as to definition of 'humanity' that occur in all science fiction touching on the topic. At what point is one 'human' vs 'something else?'

Eyes are only what we see of TIM that is different than a normal human. Anybody's guess what is beneath the suit. We know that Cerberus can grow human tissue back and can grow as much of a body back as need be.

The questions apply in Shep's case too, but Shep isn't claiming to be the champion of humanity specificly. Also whether it affects Shepard's personality is a completely different question.

[lovgreno]

amers1015 wrote...

Performing harmful and sometimes deadly experiments on children is evil. I have no idea how this is even up for debate.

ETA:  I guess if you actually believe him when he says that the guys who messed up Jack were rogue then the above doesn't count, but I don't buy that for a second. 

From TIMmys point of wiev nothing is evil or good, just necesary or not necesary. He says a lot of things but nothing is trustworthy. If he didn't know about all the mess his subcommanders constantly make he is not necesarily evil, just incompetent, but that is a different topic. Sure, from the point of wiev of Cerberus victims they are evil (and full of fail) but TIMmy belives it is for the greater good in the long run.

Kind of ironic when you think about it: Cerberus went rogue to be free to commit political terrorism and wacky experiments free from being bothered by the Alliance leadership and then every cell they have sooner or later goes rogue so that they can work  without being bothered by Cerberus leadership.

[jeweledleah]

lovgreno wrote...

amers1015 wrote...

Performing harmful and sometimes deadly experiments on children is evil. I have no idea how this is even up for debate.

ETA:  I guess if you actually believe him when he says that the guys who messed up Jack were rogue then the above doesn't count, but I don't buy that for a second. 

From TIMmys point of wiev nothing is evil or good, just necesary or not necesary. He says a lot of things but nothing is trustworthy. If he didn't know about all the mess his subcommanders constantly make he is not necesarily evil, just incompetent, but that is a different topic. Sure, from the point of wiev of Cerberus victims they are evil (and full of fail) but TIMmy belives it is for the greater good in the long run.

Kind of ironic when you think about it: Cerberus went rogue to be free to commit political terrorism and wacky experiments free from being bothered by the Alliance leadership and then every cell they have sooner or later goes rogue so that they can work  without being bothered by Cerberus leadership.

I honestly don't buy him not knowing.  especialy after reading Cerberus dossier in liar of the shadow broker.  He knows.  he just uses the "autonomy" (imagine Turian ambasador here >_>) of his cells as an excuse for plausable deniability.  He knows though.   they might be able to hide an occasional detail here and there, but he finds out sooner or later, he just doesn't act on it, unless it becomes too dangerous.  Otherwise he's the absolute most incompetent leader ever and he just doesn't come across as THAT incompetent.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

I think I'll just state here that the fact that this endless debate on TIM's morality proves how good of a character he could potentially be in ME3.

[Bailyn242]

EffectedByTheMasses wrote...

I think I'll just state here that the fact that this endless debate on TIM's morality proves how good of a character he could potentially be in ME3.

In a, makes the story interesting, sense sure. As long as we get a chance to do something about him at some point.

[PantokratorII]

ruthless experiments (some including children)

political assassinations

belief in "master race" humans

"cerberus is humanity"



for me it pretty much equals a (space) fascist. I know that word gets thrown around a lot without proper cause, but TIM is, to me, an old-school fascist - you know the kind that really flourished in 30-40 ties.



His eyes are probably just some sort of data-interface system, so he is up-to-date on his sinister machinations.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No. The cavalry time is when TIM decides it's cavalry time. And it's not going to be until he knows for sure that the cavalry isn't going to get little-bighorned.

So he is reluctant to call in the cavalry because the cavalry might get hurt? When is the right time? When the Reapers are sacking Earth? Not to mention we are not even talking about calling in the cavalry since he isn't even willing to send the cavalry confirmation that there is a war on.

Because Shepard is not the main force. He is a recon force.

More rampant speculation. Besides, a recon force that is never allowed by its commander to actually report in is pretty useless.

"Need-to-know" basis. What you need to know, is that the Council has dissmissed the claim of the Reapers and there could be serious political ramifications to your very presence on the Citadel. Do what you are told to the best of your ability.

Yes, the council dismissed the claim based on a lack of evidence. Evidence that TIM is actively suppressing. Oh, and they consider Shep an enemy because they leaked that rumour before Shep even regained consciousness.

See a pattern here?

Mmmm... I guess the Alliance, impersonated by Fleet Admiral Hackett kept itself out of the loop, when there was a chance to grab Shepard and learn what he knew... Why is that?

Because if Shepard was coopted, they would probably just get misinformation. That or old loyalties, Hackett trusting Shep to 'do the right thing.' Hackett choosing badly does not redeem TIM regardless. Isn't the 'Cerberus isn't bad...... look what they are doing!' schtick wearing a bit thin by now?
 

Anyway, you don't like TIM's leadersip? Quit. It's not like you owe him anything, right? Don't save the Galaxy. There are plenty of other Shepards that'll do it instead of you.

And that gets TIM to stop withholding vital intel, how, exactly? "Omg, that man is beating those poor people up! Just walk away..... if we don't see it, those people aren't really being beaten." Right.......

You are just another person who thinks that the Alliance is a case of Western Democracy in space. What if the Alliance is a Communist China in space? Or a Banana Republic in space? Or (that's my view) a British East India Company in space? In any of these cases, a breakaway colony serving as a refuge for all kinds of dissenters is an enemy, even if it does not commit acts of war against the "Fatherland".

Do you have any actual evidence of anything you are spouting? Why would any politicians need to actively campaign, and why would they be able to do so without fear of reprisal? You have very strange ideas of what constitutes an enemy. I'll bet you think any roommate who moves out on you is an enemy too, regardless of the reasons.