965 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

EffectedByTheMasses wrote...

I think I'll just state here that the fact that this endless debate on TIM's morality proves how good of a character he could potentially be in ME3.

This is just a continuation of the same debate from ME1 and the novels. It also proves how good a character he could have been in ME2.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Not going to bother quoting the entire post but your ignoring what I suggested should have been the strategy on Horizon. Call the Alliance, have them in position behind Shepard and they would have been in position to respond to the intel in a timely manner. TIM, on the other hand, doesn't do this. He wants nothing to do with something like this either. He leaves the Alliance out of position to respond in any meaningful way.

The Alliance must have bigger problems at hand than responding to an anarchist colony being abducted. Hopefully, next folks will think twice before undermining the Human unity by establishing independent colonies deuce knows where.

Bailyn242 wrote...

Attack me for cracking a comment about friendly fire if you want but it doesn't change anything. I see your comments and raise you a little pre battle planning. TIM left Shepard no options.

Why should he?

Bailyn242 wrote...

He sent him in blind with no backup, no extraction plan and repeatedly short on intel. None of the officers I served under or worked with in my service were
this useless. How does Shepard get off planet if the Collector Ship
Engages the Normandy on its way out? No backup, no extraction, no
planning.

Well, at least he made sure Mordin invented his super-duper-mosquito-spray. As for the extraction plan in case things get too hairy, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, and think that Shepard, a special forces officer he is, would work it out with Joker on their own, while I am watching the loading screen. After all Bioware is not too good at military stuff. They even have Shepard ignore the left hand salute blunder from the guard in the server room, so what else do you expect?

Bailyn242 wrote...

British East India Company? Seriously? They would have wanted to do something to turn around public perception back home just as much as I suggested in a previous post. TIMs actions left the Alliance out of the loop when stopping the Collectors would have strengthened the Alliance (BEIC) in a political sense.

Given the entire Galaxy thinks the Collectors are a myth, I kinda doubd it. More probably, it would have been treeted as another Alliance's attempt to get ahead.

Bailyn242 wrote...

You want to use the excuse that the Alliance and Council have dismissed the Reaper threat, I'll raise you a Councillor Anderson busting his butt to prove they exist.

Met much success?

Bailyn242 wrote...

Helping Shepard/Cerberus on Horizon would have established that the Collectors were responsible not Cerberus if nothing else AND taken out an enemy cruiser. Even more the wreckage of the vessel might have proven once and for all that the threat was real. Even if the Council didn't go public with the info, they certainly would have ramped up recruiting and construction of new ships in preparation.

The Council races are secretly aware of the Reapers. See: Mordin's paper on indoctrination. Plus assume that having Mordin aboard the Normandy was TIM's way of conveying information to the STG. He disclosed nothing really sensitive about Cerberus to you and Mordin (nothing the STG wouldn't already know about via the Shadow Broker or elsewise), but Mordin saw everything you saw, and that means STG is aware of it too. By the way, Mordin approves of TIM's tactic regarding the Collector Cruiser raid.

[Fromyou]

500 comments!!!! And yeah I give major credits to Bioware for creating a character like TIM to be debatable

[Bailyn242]

[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

Not going to bother quoting the entire post but your ignoring what I suggested should have been the strategy on Horizon. Call the Alliance, have them in position behind Shepard and they would have been in position to respond to the intel in a timely manner. TIM, on the other hand, doesn't do this. He wants nothing to do with something like this either. He leaves the Alliance out of position to respond in any meaningful way.
[/quote]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
The Alliance must have bigger problems at hand than responding to an anarchist colony being abducted. Hopefully, next folks will think twice before undermining the Human unity by establishing independent colonies deuce knows where.
[/quote]

Yeah, they have Humans disappearing all over the Galaxy, disappearing in job lots greater than 100K per raid. Nothing to worry about though. They're separatists, loyalists aren't getting hurt. 

On more question, why put billions of credits worth of ordinance on a colony you want to fail?


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

Attack me for cracking a comment about friendly fire if you want but it doesn't change anything. I see your comments and raise you a little pre battle planning. TIM left Shepard no options.
[/quote]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why should he?
[/quote]

Nicely ignored the myriad reasons you'd want to stop the Collectors cold.



[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

He sent him in blind with no backup, no extraction plan and repeatedly short on intel. None of the officers I served under or worked with in my service were
this useless. How does Shepard get off planet if the Collector Ship
Engages the Normandy on its way out? No backup, no extraction, no
planning.
[/quote]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...


Well, at least he made sure Mordin invented his super-duper-mosquito-spray. As for the extraction plan in case things get too hairy, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, and think that Shepard, a special forces officer he is, would work it out with Joker on their own, while I am watching the loading screen. After all Bioware is not too good at military stuff. They even have Shepard ignore the left hand salute blunder from the guard in the server room, so what else do you expect?
[/quote]

Really? There was a backup plan if the Normandy got taken out? What pray tell was that? If the Normandy gets taken out the Collectors could turn around and take everyone.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

British East India Company? Seriously? They would have wanted to do something to turn around public perception back home just as much as I suggested in a previous post. TIMs actions left the Alliance out of the loop when stopping the Collectors would have strengthened the Alliance (BEIC) in a political sense.
[/quote]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Given the entire Galaxy thinks the Collectors are a myth, I kinda doubd it. More probably, it would have been treeted as another Alliance's attempt to get ahead.
[/quote]

Haha, tell me another one, most of humanity thinks they are a myth but many races are familiar with them including a Quarian kid on his pilgrimage. Not exactly a myth there. That kid gets fairly detailed about them in Ascension.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

You want to use the excuse that the Alliance and Council have dismissed the Reaper threat, I'll raise you a Councillor Anderson busting his butt to prove they exist.
[/quote]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Met much success?
[/quote]

Would have if the Alliance had been called for backup on Horizon now wouldn't we have. Unfortunately TIM is hiding the truth from the people who need to know.


[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...

Helping Shepard/Cerberus on Horizon would have established that the Collectors were responsible not Cerberus if nothing else AND taken out an enemy cruiser. Even more the wreckage of the vessel might have proven once and for all that the threat was real. Even if the Council didn't go public with the info, they certainly would have ramped up recruiting and construction of new ships in preparation.[/quote]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Council races are secretly aware of the Reapers. See: Mordin's paper on indoctrination. Plus assume that having Mordin aboard the Normandy was TIM's way of conveying information to the STG. He disclosed nothing really sensitive about Cerberus to you and Mordin (nothing the STG wouldn't already know about via the Shadow Broker or elsewise), but Mordin saw everything you saw, and that means STG is aware of it too. By the way, Mordin approves of TIM's tactic regarding the Collector Cruiser raid.[/quote]

Really? Just what planning are the Council races doing for the invasion? "Reapers, we have dismissed..."

More supposition to deflect what you cannot answer credibly.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 28 janvier 2011 - 02:48 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Really? There was a backup plan if the Normandy got taken out? What pray tell was that? If the Normandy gets taken out the Collectors could turn around and take everyone.

What would've been the backup plan if the entire 5th Fleet arrived to Horizon and was taken out?

Bailyn242 wrote...

Just what planning are the Council races doing for the invasion?

Nothing you need to know of ahead of ME3.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 03:28 .

[Ship.wreck_]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

If the question is arbitrary, why do you bother answering?

Because, arbitrary or not, I think your view is nonsensical.

Your face is nonsensical AND arbitrary! Take that.

That said, machines may argueably be an exception. But for humans and other inteligent biologicals, one can't claim neutrality AND be a good guy. Inaction in the face of evil is evil.

But inaction isn't the case for Cerberus so ammorality isn't even on the table. If we examine the ACTIONS of Cerberus is easy to see that they are decisively less moral than your claim of ammorality ie: evil.

[Bluko]

Well I dunno you tell me...

T.I.M. makes a call

Okay sorry, back to the topic at hand folks. But yeah I would not trust him.

[InvincibleHero]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

If the question is arbitrary, why do you bother answering?

Because, arbitrary or not, I think your view is nonsensical.

Your face is nonsensical AND arbitrary! Take that.

That said, machines may argueably be an exception. But for humans and other inteligent biologicals, one can't claim neutrality AND be a good guy. Inaction in the face of evil is evil.

But inaction isn't the case for Cerberus so ammorality isn't even on the table. If we examine the ACTIONS of Cerberus is easy to see that they are decisively less moral than your claim of ammorality ie: evil.

No way. Just because someone ignores an injustice because they don't want to die doesn't make them evil. Not everyone is cut out to be a hero or martyr. So say your father was witness to one of these evils perpetrated and he was the sole breadwinner and your mon was pregnant. You'd a. be happy he's dead because he tried to do something or b. you'd revile him as an evil worthless person because he did nothing and lived to provide for his family.

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Really? There was a backup plan if the Normandy got taken out? What pray tell was that? If the Normandy gets taken out the Collectors could turn around and take everyone.

What would've been the backup plan if the entire 5th Fleet arrived to Horizon and was taken out?

Bailyn242 wrote...

Just what planning are the Council races doing for the invasion?

Nothing you need to know of ahead of ME3.

How does Fifth Fleet get taken out if they are massed at the Arcturus Relay awaiting the call to go in from the Recon team? I never once said go in blind.

Since I can see from your latest posts that you're not interested in real discussion, we're done here. When you decide to contribute something more than trite ignorance to the debate, we'll get back to the conversation.

[Freeride600]

evil? maybe not. racist and short-sighted, yes. I don't like him, but i don't think he's the devil incarnate.



...well, then again, remember that look when he sees the schematic of the Collector base? that's evility at its purest.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Really? There was a backup plan if the Normandy got taken out? What pray tell was that? If the Normandy gets taken out the Collectors could turn around and take everyone.

What would've been the backup plan if the entire 5th Fleet arrived to Horizon and was taken out?

Bailyn242 wrote...

Just what planning are the Council races doing for the invasion?

Nothing you need to know of ahead of ME3.

How does Fifth Fleet get taken out if they are massed at the Arcturus Relay awaiting the call to go in from the Recon team? I never once said go in blind.

1. I suppose, Arcturus is a long way from Horizon.
2. But nothing says they aren't sitting an wating all the time. In fact the alliance military doctrine implies that some forces are constantly on alert. Their reaction time however is not instantenous.
3. But Horizon, I repeat, was of a low priority to save. Military operations cost money, BTW.
4. And finally the trump card: aletrting the Alliance ahead of time would have possibly given it all away to the Shadow Broker, and, by extension, the Collectors. Same as with the Collector ship mission: operational security comes first.

Let's sum up again: TIM's goal on Horizon wasn't to save Horizon. It was to gather intelligence on the Collectors.

Bailyn242 wrote...

Since I can see from your latest posts that you're not interested in real discussion, we're done here. When you decide to contribute something more than trite ignorance to the debate, we'll get back to the conversation.

Whatever.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
What would've been the backup plan if the entire 5th Fleet arrived to Horizon and was taken out?

The point remains... why the Normandy instead of, say, Jacob and his merry band of expendibles? Then the Normandy could show up second.

1. I suppose, Arcturus is a long way from Horizon.
2. But nothing says they aren't sitting an wating all the time. In fact the alliance military doctrine implies that some forces are constantly on alert. Their reaction time however is not instantenous.
3. But Horizon, I repeat, was of a low priority to save. Military operations cost money, BTW.
4. And finally the trump card: aletrting the Alliance ahead of time would have possibly given it all away to the Shadow Broker, and, by extension, the Collectors. Same as with the Collector ship mission: operational security comes first.

1) They could even have set up just outside the system outside long range detection. They would still be minutes from Horizon tops at FTL.

2) It isn't likely they were on that high an alert, but if they had something to be on the alert for, such as the intel TIM was withholding, it would presumably have some effect on the readiness status, don't you think? You figure it was pure luck they were mobilized and ready for the Citadel battle?

3) The colony might be a low priority to save in and of itself, but you are ignoring important points here.
a) The collectors were abducting people for a reason. Stopping the abductions sooner is thus acting against them above and beyond saving the colony.

For all anyone knew, Horizon might have completed whatever they were up to. If the full population of horizon had been enough to finish the new reaper, then what?

c) Defeating the Collectors at Horizon might have forced them to be more cautious, act slower and less ambitiously, buying time for stronger countermeasures to be put in place.

d) It might have brought the Alliance on side with Cerberus, given there is a common threat.

Let's sum up again: TIM's goal on Horizon wasn't to save Horizon. It was to gather intelligence on the Collectors.

I agree saving Horizon in and of itself wasn't that important. I disagree that the secondary objectives stated above are minor or to be overlooked. This goes back to my charge that TIM is greedy and places humanity at additional risk just so he can be in a better position.

Whatever.

When you start saying things like 'Nothing you need to know ahead of ME3', as if you are the one writing it, it really does come across as trolling. Fair game to post speculation as speculation, but don't talk down to people as if your speculation is fact.

[General User]

The Illusive Man is a bad leader, notably in two areas: people skills and dedication to the cause. 
 
While he most certainly is able to estimate and evaluate people’s skills and potential with uncanny accuracy, he still sees them as tools to be used. This not only prevents him from accessing the true potential of those around him (Freedoms Progress, Horizon, Collector Cruiser), but creates dangerous blind spots in predicting how his “tools” will react and perform (Miranda).
 
The whole Grayson episode is the best case-in-point, but not the only one, proving that TIM is unwilling to subvert even his most petty personal concerns, let alone his broader racial/political agenda for the sake of defeating the Reapers. He is not dedicated to defeating the Reapers, not totally.
 
So, evil or not, The Illusive Man is not suitable for a leadership role, but could be incredibly useful as an advisor.

Modifié par General User, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:36 .

[General User]

Good things Cerberus has done (non-Shepard related, fait accompli):
 
1)      Cleared out geth strongholds.
                                                                      …
 
                                                              Help needed.

Modifié par General User, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:36 .

[LightningSamus]

Evil is not the word i'd use but surley not a good guy, i just don't trust him and think he wants humans to rule the galaxy he doesn't care about other races.

[Dean_the_Young]

Suffice to say, I generally disagree with General User on almost every point of his analysis.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
What would've been the backup plan if the entire 5th Fleet arrived to Horizon and was taken out?

The point remains... why the Normandy instead of, say, Jacob and his merry band of expendibles? Then the Normandy could show up second.

Why not? Shepard is ultimately expendable too, but has got the highest survivability rate against lowest odds. Besides, TIM has confirmed that the Collectors apparently changed their mind after blowing up the first Normandy and now want Shepard alive, so that even hightens Shepard's chances. And getting Shepard killed (for good, with a good headshot) would be a slap to the face of Mr. Harbinger. IDK, if TIM finally figured out the reason why that is so, is it just a fetish with a "superior genetic code", or the supposed Reaper-kill score, but the fact is, TIM has no other specific interest in Shepard other than "symbol of Humanity" (which Shepard can very well remain even being dead), and the Collector/Reaper specific interest in Shepard.

If TIM didn't played the ball by honoring his "promise" to send Shepard in at "high noon, Friday", he'd lose the confidence of the Collectors. Confidence not in him directly, but in the Shadow Broker, who was in his pocket ever since Liara delivered that flash drive to Cerberus.

Moiaussi wrote...

a) The collectors were abducting people for a reason. Stopping the abductions sooner is thus acting against them above and beyond saving the colony.

For all anyone knew, Horizon might have completed whatever they were up to. If the full population of horizon had been enough to finish the new reaper, then what?

c) Defeating the Collectors at Horizon might have forced them to be more cautious, act slower and less ambitiously, buying time for stronger countermeasures to be put in place.

d) It might have brought the Alliance on side with Cerberus, given there is a common threat.

What's about the trump card, the operational security? Tipping off the Collectors by alerting the Alliance that the coming tip-off about Shepard on Horizon was a ruse, would result in the Collectors' not arriving at the very best. (Which would result in Admiral Hackett saying: "Lol, Old Jack Harper's gettin' old.") At worst it could result in disaster and annihilation of the entire Alliance task force. How may times does this have to be repeated until it sinks in the heads of paragons? The Indians can beat the Cavalry once in a while even in the movies!!!

Now to your points:

a) Or a more decisive local defeat may provoke them into a starting a decisive total war, of which nobody would have had any idea if the Collector Ship was burnt up. This goes also to ©, although TIM said that he did expect them to become more cautious even after the Collector Ship was just scared off.

Sh*t happens. However, assuming that sh*t is going to happen every time you calculate the odds is counter to the very idea of calculating the odds. Throughout history (our species' experience) it's been proven on many occasions that calculating the odds is preferable to treating every engagement as a last stand. Wars that have come to the last stand are rarely won anyway.

d) Given that Cerberus is close enough to the Alliance to have a black-op-ish secondary objective to bring the Horizon dissenters to their knees and begging to be annexed by the Alliance, I believe it worked out just as planned. If Horizon didn't really suffer, the colonists would have just dismissed the claims that the threat had been real, and if there even had been any, it was because the Alliance drew the bad guys' attention to them. So the Alliance would have been welcome to go back where it crawled out of and take all the troubles with it. That's how the anarchists think anyway.

Moiaussi wrote...

Let's sum up again: TIM's goal on Horizon wasn't to save Horizon. It was to gather intelligence on the Collectors.

I agree saving Horizon in and of itself wasn't that important. I disagree that the secondary objectives stated above are minor or to be overlooked. This goes back to my charge that TIM is greedy and places humanity at additional risk just so he can be in a better position.

TIM is a "philosopher-tyrant" type of guy. If you get the reference, you know how old this dispute is, and that it can be resolved only through political practice. Political practice in the ME universe is that TIM does have a lot of power, and like it or not, he does influence the direction where the mankind is developing, which means that his claim that Cerberus is Humanity, not so far-fetched as many would like to believe.

Moiaussi wrote...

When you start saying things like 'Nothing you need to know ahead of ME3', as if you are the one writing it, it really does come across as trolling. Fair game to post speculation as speculation, but don't talk down to people as if your speculation is fact.

I don't treat my posts as fact. If you, or anyone do, that's your or anyone's problem, not mine.
In my opinion, that's a hard fact.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 05:38 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why not? Shepard is ultimately expendable too, but has got the highest survivability rate against lowest odds. Besides, TIM has confirmed that the Collectors apparently changed their mind after blowing up the first Normandy and now want Shepard alive, so that even hightens Shepard's chances. And getting Shepard killed (for good, with a good headshot) would be a slap to the face of Mr. Harbinger. IDK, if TIM finally figured out the reason why that is so, is it just a fetish with a "superior genetic code", or the supposed Reaper-kill score, but the fact is, TIM has no other specific interest in Shepard other than "symbol of Humanity" (which Shepard can very well remain even being dead), and the Collector/Reaper specific interest in Shepard.

If TIM didn't played the ball by honoring his "promise" to send Shepard in at "high noon, Friday", he'd lose the confidence of the Collectors. Confidence not in him directly, but in the Shadow Broker, who was in his pocket ever since Liara delivered that flash drive to Cerberus.

Actually, so has the Arcturus fleet. They held their own against the Turians, well enough to make the Turian Councellor vote on behalf of humanity as to ending the war. They also acquitted themselves well in the Citadel battle.

Your arguement for the fleet not being alerted was the risk of them being wiped out. Shepard cost as much as a cruiser personally, and so did the Normandy. Two cruisers could easily have been enough to take out the Collector vessel rather than merely chase it off.

What's about the trump card, the operational security? Tipping off the Collectors by alerting the Alliance that the coming tip-off about Shepard on Horizon was a ruse, would result in the Collectors' not arriving at the very best. (Which would result in Admiral Hackett saying: "Lol, Old Jack Harper's gettin' old.") At worst it could result in disaster and annihilation of the entire Alliance task force. How may times does this have to be repeated until it sinks in the heads of paragons? The Indians can beat the Cavalry once in a while even in the movies!!!

Now to your points:

a) Or a more decisive local defeat may provoke them into a starting a decisive total war, of which nobody would have had any idea if the Collector Ship was burnt up. This goes also to ©, although TIM said that he did expect them to become more cautious even after the Collector Ship was just scared off.

Sh*t happens. However, assuming that sh*t is going to happen every time you calculate the odds is counter to the very idea of calculating the odds. Throughout history (our species' experience) it's been proven on many occasions that calculating the odds is preferable to treating every engagement as a last stand. Wars that have come to the last stand are rarely won anyway.

d) Given that Cerberus is close enough to the Alliance to have a black-op-ish secondary objective to bring the Horizon dissenters to their knees and begging to be annexed by the Alliance, I believe it worked out just as planned. If Horizon didn't really suffer, the colonists would have just dismissed the claims that the threat had been real, and if there even had been any, it was because the Alliance drew the bad guys' attention to them. So the Alliance would have been welcome to go back where it crawled out of and take all the troubles with it. That's how the anarchists think anyway.

Keeping the reserves in reserve makes some sense IF you are not in a battle that matters. He had no way of knowing that. Moreover, the Alliance wouldn't have needed to commit the entire fleet. They could have held most of their own ships in reserve. Besides, what would the collectors have done if any one of the merc bands in the region (you know, the ones the Council were paranoid of ending up in a war with?) simply engaged on their own?

You seem to be saying that noone should ever fire a shot 'just in case', and even though the enemy is already firing. That is lousy war strategy.

Regarding (a) and ©, you nearly always want to provoke the enemy to war before they are ready. Waiting until you are fighting on their terms is virually always bad strat. They were already taking out colonies and it did turn out that they only had the one ship.

By direct extension, TIM should have done nothing too. What if activating the gun caused them to escallate? What if Shepard still being alive caused them to escallate? What if simply investigating them at all caused them to escallate? Appearantly the Alliance are the only ones who could trigger escallation? Cerberus's actions couldn't?

He made sure that if he was wrong, everyone pays. He didn't hedge his bets on the safety of humanity at all, only on Cerberus' chances of advancement. After all, if he fails, who cares about humanity right? They obviously don't deserve to live if he fails.

d) Because of the lack of intel shared, the colony now sees the Alliance as too inept to set up one of their own guns, and still lost large numbers of their friends and fellow colonists because all that was sent to deal with the attack was a single squad, which would have failed if the Alliance hadn't brought the gun independantly.

That doesn't sound like the set up for the colony 'begging to be annexed.' Why wouldn't they look to Omega or other local fleets? Hire mercs to defend them just as former roman provinces started paying 'barbarians' instead of legionares? Space is dangerous. They knew that. The Terminus systems are well known for being dangerous.

Appearantly they don't count as 'humanity' though since they aren't toeing the party line? Again, who, precisely, is TIM advocating for? Humanity? Or just humans who support him?

TIM is a "philosopher-tyrant" type of guy. If you get the reference, you know how old this dispute is, and that it can be resolved only through political practice. Political practice in the ME universe is that TIM does have a lot of power, and like it or not, he does influence the direction where the mankind is developing, which means that his claim that Cerberus is Humanity, not so far-fetched as many would like to believe.

Pretty much every tyrant is a philosopher, though.. they all rationalize their actions. That TIM has power isn't in question. The question is 'is he evil?' The related question is 'how does he use his power?'

Saying he has power does nothing to prove that he is using it wisely, or for the benefit of humanity as he claims. And affecting humanty, regardless of to how great an extent, does not make him 'humanity.' That is like saying that a cattleman is cattle.

I don't treat my posts as fact. If you, or anyone do, that's your or anyone's problem, not mine.
In my opinion, that's a hard fact.

Its presentation and it does sometimes come across as if you do. I can be just as bad in my own way, mind

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

Your arguement for the fleet not being alerted was the risk of them being wiped out. Shepard cost as much as a cruiser personally, and so did the Normandy. Two cruisers could easily have been enough to take out the Collector vessel rather than merely chase it off.
[/quote]
Oh, my.

One last time, the objective wasn't to take the Collector Cruiser down. The (primary) objective was to check out if the Collectors are really that attracted to Shepard and test (for the first time ever) their combat capabilities, and (secondary) to punish the Horizon seditionists.

And TIM probably had no means of knowing that there was only be one wussy Collector Cruiser. He had to assume that it may be a dozed of mighty Reaper-grade Collector Cruisers. In which case Shepard wouldn't be of course able to scare them off and had to disengage and request extraction by the Normandy.

Even now there remains ground for speculation that there possibly are more of Collector Cruisers.

Breaking the operational security by prematurally alerting the Alliance couls lead to (a) Collectors not coming at all, or ( Collectors coming en masse, in two or three waves and annihilating the Alliance task force.

Upgrading the operation's status from intelligence to all-out warfare is contrary to everything in the military strategy, because it violate the prime maxim: "Learn your enemy".


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

Keeping the reserves in reserve makes some sense IF you are not in a battle that matters.
[/quote]
Keeping the reserves in reserve makes sense in any kind of battle, becasue the reserves are to be kept in reserve until you are beginning to (a) win the battle and it's time to crush the enemy, or ( lose the battle and need to hold the line or provide cover for your withdrawing troops. However, if you think that (a) is the case you still have to think twice before committing you reserves, since your enemy might be performing a basic ruse of faking a retreat and sucking your reserves in, only to make a short work of them on some carefully prepared killing ground.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

He had no way of knowing that. Moreover, the Alliance wouldn't have needed to commit the entire fleet.
[/quote]
Right, TIM had no way of knowing that it was the last stand even if it were, so that's where he had to hope it wasn't. You have to hope every time when you are dealing with an enemy you know little of. But making ill though-out decisions just in case it's a last stand, isn't going to turn the tide of war.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

They could have held most of their own ships in reserve.
[/quote]
That's what they did. The onlys ship committed to the mission was a best-equipped privately owned craft.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

Besides, what would the collectors have done if any one of the merc bands in the region (you know, the ones the Council were paranoid of ending up in a war with?) simply engaged on their own?
[/quote]
Shot them down, to seeker-swarm and huskify.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

You seem to be saying that noone should ever fire a shot 'just in case', and even though the enemy is already firing. That is lousy war strategy.
[/quote]
Firing shots works both ways. When the enemy is of equal (or higher) tech level as you, firing a shot is more likely than not to get you killed.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

Regarding (a) and ©, you nearly always want to provoke the enemy to war before they are ready. Waiting until you are fighting on their terms is virually always bad strat. They were already taking out colonies and it did turn out that they only had the one ship.
[/quote]
It didn't turn out even now, and you most likely have no means to determine it for sure, if you blew up the C-Base.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

By direct extension, TIM should have done nothing too. What if activating the gun caused them to escallate? What if Shepard still being alive caused them to escallate? What if simply investigating them at all caused them to escallate? Appearantly the Alliance are the only ones who could trigger escallation? Cerberus's actions couldn't?
[/quote]
Hey, you are being ridiculous again. How is my assetion that "it was to early for decisive action" translate into "no action must ever be taken"?


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

He made sure that if he was wrong, everyone pays. He didn't hedge his bets on the safety of humanity at all, only on Cerberus' chances of advancement. After all, if he fails, who cares about humanity right? They obviously don't deserve to live if he fails.
[/quote]
Again, you here are assuming that TIM had knowledge which you think you have now, after beating the game. Even so, you're very selective while assusming which meta-game knowledge TIM had, and which he didn't (like, the Baby Reaper was far from complete...). He couldn't know for sure either way, so he had to go further than a chessmaster and work with probabilities.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

d) Because of the lack of intel shared, the colony now sees the Alliance as too inept to set up one of their own guns, and still lost large numbers of their friends and fellow colonists because all that was sent to deal with the attack was a single squad, which would have failed if the Alliance hadn't brought the gun independantly.
[/quote]
Half the colony was saved thanks to the guns, which the colony wasn't very fond of, until the sh*t hit the fan. In fact they weren't ready because the colony didn't prioritize them, when TIM sabotaged the communications. And they were on horizon becasue they didn't want to be [airquotes]protected[/airquotes] by the Allaince in the first place, so, it's their own damn fault and they have nobody to blame for it but themselves. The Alliance will come as saviors in the end, with all the "investigation" and "humanitarian aid" stuff in the wake of the attack.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

That doesn't sound like the set up for the colony 'begging to be annexed.' Why wouldn't they look to Omega or other local fleets? Hire mercs to defend them just as former roman provinces started paying 'barbarians' instead of legionares? Space is dangerous. They knew that. The Terminus systems are well known for being dangerous.
[/quote]
They thought that the Alliance was nothing but trouble. Perhaps, they were righ, but they forgot that there can be even bigger trouble. And now, with half of them saved from such a bigger trouble by the Alliance, and getting aided and comforted by the Alliance... A merc band that'd turn them into slaves shortly is all they need. Well, you bet.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

Appearantly they don't count as 'humanity' though since they aren't toeing the party line? Again, who, precisely, is TIM advocating for? Humanity? Or just humans who support him?
[/quote]
That's the problem with party lines. You're either with us, or against us. Nobody ever disputed that TIM's vision of Humanity is quite special, anyway. The conflict is not between TIM's words and actions, but between his ideolgy and yours.


[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

Pretty much every tyrant is a philosopher, though.. they all rationalize their actions. That TIM has power isn't in question. The question is 'is he evil?' The related question is 'how does he use his power?'
[/quote]
And that's why it is unsurprising the history was moved forward by tyrants. Even though most of them were defeated in the end, some of them "posthumosly"... But while resisting the them, the rest of the world couldn't help but accept in part their methods and, more importantly their programme. Something about "fighting the monsters" maybe...

Is TIM evil? To some liberal/anarchist folks, yes. To other folks? Not so much. Ultimately he will be either universally known as evil, or vindicated, depending on who gets to write the history books.

How does TIM use his power? To shape the future of the Mankind, and the Galaxy. And, like it or not, it is being shaped by him. (Oh, that's aside from trying to assure that the Galaxy has any future...)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:04 .

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Suffice to say, I generally disagree with General User on almost every point of his analysis.

I couldn’t call myself a fanatic it I didn’t question the dedication of EVERYONE on the team! 
 
Victor Cachat would never have it!

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Oh, my.

One last time, the objective wasn't to take the Collector Cruiser down. The (primary) objective was to check out if the Collectors are really that attracted to Shepard and test (for the first time ever) their combat capabilities, and (secondary) to punish the Horizon seditionists.

And TIM probably had no means of knowing that there was only be one wussy Collector Cruiser. He had to assume that it may be a dozed of mighty Reaper-grade Collector Cruisers. In which case Shepard wouldn't be of course able to scare them off and had to disengage and request extraction by the Normandy.[/quote]

Those are your objectives and possibly TIM's, but that doesn't make them humanity's objectives, nor the best course of action.

You also seem to maintain that "Humanity" doesn't actually mean "Humanity", but means "Humanity willing to follow TIM (or at least the Alliance)"

[quote]Even now there remains ground for speculation that there possibly are more of Collector Cruisers.

Breaking the operational security by prematurally alerting the Alliance couls lead to (a) Collectors not coming at all, or ( Collectors coming en masse, in two or three waves and annihilating the Alliance task force.

Upgrading the operation's status from intelligence to all-out warfare is contrary to everything in the military strategy, because it violate the prime maxim: "Learn your enemy".[/quote]

That maxim doesn't extend to a complete lack of defence. "Operational security" ... listen to yourself. The strength of the Alliance fleet is known. The citadel battle is well documented. As for 'learning your enemy', how much did they actually learn? They already had the counter to the seekers and revealed having that knowledge when they landed. They were lucky the Collectors hadn't adjusted the seekers to compensate by the time of the base mission.

They revealed more of their capabilities than any naval engagement would have.

[quote]Keeping the reserves in reserve makes sense in any kind of battle, becasue the reserves are to be kept in reserve until you are beginning to (a) win the battle and it's time to crush the enemy, or ( lose the battle and need to hold the line or provide cover for your withdrawing troops. However, if you think that (a) is the case you still have to think twice before committing you reserves, since your enemy might be performing a basic ruse of faking a retreat and sucking your reserves in, only to make a short work of them on some carefully prepared killing ground.[/quote]

Pretty sure the Collectors running off with a large chunk of Horizon's population counts as 'losing the battle.,' and the collectors were allowed to keep them. The Collectors got a partial victory.


[quote]Right, TIM had no way of knowing that it was the last stand even if it were, so that's where he had to hope it wasn't. You have to hope every time when you are dealing with an enemy you know little of. But making ill though-out decisions just in case it's a last stand, isn't going to turn the tide of war.[/quote]

The last time the Reapers acted, it as an all or nothing attack that if not stopped would have been a total loss for Humanity, not to mention everyone else, including Cerberus. Why assume otherwise now? What new information did they actually learn that wouldn't also have been learned by shooting down the ship?

They might have been able to disable and capture it with sufficient naval support. Even shooting it down they wouldn't have lost anything. They didn't even get the IFF from that ship.


[quote]That's what they did. The onlys ship committed to the mission was a best-equipped privately owned craft.[/quote]

You know what I meant. I meant tactical reserve rather than strategic. The main body of the fleet could have been on standby, nearby but out of range. If the ship was too tough (reaper level), they could have simply disengaged. Note that is true even if Shep was sent in per TIM's plan.

[quote]Shot them down, to seeker-swarm and huskify.[/quote]

With what? A non-upgraded SR-2 was enough to defeat them. You are saying the Terminus systems have no more firepower than a heavy frigate? Pardon?


[quote]Firing shots works both ways. When the enemy is of equal (or higher) tech level as you, firing a shot is more likely than not to get you killed.[/quote]

I repeats, a heavy frigate blew it up. Upgraded to cruiser shields and firepower, that heavy frigate was able to do so with no internal damage. OMG, War is risky! Nice thought, but they are already firing. Should we start the evac of humanity now?


[quote]It didn't turn out even now, and you most likely have no means to determine it for sure, if you blew up the C-Base.[/quote]

Somewhere or other there is supposedly a dev clip, but regardless, if there were more ships then they could have been taken out too. They already knew after Horizon that they were vulnerable to a single ground based pop-gun. According to your logic, Shepard made the wrong move at Horizon, and should have run away as soon as he saw the enemy ship. At the very least, he shouldn't have armed the cannon, because you consider shooting at the enemy to be some sort of bad decision. I mean... he might have gotten hurt!


[quote]Hey, you are being ridiculous again. How is my assetion that "it was to early for decisive action" translate into "no action must ever be taken"?[/quote]

Taking out a single enemy vessel with a small task force of ships is no more nor less 'decisive' than attempting to do exactly the same with a ground based cannon. They didn't need to commit the enture Alliance navy.

[quote]Again, you here are assuming that TIM had knowledge which you think you have now, after beating the game. Even so, you're very selective while assusming which meta-game knowledge TIM had, and which he didn't (like, the Baby Reaper was far from complete...). He couldn't know for sure either way, so he had to go further than a chessmaster and work with probabilities.[/quote]

No I am not. If I was, I would be arguing that TIM's plan worked because he happened to guess right and all went well in the end. My point was that if for whatever reason things hadn't gone well, if, for example, that was a more important battle than TIM estimated, then humanity would have paid the price.

[quote]Half the colony was saved thanks to the guns, which the colony wasn't very fond of, until the sh*t hit the fan. In fact they weren't ready because the colony didn't prioritize them, when TIM sabotaged the communications. And they were on horizon becasue they didn't want to be [airquotes]protected[/airquotes] by the Allaince in the first place, so, it's their own damn fault and they have nobody to blame for it but themselves. The Alliance will come as saviors in the end, with all the "investigation" and "humanitarian aid" stuff in the wake of the attack.[/quote]

IIRC, the guns were being calibrated by the Alliance. One of the colonists complains about how they were unable to get their own guns operational. What were the Alliance doing that was 'higher quality?' Investigations, especially on colony worlds almost never generate good feelings regarding a distant government.

[quote]They thought that the Alliance was nothing but trouble. Perhaps, they were righ, but they forgot that there can be even bigger trouble. And now, with half of them saved from such a bigger trouble by the Alliance, and getting aided and comforted by the Alliance... A merc band that'd turn them into slaves shortly is all they need. Well, you bet.[/quote]

1) There is sentiment that the attack only happened because the Alliance was therre, which is actually at least partially true.

2) Not all the merc bands are like that. They are still mercenaries, after all. Pillaging colonies means only a one shot influx and discourages more colonies. Protecting them for a fee, even if and especially if you are really only protecting them from your mercs is much more lucrative.


[quote]That's the problem with party lines. You're either with us, or against us. Nobody ever disputed that TIM's vision of Humanity is quite special, anyway. The conflict is not between TIM's words and actions, but between his ideolgy and yours.[/quote]

But that isn't advocating for humanity. It is only advocating for Cerberus.


[quote]And that's why it is unsurprising the history was moved forward by tyrants. Even though most of them were defeated in the end, some of them "posthumosly"... But while resisting the them, the rest of the world couldn't help but accept in part their methods and, more importantly their programme. Something about "fighting the monsters" maybe...

Is TIM evil? To some liberal/anarchist folks, yes. To other folks? Not so much. Ultimately he will be either universally known as evil, or vindicated, depending on who gets to write the history books.

How does TIM use his power? To shape the future of the Mankind, and the Galaxy. And, like it or not, it is being shaped by him. (Oh, that's aside from trying to assure that the Galaxy has any future...)[/quote]

Some of it moved forward because of tyrants, but other parts because of reformers, and others because of pacifists. You seem to be falling back on the dogma that because evil people have a place in the world, and can indirectly inspire good, that they aren't really evil. The problem with that theory is, of course, that if they aren't really evil, then there is no need to oppose them and the good that occasionally comes out of opposing their evil is never realized.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

That's the problem with party lines. You're either with us, or against us. Nobody ever disputed that TIM's vision of Humanity is quite special, anyway. The conflict is not between TIM's words and actions, but between his ideolgy and yours.

But that isn't advocating for humanity. It is only advocating for Cerberus.

Like I said, you are opposed to Cerberus on ideological level, so discussing TIM's actions with you is pointless, since they are only justified by the Cerberus' goals.

Moiaussi wrote...

Some of it moved forward because of tyrants, but other parts because of reformers, and others because of pacifists. You seem to be falling back on the dogma that because evil people have a place in the world, and can indirectly inspire good, that they aren't really evil. The problem with that theory is, of course, that if they aren't really evil, then there is no need to oppose them and the good that occasionally comes out of opposing their evil is never realized.

"Reformer" is just a tyrant who managed to successfully crush all the opposition, and whose "evil deeds" never came to light. And the "good" does not come from opposing the tyrants' "evil". It comes from borrowing a portion of tyrants' "evil" to oppose them, then claiming that it's "good" (and as such could never belong to a tyrant, which with the tyrants gone can never be proven wrong). So yeah, opposing a tyrant often only diminishes the good that could come out of his rule... Tyrants are different of course. Some of them aren't "philosophers", or aren't good ones. And the "good" is a matter of opinion. Which is the source of the inevitable opposition to any tyrant, as well is the source of any reform.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:21 .

[Inverness Moon]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

If the question is arbitrary, why do you bother answering?

Because, arbitrary or not, I think your view is nonsensical.

Your face is nonsensical AND arbitrary! Take that.

*sad head-flap configuration*

Ship.wreck wrote...

That said, machines may argueably be an exception. But for humans and other inteligent biologicals, one can't claim neutrality AND be a good guy. Inaction in the face of evil is evil.

But inaction isn't the case for Cerberus so ammorality isn't even on the table. If we examine the ACTIONS of Cerberus is easy to see that they are decisively less moral than your claim of ammorality ie: evil.

Saying that machines may possibly be an exception sounds like moral relativism to me. You can't have it both ways.

And if we examine the actions of Cerberus we'll find that, next to Shepard, they've made the greatest contribution to saving the galaxy from the reapers. In the face of that, claiming that they're evil is silly and expresses the inherent problem with your method of judgement.

General User wrote...

Good things Cerberus has done (non-Shepard related, fait accompli):

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Cerberus's actions aren't merely numbers to be counted. Each action needs to be judge based on its scale and what it accomplished. No matter how many things you gather that Cerberus done that you claim are bad, reviving Shepard did more good than all of that combined in my opinion.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:37 .

[Xilizhra]

And if we examine the actions of Cerberus we'll find that, next to Shepard, they've made the greatest contribution to saving the galaxy from the reapers. In the face of that, claiming that they're evil is silly and expresses the inherent problem with your method of judgement.

Stalin made the greatest contribution to defeating the ****s. And yet.