965 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

And if we examine the actions of Cerberus we'll find that, next to Shepard, they've made the greatest contribution to saving the galaxy from the reapers. In the face of that, claiming that they're evil is silly and expresses the inherent problem with your method of judgement.

Stalin made the greatest contribution to defeating the ****s. And yet.

And yet people think he was a bad guy, because he was betrayed and smeared by his own successors, who, in turn, lost the Cold War. The Chinese still think he was Mao's bro, though.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 janvier 2011 - 01:03 .

[Xilizhra]

So he didn't kill millions of people himself, IRL?

[General User]

Inverness Moon wrote...

General User wrote...
Good things Cerberus has done (non-Shepard related, fait accompli):

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Cerberus's actions aren't merely numbers to be counted. Each action needs to be judge based on its scale and what it accomplished. No matter how many things you gather that Cerberus done that you claim are bad, reviving Shepard did more good than all of that combined in my opinion.

So, what you're saying is... the count still stands at 1.

Seriously, anyone, anything.  Slaves liberated.  Pirates taken down.  Hospitals funded.  Puppies played fetch with.

My point is, that if Cerberus really is what it claims, ie devoted to defending and advancing the cause of humans and human interests, there should be at least few of their operations that fall indisputably into the "good guys" column apart from Shepard.  

Modifié par General User, 29 janvier 2011 - 01:15 .

[Vaenier]

General User wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

General User wrote...
Good things Cerberus has done (non-Shepard related, fait accompli):

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Cerberus's actions aren't merely numbers to be counted. Each action needs to be judge based on its scale and what it accomplished. No matter how many things you gather that Cerberus done that you claim are bad, reviving Shepard did more good than all of that combined in my opinion.

So, what you're saying is... the count still stands at 1.

Seriously, anyone, anything.  Slaves liberated.  Pirates taken down.  Hospitals funded.  Puppies played fetch with.

My point is, that if Cerberus really is what it claims, ie devoted to defending and advancing the cause of humans and human interests, there should be at least few of their operations that fall indisputably into the "good guys" column.  

You never learn of their successes. Part of being a success is being hidden. They work behind the scens, if it was known they helped, their aid would be undone. You will only ever experience their fails as Bioware uses stupidity to make more targets to shoot.

[General User]

Vaenier wrote...

General User wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

General User wrote...
Good things Cerberus has done (non-Shepard related, fait accompli):

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Cerberus's actions aren't merely numbers to be counted. Each action needs to be judge based on its scale and what it accomplished. No matter how many things you gather that Cerberus done that you claim are bad, reviving Shepard did more good than all of that combined in my opinion.

So, what you're saying is... the count still stands at 1.

Seriously, anyone, anything.  Slaves liberated.  Pirates taken down.  Hospitals funded.  Puppies played fetch with.

My point is, that if Cerberus really is what it claims, ie devoted to defending and advancing the cause of humans and human interests, there should be at least few of their operations that fall indisputably into the "good guys" column.

You never learn of their successes. Part of being a success is being hidden. They work behind the scens, if it was known they helped, their aid would be undone. You will only ever experience their fails as Bioware uses stupidity to make more targets to shoot.

And the count remains at 1.
 
There are reasons to hide your successes and reasons to share them. Cerberus has plenty of both. Why only choose the former?

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

So he didn't kill millions of people himself, IRL?

http://new.wavlist.c...0/tl-killed.wav

[Uriel7122]

He is the only one trying to save humanity but he goes to far sometimes! It is good for Shepard to be untrusting and to question him!

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So he didn't kill millions of people himself, IRL?

http://new.wavlist.c...0/tl-killed.wav

That's your defence of Stalin in the context of this discussion? If you aren't even trying anymore, just stop responding.... seriously....

[Arijharn]

General User wrote...

There are reasons to hide your successes and reasons to share them. Cerberus has plenty of both. Why only choose the former?

Uh, because it's a secret organisation? It'd be as stupid as if the CIA suddenly published all of it's actions on foreign soil in the past 5 years.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

General User wrote...

There are reasons to hide your successes and reasons to share them. Cerberus has plenty of both. Why only choose the former?

Uh, because it's a secret organisation? It'd be as stupid as if the CIA suddenly published all of it's actions on foreign soil in the past 5 years.

That is the official story, but everyone and their pet pyak seems to know about it.

[Inverness Moon]

General User wrote...

So, what you're saying is... the count still stands at 1.

What I'm saying is the count is irrelevant. And as a result, your assertion meaningless.

This number says nothing about the good and bad that has come from what Cerberus has done.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 29 janvier 2011 - 09:15 .

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...

That is the official story, but everyone and their pet pyak seems to know about it.

Personally, I think that's all done for the sake of keeping the story moving and not getting bogged down in pointless crap.

Shepard: I'm here to pick up Jack.
Warden Kuril: Yes... wait, who are you again?
Shephard: ...Commander Shephard... Cerberus-
Warden Kuril:What?
Shephard:Cerberus... as in the 3 headed dog. Human paramilitary organisation? Generally considered to be bad guys.
Kuril: All humans are bad guys.
Shephard:... Okay. Moving along. Cerberus told me they have already paid, it's just going through the checking accounts.
Kuril: Ah yes... checking accounts. I had wondered what all that money was for. Wondering for the sake of curiousity of course, and whether it would 'cost' me... you know?
Shephard:No. I Don't. Furthermore, I don't really care. Can I have my prisoner now please?

Now... can you imagine this sort of conversation with pretty much anyone who talks to you about Cerberus who aren't major players? (Actually, I can't really think of any of the top of my head. Cerberus isn't that well known to the 'plebians', and with Commander Shephard well, you don't really talk to normal people anyway.)

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

Now... can you imagine this sort of conversation with pretty much anyone who talks to you about Cerberus who aren't major players? (Actually, I can't really think of any of the top of my head. Cerberus isn't that well known to the 'plebians', and with Commander Shephard well, you don't really talk to normal people anyway.)

Why would it be neccessary to tell anyone who you are with at all? You are the one with the credits and the codewords.

If Cerberus was an actual secretive secret organization, Shepard would have picked up Jack via some front organization set up just for that operation. Some of Jack's enemies really wanted to see her.. or perhaps (but less likely) some of her old crew.

[Arijharn]

Like I said, for simple reasons of keeping the game plot moving forward without resorting to minutiae bs.



Look, us being here on this forum probably makes it safe for me to assume that people here generally like the storyline of the game and its settings. We know what Cerberus does and that it has front corporations, but if half way through the narrative the game starts calling us Cord-Hislop Aerospace employee's, what do you think of the chances of it being confusing to the new or casual players will be? Would you be willing to take that chance? Me personally? no. Why? Because I'm not making the game just to cater to the 'old breed.'

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

General User wrote...

There are reasons to hide your successes and reasons to share them. Cerberus has plenty of both. Why only choose the former?

Uh, because it's a secret organisation? It'd be as stupid as if the CIA suddenly published all of it's actions on foreign soil in the past 5 years.

Still at 1.
 
Cerberus is a secret organization you’re a senior member of, an organization that Miranda has top-level access to, and an organization where any limits on TIM’s control can only be thought of as self-imposed.
 
And the CIA publicizes their “good guy” stories all the time! I can’t count the number of time I’ve read of CIA drones or strike teams taking out terrorists.
 
That’s the sort of thing I’m looking for with regards to Cerberus. Show me one, just one, batarian warlord who was sitting fat and happy until a Cerberus team puts a bullet in his skull and liberates his slaves.  Anything like that.

[General User]

Inverness Moon wrote...

General User wrote...

So, what you're saying is... the count still stands at 1.

What I'm saying is the count is irrelevant. And as a result, your assertion meaningless.

This number says nothing about the good and bad that has come from what Cerberus has done.

Leaving it at 1
 
The number isn't meant to be some sort of score card to determine if Cerberus is ultimately a Child of Light or a Child of Darkness.  Rather is meant to show that Cerberus isn't what The Illusive Man claims, thus any trust placed in them must be strictly and severly limited.

The question of whether or not you can trust the people around you is far from irrelevant, especially in TIM’s case where he is specifically asking you to place a phenomenal level of trust in him. 
 
When that trust is based on nothing besides a belief in TIM’s ultimate interests coincide with yours it reaches the level of absurdity for EVERYONE, even those like me who are broadly sympathetic to Cerberus' stated objectives. You can’t trust TIM’s agenda to align with yours because TIM has not shared with you what his agenda is.

Modifié par General User, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:05 .

[General User]

Good things Cerberus has done (non-Shepard related, fait accompli):
 
1)      Cleared out geth strongholds.
 
2)      Thwarted batarian bioweapon attack on the Citadel Council.

They are out there!

[Dean_the_Young]

Smoothed relations between the Humans and Salarians.



Discredited a biotic-extremist Matriarch, who's views were negative for all non-biotics (including most humans, Turians, Salarians, Krogan, and pretty much every non-naturally biotic species.)



Pushed for improved tenor of relations with the Turian Heirarchy via military cooperation.



Engaged in invaluable, highly successful AI research.



Maintain large numbers of charities, investment groups, and economic support structures enabling and aiding human development.



Maintained superior surveillance of potential human threats than the Alliance.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Smoothed relations between the Humans and Salarians.

The Pope assassination?  Taints any good that may have come from it.  Unless you mean something else, that doesn't count. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Discredited a biotic-extremist Matriarch, who's views were negative for all non-biotics (including most humans, Turians, Salarians, Krogan, and pretty much every non-naturally biotic species.)

Discrediting/marginalizing dangerous people is even more effective than killing them in many cases, always a good thing. 

The count is now 3.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Pushed for improved tenor of relations with the Turian Heirarchy via military cooperation.

I'm looking for actions, not advocacy.  Cerberus and Heirarchy Special Forces team up to take out a Blood Pack base, that sort of thing. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Engaged in invaluable, highly successful AI research.

EDI's value is beyond question, but she was a Shepard/Reaper War-related developement, I want things something that would establish Cerberus' bona fides. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Maintain large numbers of charities, investment groups, and economic support structures enabling and aiding human development.

Using a charity as a front for illegal or immoral acts requires a special flavour of bastard.  Still, the good some of those groups do cannot be denied.  One point for every altruistic organization, even if it is a front, as long as it isn't exclusively a front.  I can only think of one such myself, others welcome. 

The count is now 4.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Maintained superior surveillance of potential human threats than the Alliance.

Only counts if they subsequently neutralized those threats or shared that intelligence allowing others to, as they did with the batarians on the Citadel and the geth, which have already been counted. 

Modifié par General User, 29 janvier 2011 - 03:08 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So he didn't kill millions of people himself, IRL?

http://new.wavlist.c...0/tl-killed.wav

That's your defence of Stalin in the context of this discussion? If you aren't even trying anymore, just stop responding.... seriously....

My "defense of Stalin" is that him being bad is a matter of opinion, and usually not one's own.

Julius Caesar was also responsible for millions of deaths, including quite a few citizens of Rome. However, nowadays he is generally remembed as a great guy, who set up the modern calendar, etc.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 janvier 2011 - 03:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So he didn't kill millions of people himself, IRL?

http://new.wavlist.c...0/tl-killed.wav

That's your defence of Stalin in the context of this discussion? If you aren't even trying anymore, just stop responding.... seriously....

My "defense of Stalin" is that him being bad is a matter of opinion, and usually not ones own.

Julius Caesar was also responsible for millions of deaths, including quite a few citizens of Rome. However, nowadays he is generally remembed as a great guy, who set up the modern calendar, etc.

I'm consistent. Julius Caesar, though his accomplishments may have led to goodness, was personally evil.

[Arijharn]

Since when have we played a 'senior member' of Cerberus? Because Shephard certainly isn't.



Shephard is an 'interesting case' and (s)he is certainly important... but isn't really Cerberus in the classical sense. It makes quite a deal of sense to me at least that any pertinent information about Cerberus would be concealed until (or if) such time Shep decides to join the organisation.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So he didn't kill millions of people himself, IRL?

http://new.wavlist.c...0/tl-killed.wav

That's your defence of Stalin in the context of this discussion? If you aren't even trying anymore, just stop responding.... seriously....

My "defense of Stalin" is that him being bad is a matter of opinion, and usually not ones own.

Julius Caesar was also responsible for millions of deaths, including quite a few citizens of Rome. However, nowadays he is generally remembed as a great guy, who set up the modern calendar, etc.

I'm consistent. Julius Caesar, though his accomplishments may have led to goodness, was personally evil.

I think what he's trying to say is that Stalin is a great man... but not a good one. You can, of course, see the difference right?

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So he didn't kill millions of people himself, IRL?

http://new.wavlist.c...0/tl-killed.wav

That's your defence of Stalin in the context of this discussion? If you aren't even trying anymore, just stop responding.... seriously....

My "defense of Stalin" is that him being bad is a matter of opinion, and usually not one's own.

Julius Caesar was also responsible for millions of deaths, including quite a few citizens of Rome. However, nowadays he is generally remembed as a great guy, who set up the modern calendar, etc.

I'm consistent. Julius Caesar, though his accomplishments may have led to goodness, was personally evil.

I think what he's trying to say is that Stalin is a great man... but not a good one. You can, of course, see the difference right?

I was trying to say exactly what I said. The "good" and "evil" are relative things that vary from one person to another. And in the fullness of time they blur down to near indifference about which was it.

However, the "great accomplishements" remain. That's the meaning behind TIM's belief that history will vindicate him (even though he personally may go down as "evil", or as a myth, and people will doubt his very existence, given his current status). And that's the difference between "evil" TIM, who accomplishments things, and petty Anderson, who strives to stop these accomplishments to do Kahlee Sanders a favor.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 janvier 2011 - 03:55 .

[Alphyn]

Depends on what you consider good or evil.



Obvious things like killing thousands of people for no real reason (science/experiments can be a reason, just a very poor one - unless the person(s) are willing) is an evil act, undoubtedly.