965 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

It's a start.



Though upon reflection, if you really want to discuss the ultimate nature of morality, I have to feel PM would be the best format.

[Arijharn]

General;



While I think that TIM and Cerberus (strange really isn't it? I can't really divorce the two from each other even though they are two separate entities) will dedicate 'all possible resources' to deal with the Reaper's, I don't think that's 'all resources.'



Shephard will be a fairly public figurehead when the Reapers arrive, Cerberus may be hesitant in getting to close (working on the rather optimistic notion that we will win) due to the political heat that will flair up. Even if human dominance was an eventuality, if I was TIM I still wouldn't want to be seen too close to the pitch, if you know what I mean.



I would however trust TIM to pass me as much information as possible about the fruits of Reaper research because of my 'importance' in the effort against the Reapers, and because Cerberus and TIM's survival (and everyone else's) and their plans are threatened in equal parts by the Reapers.



Also, at the long and short of it; Commander Shephard is a soldier. Does he really need progress reports and operational logs (and locations) of various Cerberus efforts, or does he just need results when they arrive?



Slightly more topical; if I was TIM and Asheer_Khan was Commander Shephard, there is no way in hell I'll tell him where my assets are, even if we both agree that the Reapers need to be stopped. I'll be happy to render assistance to Asheer-that-is-Shephard, but I wouldn't be giving him intelligence on my operations. Why? Because Asheer is obviously against me, and more to the point while Asheer (as Shephard) has proven himself as a capable soldier, I plain do not trust his motives (specifically regards to myself and Cerberus) beyond the most obvious.

[blakecra]

No matter what you know the illusive man is manipulative. I sincerly doubt that he just realized at the last minute that there is a way to save the reaper/prothean base instead of destroying it. At first I was a bit overwhelmed by all that the illusive man provided sheperd, but the problem is the illusive man is power hungry. His experiments are a bit crazy and radical. I bet if he aquired the base he would have attempted to build a human reaper that could be controlled. The first time I played I saved the base because of what it could do against the reapers. I never fully trust cerebus or at least the illusive man. Once the war with the reapers were over the illusive man would try to make all the other races inferior to humans. If you play on insane and on the derelict reaper ship its also easy to see how the illusive man would not be able to control what ever he tried to do. (went off on a bit of a tangent though) I bet no matter what happens in number 3 you will have to confront the illusive man. Also researching revear indoctrinationg never seems to have worked out just like in mass effect 1.

[OmegaXI]

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." - from Hamlet , Wm. Shakespeare; Act II, scene ii

[Lewie]

It would be nice to find out finally exactly what part TIM played in your 'comeback'. The hint of admission at the end 'Some would say (what we did to you) was going 'too far' but look what you have accomplished'. How is saving your life 'going too far'?.



I didn't discard you because of the 'potential'.

Don't discard this facility think of the 'potential'

No.

Don't turn your back on me, Shepard.



His disregard for human life has always been paramount why do people think that has changed.

[OmegaXI]

you wanna talk about evil go to google maps and under directions put china and the usa check out step 41 and 92 lmao.

[Moiaussi]

OmegaXI wrote...

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." - from Hamlet , Wm. Shakespeare; Act II, scene ii

And yet Hamlet obviously thought the murder of his father (not to mention the fact Rosencrantz and Guildenstern were sent to kill him) was 'bad' enough to do more than just think about. Not to mention he was chatting them up, playing them for fools and generally keeping them off guard.

[Arijharn]

louise101 wrote...


It would be nice to find out finally exactly what part TIM played in your 'comeback'. The hint of admission at the end 'Some would say (what we did to you) was going 'too far' but look what you have accomplished'. How is saving your life 'going too far'?.

I didn't discard you because of the 'potential'.
Don't discard this facility think of the 'potential'
No.
Don't turn your back on me, Shepard.

His disregard for human life has always been paramount why do people think that has changed.

You don't think there could be ethical considerations to resurrecting someone? Remember; Shephard was 'dead as dead can be.' Lazarus Project, to me at least, didn't sound to be even nearly close to the category as simply performing CPR.

Hell, for all we know, TIM and his group pulled Shephard from heaven just to kick some more ass, but maybe that would be even more ammunition to use against Cerberus. "Damn it, I was chilling with St. Peter and chatting up this hot Angel, and you just had to put me back into my body!"

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

You don't think there could be ethical considerations to resurrecting someone? Remember; Shephard was 'dead as dead can be.' Lazarus Project, to me at least, didn't sound to be even nearly close to the category as simply performing CPR.

Hell, for all we know, TIM and his group pulled Shephard from heaven just to kick some more ass, but maybe that would be even more ammunition to use against Cerberus. "Damn it, I was chilling with St. Peter and chatting up this hot Angel, and you just had to put me back into my body!"

"Kill 16K Geth and what do you get? A replacement body and cerberus pets. Saint Peter don't you call me cause I can't go.... I owe my soul to the next reaper war....."

Of course since Buffy did this theme rather well, I also can't help but think of Shepard for some reason chatting up "Angel," lol.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Since when have we played a 'senior member' of Cerberus? Because Shephard certainly isn't.

Shephard is an 'interesting case' and (s)he is certainly important... but isn't really Cerberus in the classical sense. It makes quite a deal of sense to me at least that any pertinent information about Cerberus would be concealed until (or if) such time Shep decides to join the organisation.

That’s a very sensible attitude to take towards normal operatives, but Shepard is normal is he? The Illusive Mans said it himself, Shepard is unique. Shepard is the point man for the entire anti-Reaper campaign.
 
Given that anti-Reaper techniques can come out of some most disparate places, and assuming stopping the Reapers really is Cerberus’ number one priority, Shepard should have been given immediate top-level access to all Cerberus data and operations. But he wasn’t.
 
Don’t get me wrong! I understand why The Illusive Man did it. I even half-ass agree with him! TIM wasn’t sure he could trust Shepard and was taking steps to protect his organization. An organization that, as Inverness Moon pointed out, has accomplished much good. That’s commendable under most circumstances. 
 
But not here. Here there is a galactic level extinction event headed straight for us and TIM would rather engage in shadow games and pissing contests than do everything in his power to stop it. Or, even worse, TIM legitimately thinks that what he is doing is the best course of action.  I question his dedication and/or his judgement.

I'm sorry: are you honestly lambasting a leader of a organization for not giving full and total access to someone with no guarantee or promise of said revelations not being immediately turned against said organiztion and not used against the common threat (the very reason for cooperation), and then decrying that as bad judgement?

Because I will be forced to say that is a very, very stupid standard for you to hold to anyone. Moronic, even. Completely impractical, definitely.

This was a big day for John Smith. Three months after having been hired as ACME Inc.’s Chief Financial Officer he had finally proven his loyalty to the company and would be allowed to look at the books.

[Dean_the_Young]

Non-equivalent positions.

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...
While I think that TIM and Cerberus (strange really isn't it? I can't really divorce the two from each other even though they are two separate entities) will dedicate 'all possible resources' to deal with the Reaper's, I don't think that's 'all resources.'

That’s largely my point! TIM isn’t using all possible resources. The galaxy’s number one expert on killing Reapers is sittin’ pretty on a Cerberus frigate. And TIM is using him as a trigger man .

Arijharn wrote...
Shephard will be a fairly public figurehead when the Reapers arrive, Cerberus may be hesitant in getting to close (working on the rather optimistic notion that we will win) due to the political heat that will flair up. Even if human dominance was an eventuality, if I was TIM I still wouldn't want to be seen too close to the pitch, if you know what I mean.

There are figureheads, and then there are not-figureheads. How many military leaders have also served as sources of inspiration to their troops and their nations while at the same time planning and executing major campaigns?

Arijharn wrote...
I would however trust TIM to pass me as much information as possible about the fruits of Reaper research because of my 'importance' in the effort against the Reapers, and because Cerberus and TIM's survival (and everyone else's) and their plans are threatened in equal parts by the Reapers.

As would I.  I just don't trust TIM to be able to look past his own pre-existing agenda when deciding what is and is not important.

Arijharn wrote...
Also, at the long and short of it; Commander Shephard is a soldier. Does he really need progress reports and operational logs (and locations) of various Cerberus efforts, or does he just need results when they arrive?

Shepard needs to know the general status and dispositions of Cerberus operations.  Knowing what’s “in the pipeline” and where to get what kinds of support and how much of it will be available are vital pieces of information for a military officer.

Arijharn wrote...
Slightly more topical; if I was TIM and Asheer_Khan was Commander Shephard, there is no way in hell I'll tell him where my assets are, even if we both agree that the Reapers need to be stopped. I'll be happy to render assistance to Asheer-that-is-Shephard, but I wouldn't be giving him intelligence on my operations. Why? Because Asheer is obviously against me, and more to the point while Asheer (as Shephard) has proven himself as a capable soldier, I plain do not trust his motives (specifically regards to myself and Cerberus) beyond the most obvious.

But you didn’t hire anyone besides Shepard. And Shepard isn’t quite so customizable as most of us would like. There is ample precedent for forcing the player to go along with decisions they might not agree with for the sake of advancing the plot.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Non-equivalent positions.

There’s a difference between “top-level” access, and “full and total” access. Take the CFO, he’d wouldn’t necessarily need access to full copies all of ACME Inc.’s personnel files, but he would still need access to their (highly privileged)banking information, since he’s the one paying them.
 
Shepard doesn’t need to know the names cover id’s of every Cerberus operative. But, at a minimum, he does need to be briefed on all ongoing Cerberus operations, and mosdef Shepard needs to be included in the planning stages for actual counter-Reaper operations.

Modifié par General User, 30 janvier 2011 - 01:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Except that he really doesn't.

Shepard doesn't work for Cerberus. This is a stance Shepard repeats multiple times over. Shepard isn't in charge of Cerberus efforts either, any more than Cerberus controls Shepard's own independent efforts.

Shepard and Cerberus work with each other for mutual concerns, not for each other, and in no sense are they joined at the hip. Cerberus gives Shepard resources and information, Shepard leads in tactical operations, but Shepard isn't in charge of handling Cerberus policies and Cerberus isn't dictating how Shepard must act.

Shepard doesn't necessarily trust Cerberus, and TIM doesn't completely trust Shepard (and, given the attitudes of many posters, for very good reason). There is no establishment of trust and mutual-congruance to demand giving Shepard, who's stance can easily be in the area of 'after I kill them, I kill you' to any sort of access past what's necessry in regards to the Collectors.

Shepard, after all, can have a nasty habbit of disagreeing with Cerberus projects, and shutting them down despite what they could do, even if they weren't affecting Shepard personally.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 janvier 2011 - 01:34 .

[General User]

Shepard doesn’t need to be in charge of Cerberus projects, but if they have implications for his own operations, he should be at least briefed on them. He needn’t even be given specific data.

Doing so is in TIM’s best interests. Given Shepard’s penchant for shutting down, hard, any potential bad guys who stumble across his path, Shepard could easily compromise Cerberus without trying.

Trust is key in any successful relationship. I don’t think the Lazarus Project should be counted as anything more than history’s most impressive introduction.


On a tangent:

TIM looks at people as tools. But what kind of tool do you suppose he sees Shepard as? A scalpel like Miranda, precise and refined? A hammer like Zaeed, blunt and powerful? I say a sword, an instrument he can wield to either hack, or cut, or pierce the heart of humanity’s greatest enemy.

Modifié par General User, 30 janvier 2011 - 03:22 .

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Shepard doesn’t need to be in charge of Cerberus projects, but if they have implications for his own operations, he should be at least briefed on them. He needn’t even be given specific data (“We are working on a geth virus. Progress has been slow. ”).

And why does Shepard need to know that Cerberus is investigating something that may or may not produce results? Cerberus pursues lots of things: who decides what's relevant? You don't trust TIM to make that choice, since that's already what he did, so who would?

About the only specific item that comes to mind is the Derilect Reaper itself, but that comes with a whole lot of caveats and reasons to not tell Shepard. (Immediate forwarding of information to the Council, and preventing Cerberus from looking around while the Council does one of it's blackout-coverups, being among them.)

Otherwise? 

Doing so is in TIM’s best interests. Given Shepard’s penchant for shutting down, hard, any potential bad guys who stumble across his path, Shepard could easily compromise Cerberus without trying.

It's no more in TIM's interest than taking the data to Anderson, who's also working against the Reapers. Of course, TIM hates Cerberus more than he hates the Reapers. Simply because they have a common objective doesn't mean they have full common cause.

Yes, Shepard can compromise Cerberus, but because of the cell structure he can't compromise much beyond his perview, or beyond what Cerberus shows to him. Which is precisely about what Cerberus is willing to risk for Shepard.

Trust is key in any successful relationship. I don’t think the Lazarus Project should be counted as anything more than history’s most impressive introduction.

Trust also requires both sides.

Why should Cerberus trust Shepard to such an extent to widely compromise itself, when large, large fractions of Shepards take many/every opportunity to screw Cerberus over? Why does Shepard deserve so much trust, when he can clearly be willing to abuse it greatly? Shepard's politics are questionable. Shepard's loyalties are questionable. Shepard's choices are questionable.

Simply because Shepard is important enough for Humanity to bring back doesn't mean that he's right for Cerberus, or that Cerberus is right for Shepard.

On a tangent:
TIM looks at people as tools. But what kind of tool do you suppose he sees Shepard as? A scalpel like Miranda, precise and refined? A hammer like Zaeed, blunt and powerful? I say a sword, an instrument he can wield to either hack, or cut, or pierce the heart of humanity’s greatest enemy.

Do you make a habit of writing your social security number, your bank information, and your private information on your hand tools?

Or am I missing the point of the tangent?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 janvier 2011 - 03:23 .

[General User]

Tangent intended to provide insight into respective perceptions of The Illusive Man’s character and motivations.

[Fromyou]

The Illusive Man doesn't view people as tools if he did then he wouldn't care about their family situations or anything along those lines. With that one Cerberus agent he moved his family to Earth before the collectors went to that planet (Though now the family has to deal with a Reaper Invasion)

[General User]

Let me pitch a couple of scenarios where TIM, without exposing either himself or Cerberus unduly, could get the most out of Shepard, include Shepard at an appropriate level, and build the exact sort of trust that makes for successful relationships.
 
Concerning Horizon. “Shepard. If we don’t hit the Collectors back and soon, they’re just going to keep taking colonies. I have an idea on how to lure them in…”
 
Renegade Response:  Agreed, what do you need me to do.
Neutral Response:  It’s either this or they strike somewhere we can’t even respond to.
Paragon Response: Pointless moralizing + appeals to organizations that can’t/won’t help + eventual Neutral Response.
 
Or the Collector Cruiser. “Shepard. We intercepted a distress call from a turian patrol who encountered the Collectors, but it’s a fake. The Collectors are trying a trap of their own. You HAVE to go in, without Collector navigational data we can’t penetrate the Ω4 and stop these attacks, and this might be our only chance to get it. But that doesn’t mean we can’t turn the tables on our little friends…”
 
Renegade Response:  Agreed, what do you need me to do.
Neutral Response:  Thanks for the heads-up, I’ll be ready.
Paragon Response: Neutral Response + pointless moralizing

Thoughts?

[Xilizhra]

Fromyou wrote...

The Illusive Man doesn't view people as tools if he did then he wouldn't care about their family situations or anything along those lines. With that one Cerberus agent he moved his family to Earth before the collectors went to that planet (Though now the family has to deal with a Reaper Invasion)

They're still tools, just valuable ones. You don't leave a lawnmower out in the rain.

[Wulfram]

A council loyalist Shepard's logical first assignment as a Spectre after the reapers are dealt with would be the destruction of Cerberus. So TIM is sensible to only reveal what is necessary.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And why does Shepard need to know that Cerberus is investigating something that may or may not produce results? Cerberus pursues lots of things: who decides what's relevant? You don't trust TIM to make that choice, since that's already what he did, so who would?

So that he doesn't accidentally blow them up. Or waste time and effort investigating them. Or for that matter, so he has some sense of any of the actual good TIM and Jacob and Miranda keep tellng him Cerberus does.

About the only specific item that comes to mind is the Derilect Reaper itself, but that comes with a whole lot of caveats and reasons to not tell Shepard. (Immediate forwarding of information to the Council, and preventing Cerberus from looking around while the Council does one of it's blackout-coverups, being among them.)

Otherwise? 

And meanwhile, conceiling proof of the Reapers from the Council and Alliance, thus giving them no reason to prepare.

It's no more in TIM's interest than taking the data to Anderson, who's also working against the Reapers. Of course, TIM hates Cerberus more than he hates the Reapers. Simply because they have a common objective doesn't mean they have full common cause.

Yes, Shepard can compromise Cerberus, but because of the cell structure he can't compromise much beyond his perview, or beyond what Cerberus shows to him. Which is precisely about what Cerberus is willing to risk for Shepard.

That was completely inexplicable, given Shepard isn't able to do the same with anything else, even after challenging TIM on why TIM doesn't want him to.

Trust also requires both sides.

Why should Cerberus trust Shepard to such an extent to widely compromise itself, when large, large fractions of Shepards take many/every opportunity to screw Cerberus over? Why does Shepard deserve so much trust, when he can clearly be willing to abuse it greatly? Shepard's politics are questionable. Shepard's loyalties are questionable. Shepard's choices are questionable.

Simply because Shepard is important enough for Humanity to bring back doesn't mean that he's right for Cerberus, or that Cerberus is right for Shepard.

You talk about this as if only Cerberus is at stake. Reapers, remember? TIM brought Shep back without having any clue if he would even follow Cerberus, allegedly simply because of the Reaper threat. I take it that threat isn't as big a deal now? Is Shep the right person for the job or not?

[Varus Praetor]

It's tough. I don't consider the Illusive Man evil, mostly because I believe there are many circumstances where the end justifies the means. I do, however, see where anyone could consider him evil. I mean, was Stalin any less evil because he stopped the "National Socialists" in WWII?

*I realize that people misuse the term **** to attack other people, but it does have legit uses in a historical context.  It's a real shame it has to be edited out.

Modifié par Varus Praetor, 30 janvier 2011 - 08:29 .

[Si-Shen]

I see posts where people say TIM does not view his people as resources or tools, but thats bull. In some of the mission debreifs it clearly referes to Miranda and Jacob (after loyalty) as a resourse worth the extra effort to control. In the novels, he refers to people constantly as assets, tools to serve his "cause" and works to protect those that he needs and lets go of those he does not. TIM even uses Shepard as a tool, valuble but a tool.



As for evil, yes, he may tell himself he is doing it for humanity but he has long forgotten what it means to be human. He desires the rise of humanity over all speices, which makes his vision of the future just as evil as the vision people like Hitler had for the future of the world. His hopes that history will show him a hero of humanity are flawed, much like how we refer to some of the most vile of warlords and despots now.

[Arijharn]

Si-Shen wrote...

I see posts where people say TIM does not view his people as resources or tools, but thats bull. In some of the mission debreifs it clearly referes to Miranda and Jacob (after loyalty) as a resourse worth the extra effort to control. In the novels, he refers to people constantly as assets, tools to serve his "cause" and works to protect those that he needs and lets go of those he does not. TIM even uses Shepard as a tool, valuble but a tool.

Be that as it may, he's at least a discerning tool keeper. He doesn't seem to want to unduly waste his 'tools.' If anything, TIM treats his staff like any CEO of a major multi-national corporation. He recognises their inherent value, but he doesn't say ring them up and ask if they want to go to the bar on friday.

The difference between TIM and someone like say the head of Sony is that TIM asks for progress and usually allows the teams to run rather independently to get that progress. TIM is as much hands off in regards to his employee's as the Citadel Council is with their Spectre's, but only TIM gets flak, why is that?

TIM also didn't want to commit extra 'resources' to the derelict reaper after they ascertained that some catastrophic loss occured. He only sent you because we needed the Reaper IFF (and if you didn't have that, then there is every chance you'd be killed instantly when you jump through the O4 relay)