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[Xilizhra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

http://masseffect.wi..._-_January_2010
Judging by the Trident cell, either TIM has a horrible track record for the employees he chooses to "study" biotics, or Teltin wasn't morally reprehensible to him at all and the only thing the scientists were hiding was the attrition rate of their subjects.

The "attrition rate" of subjects was the hardest thing to conseal, as frequent purchasing of new ones couldn't be cheap, even if they managed to negotiate a wholesale discount with the Batarians. Those were biotic humans, after all.

That, I imagine, is why TIM was getting suspicious.
Of course, I find it hard to believe that he'd simply trust operation reports without taking steps to independently verify the actions of his subordinates.

[JGray]

Xilizhra wrote...

That, I imagine, is why TIM was getting suspicious.
Of course, I find it hard to believe that he'd simply trust operation reports without taking steps to independently verify the actions of his subordinates.

Of course, we also have to consider how manipulating TIM is. It could be that he has a kindler, gentler persona when dealing with his people but pushes them in subtle ways to do the worst possible things. Gives them deadlines they can't meet, gives them freedom from academic and government oversight. This way he gets the results he wants, is able to deny the worst things his people did by claiming they went rogue, and gets an additional measure of control over his people (either through the guilt most reasonable people would feel on some level or the fear they'll feel of being found out and punished).

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

http://masseffect.wi..._-_January_2010
Judging by the Trident cell, either TIM has a horrible track record for the employees he chooses to "study" biotics, or Teltin wasn't morally reprehensible to him at all and the only thing the scientists were hiding was the attrition rate of their subjects.

The "attrition rate" of subjects was the hardest thing to conseal, as frequent purchasing of new ones couldn't be cheap, even if they managed to negotiate a wholesale discount with the Batarians. Those were biotic humans, after all.

That, I imagine, is why TIM was getting suspicious.
Of course, I find it hard to believe that he'd simply trust operation reports without taking steps to independently verify the actions of his subordinates.

Why not?

What marks TIM as a compulsive micromanager? Why can't he follow a model similar to the Council and it's Spectres: give task, receive reports, don't ask too many questions?

[Xilizhra]

He keeps the number of Cerberus operations quite small so that he can keep track of all of them.

[Legbiter]

No. Maybe slightly....evil-ish, but not evil EVIL.

[Schneidend]

"Evil" implies to me purely destructive actions that benefit as few people as possible (in order to maximize those benefits for those individuals). So, no.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

He keeps the number of Cerberus operations quite small so that he can keep track of all of them.

EDI also thinks that Cerberus has only a hundred or so operatives. For obvious reasons (including counting dead bodies/people we kill), that's not feasible at all.

A pan-galactic spy ring, like what Cerberus maintains, is not 'quite small.' Even without the dozens of front companies, TIM's political contact list on all the alien capitals, and the number of referenced operations alone, we're looking far, far beyond what EDI claimed.

On the other hand, we also have every other Cerberus operatives's opinion, which is the exact opposite. TIM gives objective, they're left to figure out how on their own. No red tape, not even a strictly enforced heirarchy, no signs of all-present oversight.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 février 2011 - 01:53 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

louise101 wrote...

He may have resurrected Shephard but i think he had something to do with him dying also,

[Citation needed[/]

and just because he did doesn't mean i have to believe his every word. I just don't trust him.

What don't you trust him about? A guy who admits freely his willingness to do 'whatever it takes' (and, implicitly, admitting to being a liar) should not be disbelieved.

Throughout the game he only gives one direct lie (calling the Collector signal a Turian signal.) Otherwise, he's guilty only of giving you a path to lead yourself down, but that only works if you walk yourself down it (and you can usually challenge him on the points for clarification, like with the Horizon ambush setup).

The best liars know the importance of not actually lying that much, until the critical moments. Untill then, they're actually pretty reliable.

The following statement is a lie.

The above statement is true.

That's basically what your argument amounts to. Because he tells you he is a liar, you should trust him. Makes no sense.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

He keeps the number of Cerberus operations quite small so that he can keep track of all of them.

EDI also thinks that Cerberus has only a hundred or so operatives. For obvious reasons (including counting dead bodies/people we kill), that's not feasible at all.

A pan-galactic spy ring, like what Cerberus maintains, is not 'quite small.' Even without the dozens of front companies, TIM's political contact list on all the alien capitals, and the number of referenced operations alone, we're looking far, far beyond what EDI claimed.

On the other hand, we also have every other Cerberus operatives's opinion, which is the exact opposite. TIM gives objective, they're left to figure out how on their own. No red tape, not even a strictly enforced heirarchy, no signs of all-present oversight.

150 operatives may as well mean 150 people like Miranda, Jacob and Kai Leng. Ken, Gabby, Kelly and even Mr. Gardner don't qualify as operatives, I suppose. Plus there are "agents": the non-sworn Cerberus contacts, like "corrupt" politicians, permanent contractors, criminal ring-leaders, etc. (most of whom may even not suspect a part of what they actually are).

And of course, TIM can use many of them in fire-and-forget mode, but it stands to reason that the main projects (and Teltin seems to have matched this category) receive more personal oversight from TIM.

[Moiaussi]

150 may also merely be how many are left after Shepard's actions in ME1. Not just the direct losses, but attrition due to desertion.



It did seem low though... have I mentioned I feel that the writers have no sense of scale?



Cerberus shouldn't be that small, but either EDI lied, or it is that small. If EDI lied, that brings up a LOT of issues.

[Schneidend]

Cerberus is a clandestine cabal of pro-human soldiers, scientists, and operatives, not a private army. 150 sounds fine to me.

[Moiaussi]

150 is tiny, even for a clandestine organization.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

150 may also merely be how many are left after Shepard's actions in ME1.

Shepard's actions against Cerberus in ME1 are optional and may have never happened. It's possible to play through ME1 and never once hear of Cerberus.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

150 may also merely be how many are left after Shepard's actions in ME1.

Shepard's actions against Cerberus in ME1 are optional and may have never happened. It's possible to play through ME1 and never once hear of Cerberus.

In which case Alliance regulars may have taken out those operations while hunting Geth on clean up. Do you get to ask TIM about Cerberus's past operations in the default? Not done the default enough times to remember.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

150 may also merely be how many are left after Shepard's actions in ME1.

Shepard's actions against Cerberus in ME1 are optional and may have never happened. It's possible to play through ME1 and never once hear of Cerberus.

In which case Alliance regulars may have taken out those operations while hunting Geth on clean up.

No, they didn't.

And come on, those were just two bases anyway. The Turians take out six in Retribution, and still TIM is quite certain that Cerberus will recover soon.

Moiaussi wrote...

Do you get to ask TIM about Cerberus's past operations in the default? Not done the default enough times to remember.

No particular Cerberus operations from ME1 are referenced in ME2 unless Shepard had stepped into them personally. The only exception is Admiral Kahoku, who is reported killed (although withouth calling his name, IIRC) by Vasir in LotSB even if you've never heard of Kahoku. But they both were the Shadow Broker's clients, so that's probably where Vasir's information comes from.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 février 2011 - 05:49 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, they didn't.

Now you are making up facts again. I at least suggested a possibility rather than a fact. If you have something to back you up, please provide it.

And come on, those were just two bases anyway. The Turians take out six in Retribution, and still TIM is quite certain that Cerberus will recover soon.

Which says that Cerberus was hit hard enough that it needs to recover, rather than those operations being 'incidental.' "Soon' is not 'now.'

No particular Cerberus operations from ME1 are referenced in ME2 unless Shepard had stepped into them personally. The only exception is Admiral Kahoku, who is reported killed (although withouth calling his name, IIRC) by Vasir in LotSB even if you've never heard of Kahoku. But they both were the Shadow Broker's clients, so that's probably where Vasir's information comes from.

That is not evidence that the other operations weren't taken out, only evidence that Shepard didn't know about them having done so. On the other hand, the VS still has the same reaction to Cerberus as if Shepard did those missions, which means they had to have known about them somehow.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 02 février 2011 - 06:32 .

[DarthSliver]

In the beginning when Jacob tells you, Sheperd saids " I dealt with them before"(Something to that extent) and thats just the PS3 version. So I am guessing even default has dealt with Cerberus.



But after completing the game today and getting TIM reaction and Jacobs thought about blowing up the base. I have a funny feeling Cerberus will be a problem and not in that they will sabotage Sheperd from stopping the Reapers. That they might intentionally make him make hard choices and he/she will lose some good friends.



So I must say that TIM is evil. His like Palpatine in a way, but without being Sithlord lol. I think if Sheperd wants to be able to put full focus on the Reapers when they arrive, he/she will have to take out TIM or cripple Cerberus before hand.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, they didn't.

Now you are making up facts again. I at least suggested a possibility rather than a fact. If you have something to back you up, please provide it.

No, you're making up facts. You suggested that it was a fact that a possibbilty existed and blah-blah... There is nothing to even hint at such a possibility.

As to backing up my "facts", I have nothing but a unit of dead Alliance regulars, and a dead Alliance regular rear admiral, whom nobody was caring about.

Anyway, we're discussing not your anti-Cerberus fantasies here, but who is evil and who isn't. And since your previous post is #666 reply in this thread, you are evil!!!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 février 2011 - 06:55 .

[Tennessee88]

DarthSliver wrote...

In the beginning when Jacob tells you, Sheperd saids " I dealt with them before"(Something to that extent) and thats just the PS3 version. So I am guessing even default has dealt with Cerberus.

But after completing the game today and getting TIM reaction and Jacobs thought about blowing up the base. I have a funny feeling Cerberus will be a problem and not in that they will sabotage Sheperd from stopping the Reapers. That they might intentionally make him make hard choices and he/she will lose some good friends.

So I must say that TIM is evil. His like Palpatine in a way, but without being Sithlord lol. I think if Sheperd wants to be able to put full focus on the Reapers when they arrive, he/she will have to take out TIM or cripple Cerberus before hand.

I did not deal with Cerberus in the first game and I had all three options to start off. 

But more to your point and my qualms with it. Let me start off by stating that I have watched several youtube videos on the Paragon ending (My Shepard has always been a renegade) but I realize that I might have missed the dialouge you are referring to and if so I apologize. If you can fill me in on Jacob's reaction I would appreciate it. 

As for the illusive man being evil, I guess my opinion has always been that greatly depends on an individual's opinion of what constitutes evil. However I cannot see TIM as an adversary to Shepard simply to fill the role of manipulative malicious revenge seeking antagonist. He has two clear goals, power for humanity, and the survival of the human race. I do not see how it benefits TIM to sabotage Shepard in his fight against the Reapers. The only scenario I can imagine is that TIM wishes to reclaim the SR2 in order to allow another operative to continue Shepard's mission with Cerberus's goals as a primary consideration. 

While TIM is without a doubt manipulative and focussed on power, the Sith Lord comparison is akin to comparing apples to oranges. For example Palpatine is motivated by a religious like doctrine while TIM seems to be motivated by very human emotions. 

[JGray]

TIM has been known to be extremely vengeful, though. He specifically picked Paul Grayson as a tesr subject in order to advance Cerebrus' goals at one point in order to gain revenge on Grayson for defying him. He could have picked up anyone off the street but he used organizational resources to find Grayson (who was hidden and off the grid) and kidnap him.



If TIM thinks he can deal with the Reapers and take revenge on paragon Shepard at the same time? I suspect he'll jump at it.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, you're making up facts. You suggested that it was a fact that a possibbilty existed and blah-blah... There is nothing to even hint at such a possibility.

As to backing up my "facts", I have nothing but a unit of dead Alliance regulars, and a dead Alliance regular rear admiral, whom nobody was caring about.

Anyway, we're discussing not your anti-Cerberus fantasies here, but who is evil and who isn't. And since your previous post is #666 reply in this thread, you are evil!!!

Pardon, but there is a world of difference in saying something is and that something might be.

When you say something happened, you have to prove it actually happened for your statement to be meaningful.

If you say it might have happened, then it only has to be proven possible.

Yes, Cerberus killed some alliance regulars and an admiral. They have more, and admirals usually don't get that directly involved. Regardless, you have not explained the VS's reaction, nor the discussion with Jacob, whereas I have. The other alternative is that Shepard did those missions and we just didn't play through them, just as we didn't play through any of his carreer pre-ME1.

Either way, those missions (or equivalent missions) happened.

[Whatever42]

TIM is not evil. He is single-mindedly, recklessly focused on his goal. Those opposed to that goal would certainly find him a villain. Those who agree with the goal likely find his methods distasteful. However, to be "evil", I think you would have to look at his motivations. If they are selfish (he's on a powertrip and only desires to elevate himself) then he's evil.

It's true that TIM doesn't care how the job gets done as long as it gets done. This drives weaker subordinates to take reckless, immoral risks. TIM usually approves and encourages these actions because he believes it gets the job done.

However, Shepard can get the job done and throw it back in TIMs face and TIM will take it. That shows it's not about the ego, it's not about TIM enjoying torturing autistic people, its simply that TIM will support anything which advances the survival and prosperity of the human race.

Even after Shepard blows the Collector base, TIM doesn't want him gone, because he knows while Shepard may take Cerberus one step back at times, he also takes two steps forward. If this was all about TIM's ego and desire to dominate, he would never tolerate Shepard running roughshod over his wishes and throwing it back in his face. However, he takes what Shepard dishes out.

So TIM is not evil. And it's even good that Shepard remain affiliated with Cerberus. While the average minion will bend to TIMs single-minded drive and do awful things, Shepard will do what he thinks is right and can stand up to TIM quite effectively. And TIM will still give him the majority of their resources to accomplish the mission, resources that would otherwise be going to less-effective, less moral purposes.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 02 février 2011 - 03:27 .

[Lapis Lazuli]

A lot of things are left up in the air intentionally concerning his moral fiber. We know that the scientists on the Teltin project were hiding things from TIM. It is clearly shown that this can be taken two ways. TIM also shut down the facility after Jack's escape; this is also clearly shown to be interpretable in two ways. The authors don't want us to know for sure.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

If you say it might have happened, then it only has to be proven possible.

Which you still have to do regarding the possibility that those bases got compromised if  Shepard didn't do those missions.

Moiaussi wrote...

Yes, Cerberus killed some alliance regulars and an admiral. They have more, and admirals usually don't get that directly involved. Regardless, you have not explained the VS's reaction, nor the discussion with Jacob, whereas I have. The other alternative is that Shepard did those missions and we just didn't play through them, just as we didn't play through any of his carreer pre-ME1.

This is even more hilarious assumption than "someone else might have done it". If it doesn't get referenced, it didn't happen by default. You see, Gianna Parasini could have nailed Anoleis on her own, and "some Alliance regulars" could have saved Terra Nova from Balak's terror attack, as these events are reported.

But when something that "might have happened" isn't reported, it means it didn't happen, by default.

Otherwise you can write any kind of fan fiction and use in as an argument because "it might have happened". Like you can "prove" that Liara is a canonical LI, because even if the player didn't romance her in the game, or even romanced Ashley, Shepard still could have had sex with Liara off screen between the games, and the fact that it's not referenced in any way in ME2 means nothing.

Moiaussi wrote...

Either way, those missions (or equivalent missions) happened.

And now you've lose your "might" and are clearly making facts up.

Like, you know, Zaeed is Shepard's father and survived sex with an Ardat-Yakshi. I dare you to prove me wrong.


Oh, and BTW, TIM is unquestionably evil, because he eats kittens alive.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 février 2011 - 04:23 .