965 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The following statement is a lie.

The above statement is true.

That's basically what your argument amounts to. Because he tells you he is a liar, you should trust him. Makes no sense.

Then think on it. This is a rather well-explored field: the most effective liars have strong credibility in many respects. This is something that comes up time and time again in politics, espionage, group-level social maneuverings.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 février 2011 - 04:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

He keeps the number of Cerberus operations quite small so that he can keep track of all of them.

EDI also thinks that Cerberus has only a hundred or so operatives. For obvious reasons (including counting dead bodies/people we kill), that's not feasible at all.

A pan-galactic spy ring, like what Cerberus maintains, is not 'quite small.' Even without the dozens of front companies, TIM's political contact list on all the alien capitals, and the number of referenced operations alone, we're looking far, far beyond what EDI claimed.

On the other hand, we also have every other Cerberus operatives's opinion, which is the exact opposite. TIM gives objective, they're left to figure out how on their own. No red tape, not even a strictly enforced heirarchy, no signs of all-present oversight.

150 operatives may as well mean 150 people like Miranda, Jacob and Kai Leng. Ken, Gabby, Kelly and even Mr. Gardner don't qualify as operatives, I suppose. Plus there are "agents": the non-sworn Cerberus contacts, like "corrupt" politicians, permanent contractors, criminal ring-leaders, etc. (most of whom may even not suspect a part of what they actually are).

And of course, TIM can use many of them in fire-and-forget mode, but it stands to reason that the main projects (and Teltin seems to have matched this category) receive more personal oversight from TIM.

Dividing it up comes to even more inflation or the organization, though: if there are only 150-odd Miranda and Jacob's, then even at an unweildy five-per-project that's still 10 projects alone, more than the EDI numbers, and doesn't even touch on the sort of non-agent operatives (the spies, the researchers who don't need an agent, etc.).

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dividing it up comes to even more inflation or the organization, though: if there are only 150-odd Miranda and Jacob's, then even at an unweildy five-per-project that's still 10 projects alone, more than the EDI numbers, and doesn't even touch on the sort of non-agent operatives (the spies, the researchers who don't need an agent, etc.).

In the intelligence world "agent" means anyone working for the agency, sworn-in, or not. But as the sworn-in personnel are called "operatives", "agent" usually refers to the non-sworn-in. Like in "double agent".

The source of the confusion is that in domestic security agancies, like the FBI, the staffers are called "special agents", and it gets mixed up.

http://en.wikipedia....law_enforcement
http://en.wikipedia....ts_in_espionage

Example: James Bond is an MI-6 operative. Natasha, his lover and a KGB operative, is a double agent. Volodya, Natasha's gay cousin working for Bond to spy on Natasha in Moscow is an MI-6 agent. Boris, a Soviet expatriate working for Natasha to spy on Bond in London is a KGB agent.

Therefore, in ME2 Shepard is a Cerberus agent (but not a Cerberus operative), no matter how you like it. Cerberus may have only 150 odd operatives, but hundreds more of specialists (scientists, analysts, commandoes) and support personnel (like the Normandy crew), and thousands to tens of thousands of agents (like Golo in Ascension) And that not counting the completely uninvolved employees of the shell companies.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 février 2011 - 05:36 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Which you still have to do regarding the possibility that those bases got compromised if  Shepard didn't do those missions.

You have not offered a counter to my point regarding the initial discussions with Jacob or the VS's reaction to your working with Cerberus, or for that matter, the Council's opinion towards Cerberus. In ME1, noone had heard of them and now everyone knows about them being 'bad' or 'terrorist."

This is even more hilarious assumption than "someone else might have done it". If it doesn't get referenced, it didn't happen by default. You see, Gianna Parasini could have nailed Anoleis on her own, and "some Alliance regulars" could have saved Terra Nova from Balak's terror attack, as these events are reported.

But when something that "might have happened" isn't reported, it means it didn't happen, by default.

Otherwise you can write any kind of fan fiction and use in as an argument because "it might have happened". Like you can "prove" that Liara is a canonical LI, because even if the player didn't romance her in the game, or even romanced Ashley, Shepard still could have had sex with Liara off screen between the games, and the fact that it's not referenced in any way in ME2 means nothing.

Only if there is evidence in game. There is no evidence in game of Liara being the player's LI. There is plenty that she is interested in Shepard, but that doesn't make it mutual.

Similarly, we don't know what happens with Anoleis if Shepard didn't intervene. There is nothing reporting either way. Balak, though.... you would think that if a colony was destroyed by terrorists ramming it with an Asteroid, it would have made the news..... even so, a lack of news either way means it could simply be 'yesterday's news.'

With Cerberus, though, Shepard has the option to tell Jacob he has run into them even if he didn't in your ME1 playthrough. The VS gets angry with you working with them based on 'what you saw (in ME1)' even if you didn't in your ME1 playthrough.

What happens happens, but events CAN and DO happen off camera. Otherwise you are arguing that by the time of ME, everyone has infintite bowel capacity and only talks about eating rather than actually eating. And the washrooms on the SR2 are there only for historical purposes and are not actually neccessary.

Cripes, use some basic logic.....

And now you've lose your "might" and are clearly making facts up.

Like, you know, Zaeed is Shepard's father and survived sex with an Ardat-Yakshi. I dare you to prove me wrong.

Oh, and BTW, TIM is unquestionably evil, because he eats kittens alive.

Presenting evidence with a reasonable explaination is presenting a possible scenario. Saying something is, even with evidence to suggest it might be does not make it fact.

Either something happened to cause Jacob, the VS, the Council, and even Shepard himself to have the opinions they do of Cerbeus in ME2, or all those characters are just delusional. Which of those is more likely? Feel free to present any alternative theory.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Which you still have to do regarding the possibility that those bases got compromised if  Shepard didn't do those missions.

You have not offered a counter to my point regarding the initial discussions with Jacob or the VS's reaction to your working with Cerberus, or for that matter, the Council's opinion towards Cerberus. In ME1, noone had heard of them and now everyone knows about them being 'bad' or 'terrorist."

It's is being questioned as an all-out ret-con, though. Nothing suggests that "something happened" in between the two games. On the contrary, the Codex article about Cerberus (added in ME2) provides explanation as to why Cerberus are (now) seen as "terrorists": they were called that after the raid on the SSV Geneva, that resulted in acquisition of some antimatter at the cost of several assailants getting killed and one captured alive to claim Cerberus was responsible. That happened 20 years before the events of ME2.

Plus the belletristic literature, like Drew Karpyshyn's novel "Ascension", that is often advertised as based on real events, must be the Alliance marines' reading of choice.

I'd call it "expanding universe", or a minor ret-con at most.

BTW, IRL soldiers (and officers) tend to hate their commanding officers (and high command), let alone the CIA, "on principle", because it's quite natural to hate what gets you into trouble on a daily basis. That doesn't mean any action is ever authorized to satisfy this sentiment.

And it's OK to have theories. However, this theory of yours "The Nepheron base gets trashed no matter what" is derailing this thread. Try to make a separate thread for it, we'll see how it goes.

There is a lot of stuff that can't be determined for certain, but there is stuff that is heavily suggested by the game's facts, and the stuff that you simply wish was true, but is not even hinted at.

Use some basic logic...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 février 2011 - 04:30 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's is being questioned as an all-out ret-con, though. Nothing suggests that "something happened" in between the two games. On the contrary, the Codex article about Cerberus (added in ME2) provides explanation as to why Cerberus are (now) seen as "terrorists": they were called that after the raid on the SSV Geneva, that resulted in acquisition of some antimatter at the cost of several assailants getting killed and one captured alive to claim Cerberus was responsible. That happened 20 years before the events of ME2.

Plus the belletristic literature, like Drew Karpyshyn's novel "Ascesion", that is often advertised as based on real events, must be the Alliance marines' reading of choice.

I'd call it "expanding universe", or a minor ret-con at most.

BTW, IRL soldiers (and officers) tend to hate their commanding officers (and high command), let alone the CIA, "on principle", because it's quite natural to hate what gets you into trouble on a daily basis. That doesn't mean any action is ever authorized to satisfy this sentiment.

And it's OK to have theories. However, this theory of yours "The Nepheron base gets trashed no matter what" is derailing this thread. Try to make a separate thread for it, we'll see how it goes.

There is a lot of stuff that can't be determined for certain, but there is stuff that is heavily suggested by the game's facts, and the stuff that you simply wish was true, but is not even hinted at.

Use some basic logic...

The codex also says:

 Throughout the 2160s and 2170s, alleged Cerberus agents assassinated politicians, sabotaged starships bearing eezo, and conducted nightmarish experiments on aliens and humans.  

The last part of that in particular stongly suggests that even if those missions were not dealt with (by Shepard, Alliance troops, or whoever), other similar operations were uncovered leading to the codex entry.

Note further that when Shepard is sent to investigate Missing Marines, he may have talked to Kahoku directly, but Anderson knew about it (would direct Shepard to Kahoku). The Listening Posts missions are distress calls from Alliance marines, and lead to "Depot Sigma-23" which ties the operations to Cerberus.

In both those cases it is clear that the Alliance either knew of or would know of them soon enough. We know from Hackett that the Alliance had ships in the area guarding against/hunting Geth, so it seems reasonable to conclude that the Alliance had opportunity. 

Again, just because Shepard doesn't do something doesn't mean the rest of the universe doesn't exist. Information regarding Cerberus' operations came from somewhere, and if the codex relates to other Cerberus operations, it is more evidence against TIM, not less.

So... if the operations Shepard doesn't hit in ME1 remain unresolved (which has interesting ramifications.... loose Rachni among other things), then there is proof that we weren't just seeing the anomolies in ME1.

There, all back on track. You are right... the number of Cerberus operatives and why it is so low is off topic. The number and nature of Cerberus operations, however, is completely relevant to this thread. 

Modifié par Moiaussi, 03 février 2011 - 12:19 .

[Fromyou]

Cerberus actions aren't off topic due to the illusive man orders them

[SFF19]

He approved of an innocent man suffering a horrific fate worse than death all so he could play god and brainwash an entire race to do his bidding.

That sounds pretty damn evil to me.

[Whatever42]

He never approved of it. And the brother didn't say he would return to that kind of experiment. He actually seemed pretty remorseful to me and realized that he went too far. He simply said that he wanted to look after his brother and continue the research. Continuing on in a safer, more humane fashion would benefit everyone.

[SFF19]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

He never approved of it. And the brother didn't say he would return to that kind of experiment. He actually seemed pretty remorseful to me and realized that he went too far. He simply said that he wanted to look after his brother and continue the research. Continuing on in a safer, more humane fashion would benefit everyone.

Read the email you get if you complete Overlord as a Paragon.  He specifically scolds you for saving David and ruining his dreams of becoming the Geth's new god.

Honestly, I will NEVER understand how ANYONE can justify the atrocity that is Project Overlord.

[Whatever42]

Yes, of course TIM scolds you. You're taking away the potential key to managing the geth threat. However, I don't believe he ever approves of the experiment, he's just against ceasing all research.



TIM does drive his subordinates too hard and he knows that they do cross the line. However, there are limits and his subordinates know it. For example, the researches at the SuZe experiement knew he would shut them down.

[Dean_the_Young]

SFF19 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

He never approved of it. And the brother didn't say he would return to that kind of experiment. He actually seemed pretty remorseful to me and realized that he went too far. He simply said that he wanted to look after his brother and continue the research. Continuing on in a safer, more humane fashion would benefit everyone.

Read the email you get if you complete Overlord as a Paragon.  He specifically scolds you for saving David and ruining his dreams of becoming the Geth's new god.

His tone is whatever you read into it. The wording is tone neutral and objective: it can be read as accusatory, regretful, or simply impartial.

Honestly, I will NEVER understand how ANYONE can justify the atrocity that is Project Overlord.

As long as you don't understand war either, and the allure for being able to mitigating it so easily, that will probably hold. I hope it does.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 février 2011 - 08:16 .

[TuringPoint]

This is not an ordinary war-time situation. Just want to point that out...

However, I looked for any ambiguity in the good Dr.'s e-mail after the paragon ending, and I didn't find any. I'll look again the next time I play the game...

The project was rushed because of TIM's deadlines, which are probably defined by resources and possibly other exterior factors. Other interior factors, perhaps. TIM is trying to make sure he doesn' t waste the money his organization has. The result was not a good thing for that project, especially because the lead researcher decided he should push the research forward artificially instead of just pulling the plug. Perhaps he should've worked on coming up with another concept of research revolving around his brother's knowledge and ability to speak with Geth. The figurehead idea, plugging his brother directly into the Geth, was a very strange idea considering his brothers' emotional difficulties. If he knew anything about his brother's condition, and didn't just use his condition as a tool, this might not have happened.

So we see how the metaphorical "devil" gets hold of someone like him. It's not simple how he gets there; and it involves the "needs" of war. War corrupts like toxic waste.

'Scuse the analogy; it's not really a proper argument, and it doesn't need to be.

Modifié par Alocormin, 03 février 2011 - 08:47 .

[SFF19]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SFF19 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

He never approved of it. And the brother didn't say he would return to that kind of experiment. He actually seemed pretty remorseful to me and realized that he went too far. He simply said that he wanted to look after his brother and continue the research. Continuing on in a safer, more humane fashion would benefit everyone.

Read the email you get if you complete Overlord as a Paragon.  He specifically scolds you for saving David and ruining his dreams of becoming the Geth's new god.

His tone is whatever you read into it. The wording is tone neutral and objective: it can be read as accusatory, regretful, or simply impartial.

Honestly, I will NEVER understand how ANYONE can justify the atrocity that is Project Overlord.

As long as you don't understand war either, and the allure for being able to mitigating it so easily, that will probably hold. I hope it does.

Oh, don't even give me that "Geth war" spiel.  A second war with the Geth is more than likely never going to happen, especially once the Heretic Geth either are destoryed or rejoin the True Geth.

Besides, the only reason they were winning in the first game is because they had Saren and Sovereign on their side.  With them gone, they're little more than a nuisance at this point.  And even if they weren't, that STILL wouldn't excuse what Archer did.

Modifié par SFF19, 03 février 2011 - 09:32 .

[Whatever42]

Oh, its just not a second war with the Geth that likely drives this research. What if the Geth decided to support the Reapers again? Or what if humanity was embroiled in another conflict. It would be nice to be able to count on the Geth as an ally.



It's a very dangerous universe out there. Humanity can't simply be sweet and nice and expect to survive.

[Dean_the_Young]

SFF19 wrote...

Oh, don't even give me that "Geth war" spiel.  A second war with the Geth is more than likely never going to happen, especially once the Heretic Geth either are destoryed or rejoin the True Geth.

And anyone knew of the existence of the True Geth during the period of Overlord?

Even ignoring the fact that there are no guarantees to the future, or how supported your trust in Legion is, the fact is that when Overlord was partaken, war with the Geth wasn't merely a reality (complete with continuing Geth attempts at human genocide and negative tech development), renewed war with the Geth was a near-certainty when the Reapers, who they worshiped, returned.

Besides, the only reason they were winning in the first game is because they had Saren and Sovereign on their side.  With them gone, they're little more than a nuisance at this point. 

Until you know about Legion and the True Geth, the only reason they were losing after Sovereign's loss was because they were largely remaining behind the Veil for their own reasons. Their first expeditionary force was destroyed, but their war potential was not.

And even if they weren't, that STILL wouldn't excuse what Archer did.

Many who've lived through a war wouldn't agree: if the Iraqi War could have been nullified by one death, people would pay far more for far less margins. Take about any war in history, and the people who lived through it would generally agree that, if they could have won at a fraction of the cost, they would have prefered it.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Many who've lived through a war wouldn't agree: if the Iraqi War could have been nullified by one death, people would pay far more for far less margins. Take about any war in history, and the people who lived through it would generally agree that, if they could have won at a fraction of the cost, they would have prefered it.

So you feel we should be developing and deploying chemical and bio weapons as fast as we can, simply because 'war is bad?'

They could win wars 'at a fraction of the cost....'

There are reasons there are rules of engagement. Such weapons are last resort, not first, and with bloody good reason.

[Moiaussi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Oh, its just not a second war with the Geth that likely drives this research. What if the Geth decided to support the Reapers again? Or what if humanity was embroiled in another conflict. It would be nice to be able to count on the Geth as an ally.

It's a very dangerous universe out there. Humanity can't simply be sweet and nice and expect to survive.

So the only way to defeat the reapers is to become as bad as they are, not only to them, but to everyone else, including other races and our fellow humans? If you become the enemy, you have already lost.....

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

So you feel we should be developing and deploying chemical and bio weapons as fast as we can, simply because 'war is bad?'

They could win wars 'at a fraction of the cost....'

Alas, they didn't and don't. (The cost, by the way, refers to both the lives of the winning faction and the lives of the other side.)

There are reasons there are rules of engagement. Such weapons are last resort, not first, and with bloody good reason.

Overlord's end-goal also trancends the NBC type of weapon. It's akin to a mind control satellite, not an indiscriminate WMD.

[AkiKishi]

What planet is that in the background of TIM's hangout ? Is that Haelstrom?

[Moiaussi]

By the way, the Reaper strategy is to divide, isolate and conquer. Why is it that so many on these boards seem to advocate doing half that work for them ourselves, just out of paranoia that our existing neighbors might somehow be as bad or worse than a much more technologicly advanced faction that wants to eliminate all of us, regardless of race, etc?



Its like arguing that we should have been attacking Russia in 1939 'just in case.' Do Germany's work for them....



It's innane.



It is true that there is a lot we didn't know about the Geth yet, but this is two years later, and even though crossing the veil is appearantly a non-event now, we don't even scout them?



And why would communications be a problem? Sheesh... send in a Normandy class stealth/recon ship, drop a com bouy or two and listen in/broadcast a parley.



They were designed to work with Quarians, so they at least understand and can speak Quarian. They just don't like to due to there being no point between each other.

[Lewie]

BobSmith101 wrote...

What planet is that in the background of TIM's hangout ? Is that Haelstrom?

I have wondered this too, and why it goes bright pale blue at the end.

[Chewin]

The Illusive Man is a guy who would do almost anything to achive his goals. He would kill hundreds to save thousands without a second of thought. It will be intresting to see what kind of role he has in ME 3

[Whatever42]

Moiaussi wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Oh, its just not a second war with the Geth that likely drives this research. What if the Geth decided to support the Reapers again? Or what if humanity was embroiled in another conflict. It would be nice to be able to count on the Geth as an ally.

It's a very dangerous universe out there. Humanity can't simply be sweet and nice and expect to survive.

So the only way to defeat the reapers is to become as bad as they are, not only to them, but to everyone else, including other races and our fellow humans? If you become the enemy, you have already lost.....

I don't think we were talking about exterminating all life in the galaxy, merely ensuring that the human race is safe. What happened to David was certainly too far. I think everyone, including Archer, recognized that. He crossed a line that he won't cross again. I want to punish him too and make sure David is treated right but if he can more ethically continue his research, how many lives could it save?

Even leaving aside the obvious 800-pound gorilla of the Reapers out of the discussion, many thousands of humans are brutally enslaved and tortured by Batarians every day. Humanity isn't strong enough to deal with the problem. What if we could interact and persuade the Geth to become allies? It's worth pushing the ethical boundaries. And, as I said, TIM does have his lines, he's proven that, even if he does push them a little too much. But that's not evil. It's not becoming the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Oh, its just not a second war with the Geth that likely drives this research. What if the Geth decided to support the Reapers again? Or what if humanity was embroiled in another conflict. It would be nice to be able to count on the Geth as an ally.

It's a very dangerous universe out there. Humanity can't simply be sweet and nice and expect to survive.

So the only way to defeat the reapers is to become as bad as they are, not only to them, but to everyone else, including other races and our fellow humans? If you become the enemy, you have already lost.....

Good thing Overlord is nothing like being as bad as the Reapers are, huh?