965 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

Dean is right. In terms of scale, Overlord is one man suffering for the benefit of many. The reapers slaughter entire civilizations because they feel they know what is best for all civilizations.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alas, they didn't and don't. (The cost, by the way, refers to both the lives of the winning faction and the lives of the other side.)

Alas? Wow... Dean, you really advocate use of chemical and bio weapons in RL?

Overlord's end-goal also trancends the NBC type of weapon. It's akin to a mind control satellite, not an indiscriminate WMD.

Not any different than if the genophage was designed to make the Krogan docile and obey the Salarians instead of 'merely' control their reproductive rates to sustainable levels.

Bio weapons designed to that level are just as discriminate. Since the intent is to hit the entire populations, on the theory that there are no innocent Geth, it is not really that much more discriminate than nuking a planet into glass, or simply bombarding it with asteroids til it is uninhabitable even by Geth.

[Moiaussi]

Schneidend wrote...

Dean is right. In terms of scale, Overlord is one man suffering for the benefit of many. The reapers slaughter entire civilizations because they feel they know what is best for all civilizations.

If it worked against Reapers, that might be a relevant point.... 

[Xilizhra]

Moiaussi wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Dean is right. In terms of scale, Overlord is one man suffering for the benefit of many. The reapers slaughter entire civilizations because they feel they know what is best for all civilizations.

If it worked against Reapers, that might be a relevant point.... 

Or if it worked at all. That would be an even more relevant point. Except for the fact that it would have no enemy to fight. So, really, it's just another example of why you should ascertain that you're not committing a pointless atrocity before committing it.

[Lewie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

louise101 wrote...

He may have resurrected Shephard but i think he had something to do with him dying also,

[Citation needed[/]

and just because he did doesn't mean i have to believe his every word. I just don't trust him.

What don't you trust him about? A guy who admits freely his willingness to do 'whatever it takes' (and, implicitly, admitting to being a liar) should not be disbelieved.

Throughout the game he only gives one direct lie (calling the Collector signal a Turian signal.) Otherwise, he's guilty only of giving you a path to lead yourself down, but that only works if you walk yourself down it (and you can usually challenge him on the points for clarification, like with the Horizon ambush setup).

The best liars know the importance of not actually lying that much, until the critical moments. Untill then, they're actually pretty reliable.

Why not to trust him? His past experiments etc i don't need to go over it all again. Master liars are also master manipulators and do you honestly believe he wouldn't do those experiments again? He knew what was going on with David as long as he gets the results he wants, he talks about an 'olive branch' from the quarians then Veetor, if you hand him over is sent back a wreck because of what they did to him yet, as long as he gets the results he wants. That is all TIM wants is results to further his 'goal'. Iv thought the man has became an obsessive tyrant who has lost sight of things. He doesn't have to be all flowers and bunnies thats nonsense the most hardened generals in the army earn respect, without the torture and so on.

To believe that TIM wants the collector base to save the world, there has to be something behind it for him, i doubt he could go public anyway too many people would want to kill him. 

Modifié par louise101, 03 février 2011 - 10:49 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Good thing Overlord is nothing like being as bad as the Reapers are, huh?

Indoctrinate an entire civilization at once? No... nothing like the reapers at all....

If he had a version that worked on organics, you think he wouldn't research that too? 

At the start of ME2, TIM speaks with disdain over the fact that Shepard is being sent to hunt down Geth, despite the fact that the Heretics are working for the Reapers and might lead to insights regarding them.

If the Geth are sufficiently unthreatening at that point that they are not worth Shepard's time, why is Overlord still needed two years later when the Geth seem even less a threat?

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alas, they didn't and don't. (The cost, by the way, refers to both the lives of the winning faction and the lives of the other side.)

Alas? Wow... Dean, you really advocate use of chemical and bio weapons in RL?

No, I don't. Nor is there reason for you to assume I do.

Not any different than if the genophage was designed to make the Krogan docile and obey the Salarians instead of 'merely' control their reproductive rates to sustainable levels.

And if my aunt had balls, she's be my uncle.

The genophage wasn't designed to do that, and even if it were it would still transcend traditional BCN WMD categorization.

Bio weapons designed to that level are just as discriminate. Since the intent is to hit the entire populations, on the theory that there are no innocent Geth, it is not really that much more discriminate than nuking a planet into glass, or simply bombarding it with asteroids til it is uninhabitable even by Geth.

Er, yes. It is.

For one thing, the Geth don't die. For another, scope and scale of accessory destruction. For a third, the nature of the geth collective AI makes 'individual' nearly a meaningless term in regards to the Geth.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

I have said this before:

TIM's MO (modus operandi, mode of operations) could be rationalized as useful if there were some "checks and balances" above him. Whether its the US or China or any world power, we all answer to someone. The President answers to Congress, the Congress answers to Fox News (oops, I meant the people), Fox News answers to Morgan Stanley and Morgan Stanley answers to ... well no one... but Morgan Stanley is only happy if Starbucks has the "Trenta" for walk by coffee in the morning...

So, anyway, the point is he's not part of the system (even remotely) and in the end it means he obeys no "checks and balances". That means that if he gets his way... he'll ALWAYS take and get his way. So if he wants 10 maidens to scratch his balls with glacial stalactites at 6:09am each Sunday then that's what he'll do and rationalization wont matter and wont be required...

The only question is: what's the quality of TIM? If he becomes king of the galaxy will only humans be allowed to get what they want? Are humans really the "best" species? Or are we just saying we are and acting like we are? Personally its seems to me like th Asari lack nothing...

If TIM is just standing up and fighting for humanity in a dog eat dog world/galaxy, then well, that's ok. If he actually BELIEVES he's superior... then yeah whatever, send in the clowns. Use him while he's useful then shut him down when its time to actually manage a real universe

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 03 février 2011 - 10:50 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Good thing Overlord is nothing like being as bad as the Reapers are, huh?

Indoctrinate an entire civilization at once? No... nothing like the reapers at all....

You lack perspective of scale.

Besides the lack of indication that the virus could work that way (unlike, say, the Heretic virus), as opposed to being limited by proximity, the Reapers goal was never subjugation, but extinction. The two aren't comparable.

If he had a version that worked on organics, you think he wouldn't research that too?

He probably would. He's shown no inclination or intent to use it to genocide them, though, which is a huge difference from the Reapers.

At the start of ME2, TIM speaks with disdain over the fact that Shepard is being sent to hunt down Geth, despite the fact that the Heretics are working for the Reapers and might lead to insights regarding them.

If the Geth are sufficiently unthreatening at that point that they are not worth Shepard's time, why is Overlord still needed two years later when the Geth seem even less a threat?

Because Cerberus recognizes the Reapers as the greater threat being ignorred, not that the Geth are unthreatening.

[Schneidend]

Xilizhra wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

If it worked against Reapers, that might be a relevant point.... 

Or if it worked at all. That would be an even more relevant point. Except for the fact that it would have no enemy to fight. So, really, it's just another example of why you should ascertain that you're not committing a pointless atrocity before committing it.

...It does work. What do you think you were doing in those missions and why do you think all those machines wanted to kill you? A single organic was controlling geth with VI assistance. The geth were under control, but there was no way to control David. The technology does what it is fundamentally intended to do, however.

[Dean_the_Young]

louise101 wrote...

Why not to trust him? His past experiments etc i don't need to go over it all again.

His past experiments don't make him a liar. Just a bad man.

Master liars are also master manipulators and do you honestly believe he wouldn't do those experiments again?

He's never once said or implied he wouldn't.

He knew what was going on with David as long as he gets the results he wants, he talks about an 'olive branch' from the quarians then Veetor, if you hand him over is sent back a wreck because of what they did to him yet, as long as he gets the results he wants. That is all TIM wants is results to further his 'goal'. Iv thought the man has became an obsessive tyrant who has lost sight of things. He doesn't have to be all flowers and bunnies thats nonsense the most hardened generals in the army earn respect, without the torture and so on.

And some shadowy leaders don't earn the postive respect of their sometimes-foes.

TIM's never given signs of being a tyrant, wheter in ambition or in practice of his private empire.

To believe that TIM wants the collector base to save the world, there has to be something behind it for him,

He doesn't just want it to save the world: he also wants to use it to advance human interests and dominance.

He, uh, tells you this flat out.

Now, whether you think him trying to pursue such is worse than possibly not saving the world, in which case his efforts never matter...

i doubt he could go public anyway too many people would want to kill him. 

He's pretty much a total unknown. Shepard is one of the few non-trusted to see his face.

[Whatever42]

Overlord was not indoctrination. It was an attempt to create a figurehead that the Geth would follow. It was basically what the creator of presidential candidates and boy bands do every day. Its what marketers do when they put a babe in the car booths, taking advantage of your hormones and instincts. Now many people argue that is evil but its not indoctrination.

We would be looking to create an ally of the Geth. Sure, we would be presenting a figure to them that we know has undue influence because it would be designed to strike every right note with them but it doesn't abrogate their free will.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 03 février 2011 - 11:07 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TIM's never given signs of being a tyrant, wheter in ambition or in practice of his private empire.

What do you consider 'the signs?'

He doesn't just want it to save the world: he also wants to use it to advance human interests and dominance.

He, uh, tells you this flat out.

Someone who lies to you about other things should obviously be trusted on everything else....

Now, whether you think him trying to pursue such is worse than possibly not saving the world, in which case his efforts never matter...

That presupposes he is actually saving the world. The jury is still out on that, especially whether he is endangering the world more than he is 'saving' it.

[Lewie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Why not to trust him? His past experiments etc i don't need to go over it all again.

His past experiments don't make him a liar. Just a bad man.

Master liars are also master manipulators and do you honestly believe he wouldn't do those experiments again?

He's never once said or implied he wouldn't.

He knew what was going on with David as long as he gets the results he wants, he talks about an 'olive branch' from the quarians then Veetor, if you hand him over is sent back a wreck because of what they did to him yet, as long as he gets the results he wants. That is all TIM wants is results to further his 'goal'. Iv thought the man has became an obsessive tyrant who has lost sight of things. He doesn't have to be all flowers and bunnies thats nonsense the most hardened generals in the army earn respect, without the torture and so on.

And some shadowy leaders don't earn the postive respect of their sometimes-foes.

TIM's never given signs of being a tyrant, wheter in ambition or in practice of his private empire.

To believe that TIM wants the collector base to save the world, there has to be something behind it for him,

He doesn't just want it to save the world: he also wants to use it to advance human interests and dominance.

He, uh, tells you this flat out.

Now, whether you think him trying to pursue such is worse than possibly not saving the world, in which case his efforts never matter...

i doubt he could go public anyway too many people would want to kill him. 

He's pretty much a total unknown. Shepard is one of the few non-trusted to see his face.

Ok, so if he wants 'human dominance' in the galaxy exactly what does that mean? That aliens wouldn't be welcome on earth? He is just suddenly the good guy? Dominance is a strong word he uses. That he would help technology and be an ambassador for government? lol. He is off his rocker. What he has done in space will follow him the alliance know enough thats just heresay but he would know that many know what he has done. Will he save earth and go back into space? His ultimate goal is questionable. 

[Dean_the_Young]

louise101 wrote...

Ok, so if he wants 'human dominance' in the galaxy exactly what does that mean? That aliens wouldn't be welcome on earth? He is just suddenly the good guy? Dominance is a strong word he uses. That he would help technology and be an ambassador for government? lol.

Dominance doesn't mean that, but dominance doesn't mean a lot of things. Dominance is a very broad category: your parents are dominant over you, the police are dominant over you, you are dominant over your children, you are dominant over your pets, the leader of your group of friends is dominant over you...

Dominance is broad, not necessarily negative, and not innately sinister.

He is off his rocker. What he has done in space will follow him the alliance know enough thats just heresay but he would know that many know what he has done. Will he save earth and go back into space? His ultimate goal is questionable. 

Ultimate goal? Sure. Part of his motivation? Nothing has opposed, and everything has suggested, his extreme in action but sincere desire and advocacy for Humanity.

It's not that you can't trust TIM. It's that you don't like what you can trust him to do, which is to lie, cheat, murder, steal, and manipulate in the name of Human advancement. In general, you can very much trust him to do what he says he intends.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 février 2011 - 11:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TIM's never given signs of being a tyrant, wheter in ambition or in practice of his private empire.

What do you consider 'the signs?'

Combinations of-

Ever-present figures of enforcement and authority
Micromanaging
Advocacy of territorial conquest
Advocacy of war in general
Hostility to any and all opposition figures
Killing anyone you can get away with on basis of disagreement
Seeking outright control of the media
Outright control of the government
Establishing or advocating a police state
Insatiable ego, a need to be publicly recognized and obeyed

He doesn't just want it to save the world: he also wants to use it to advance human interests and dominance.

He, uh, tells you this flat out.

Someone who lies to you about other things should obviously be trusted on everything else....

In this case, not believing him actually mitigates a concern. Since little has demonstrated him as interested in personal power for his own sake, not pursuing the advance of Human Interests would be, in the alternative not dis-inclined by his character and actions, more pursual of the galactic common goal.

That presupposes he is actually saving the world. The jury is still out on that, especially whether he is endangering the world more than he is 'saving' it.

He certainly is helping save the world, and can do more to help with the Base.

Indications he is endangering it, however...

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You lack perspective of scale.

Besides the lack of indication that the virus could work that way (unlike, say, the Heretic virus), as opposed to being limited by proximity, the Reapers goal was never subjugation, but extinction. The two aren't comparable.

I really doubt TIM's intent was a 'catch and release' program for Geth. How is it different than what happened with the Protheans or whatever race became the Keepers? It is exactly comperable.

He probably would. He's shown no inclination or intent to use it to genocide them, though, which is a huge difference from the Reapers.

How does 'repurposing' a race differ materially from Genocide? He certainly wasn't going to let the Geth retain free will, nor would he any organic race he could control.

Because Cerberus recognizes the Reapers as the greater threat being ignorred, not that the Geth are unthreatening.

And yet Overlord is designed against Geth, not Reapers. Keep it in context.

[Lewie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Ok, so if he wants 'human dominance' in the galaxy exactly what does that mean? That aliens wouldn't be welcome on earth? He is just suddenly the good guy? Dominance is a strong word he uses. That he would help technology and be an ambassador for government? lol.

Dominance doesn't mean that, but dominance doesn't mean a lot of things. Dominance is a very broad category: your parents are dominant over you, the police are dominant over you, you are dominant over your children, you are dominant over your pets, the leader of your group of friends is dominant over you...

Dominance is broad, not necessarily negative, and not innately sinister.

He is off his rocker. What he has done in space will follow him the alliance know enough thats just heresay but he would know that many know what he has done. Will he save earth and go back into space? His ultimate goal is questionable. 

Ultimate goal? Sure. Part of his motivation? Nothing has opposed, and everything has suggested, his extreme in action but sincere desire and advocacy for Humanity.

Sincere lol, thats not a word you can use when you talk about TIM. You are now using the word dominance in a small sense to explain it but TIM is speaking as in, the galaxy. If you don't even understand what he means by that you can't say he is right. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

I really doubt TIM's intent was a 'catch and release' program for Geth. How is it different than what happened with the Protheans or whatever race became the Keepers? It is exactly comperable.

How is it different? For one important thing, the Overlord VI was intended as an object to revere, not to rewrite and transform the Geth. It wasn't projected as, say, a Heretic Virus (to change the very basis of Geth) or the Alarai project (to forcibly hack them). It took what the Geth were, and took advantage of it to stop the fighting. To work with, not to overwrite, their wills.

How does 'repurposing' a race differ materially from Genocide?

Lots and lots of death.

(And no indication of genetic rewriting either.)

 He certainly wasn't going to let the Geth retain free will, nor would he any organic race he could control.

Objection! Rampant speculation and projection of suspcion: TIM's never indicated opposition to free will, only that the free will not be accompanied by the ability of free action against Humans. Cerberus has never indicated interest in being thought police.

And yet Overlord is designed against Geth, not Reapers. Keep it in context.

Uh, because the known avenues to nullify the Geth are different than the Reapers?

There's not a 'either you can prepare against Geth OR prepare against Reapers', especially when preparing against the Geth is preparing against the Reapers intent and forces. Because that is a relevant context: the Geth are dangerous, but they're also Reaper allies, and so being able to nullify them does count as working against the Reapers as well.

But just because Overlord could be used against the Geth doesn't mean that Shepard needed to be, or that it was the best use of Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

louise101 wrote...

Sincere lol, thats not a word you can use when you talk about TIM. You are now using the word dominance in a small sense to explain it but TIM is speaking as in, the galaxy. If you don't even understand what he means by that you can't say he is right. 

Au contraire, I was using dominance to show the incredibly wide sense in which it encompasses. To insist he means the conquest and/or enslavement and subjugation of the aliens is to embrace a terribly narrow definition of dominance.

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
TIM's never given signs of being a tyrant, wheter in ambition or in practice of his private empire.

Ever-present figures of enforcement and authority
Micromanaging
Advocacy of territorial conquest
Advocacy of war in general
Hostility to any and all opposition figures
Killing anyone you can get away with on basis of disagreement
Seeking outright control of the media
Outright control of the government
Establishing or advocating a police state
Insatiable ego, a need to be publicly recognized and obeyed

Shadow Broker Dossier

2162 - Infiltration of human media begins, specializing in extrasolar news: Constant Times; Scott Examiner; nascent Galactic Broadcasting Corporation.

This would be a example of controlling the media I assume? 

Then of course Micromanaging is something that TIM does as stated he likes to keep cells small so he can watch over them personally. We can throw in insatiable ego cause he honestly believes his methods are the right one and that Cerberus is humanity. TIM does kill anyone who gets in his way when the chance presents itself but then he also has a mind to use them.

So I guess TIM has shown a few signs then of being a tyrant?

Modifié par Jagri, 03 février 2011 - 11:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
TIM's never given signs of being a tyrant, wheter in ambition or in practice of his private empire.

Ever-present figures of enforcement and authority
Micromanaging
Advocacy of territorial conquest
Advocacy of war in general
Hostility to any and all opposition figures
Killing anyone you can get away with on basis of disagreement
Seeking outright control of the media
Outright control of the government
Establishing or advocating a police state
Insatiable ego, a need to be publicly recognized and obeyed

Shadow Broker Dossier

2162 - Infiltration of human media begins, specializing in extrasolar news: Constant Times; Scott Examiner; nascent Galactic Broadcasting Corporation.

This would be a example of controlling the media I assume?

No. Infiltration is not control, nor is influence.

Then of course Micromanaging is something that TIM does as stated he likes to keep cells small so he can watch over them personally.

A claim by EDI which, besides the immediate logical implausibility given demonstrated Cerberus size and scope, is contradicted in every other instance and testimony we have within Cerberus, from Teltin to Overlord to Lazarus pre-Shepard and Lazarus post-Shepard and Jacob and Miranda's recollections.

We can throw in insatiable ego cause he honestly believes his methods are the right one and that Cerberus is humanity. TIM does kill anyone who gets in his way when the chance presents itself but then he also has a mind to use them.

Quite the opposite: the number of people who oppose TIM, but whom he could kill with relatively little notice or trouble, is quite large. TIM doesn't routinely engage in assassination to kill people for disagreeing, but when doing so furthers particular ambitions. The difference between business and personal ego.

So I guess TIM has shown a few signs then of being a tyrant?

By your usage? No.

[Whatever42]

Jagri wrote...
Shadow Broker Dossier

2162 - Infiltration of human media begins, specializing in extrasolar news: Constant Times; Scott Examiner; nascent Galactic Broadcasting Corporation.

This would be a example of controlling the media I assume? 

Then of course Micromanaging is something that TIM does as stated he likes to keep cells small so he can watch over them personally. We can throw in insatiable ego cause he honestly believes his methods are the right one and that Cerberus is humanity. TIM does kill anyone who gets in his way when the chance presents itself but then he also has a mind to use them.

So I guess TIM has shown a few signs then of being a tyrant?

TIM resurrected Shepard with no control chip.
Shepard can totally defy TIM at the end and blow that base to dust and TIM still wants Shepard on team.
EDI may have had blocks but she was not programmed to obey TIM.
Jacob's deal with TIM is that he can walk away at any time.

TIM is not in this for his ego. He is not controlling. He may be a zealot but he is not a tyrant.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How is it different? For one important thing, the Overlord VI was intended as an object to revere, not to rewrite and transform the Geth. It wasn't projected as, say, a Heretic Virus (to change the very basis of Geth) or the Alarai project (to forcibly hack them). It took what the Geth were, and took advantage of it to stop the fighting. To work with, not to overwrite, their wills.

Lots and lots of death.

(And no indication of genetic rewriting either.)

And after they are under control, what is the plan? I repeat. It is simply not believable that TIM's plan is to simply stop the fighting and invite the Geth in for tea and treaty negotiations.

Uh, because the known avenues to nullify the Geth are different than the Reapers?

There's not a 'either you can prepare against Geth OR prepare against Reapers', especially when preparing against the Geth is preparing against the Reapers intent and forces. Because that is a relevant context: the Geth are dangerous, but they're also Reaper allies, and so being able to nullify them does count as working against the Reapers as well.

But just because Overlord could be used against the Geth doesn't mean that Shepard needed to be, or that it was the best use of Shepard.

Yes, they are different. Geth ships weren't immune to enemy fire and were pretty obviously limited to their own tech. TIM considers pursuing the Geth A WASTE OF TIME. In his openning monologue, he is indignent about it. Those are not the words of someone who considers them anything you are suggesting.

You might personally believe otherwise, but TIM doesn't seem to. 

[Dean_the_Young]

'Zealot but not a tyrant' is a pretty good summation of it.



TIM's conceptually similar to a Justicar: skilled, devoted to a noble enough idea, capable and willing to carry out morally and ethically atrocious things in pursuit of that ideal.