965 réponses à ce sujet

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
TIM's never given signs of being a tyrant, wheter in ambition or in practice of his private empire.

Ever-present figures of enforcement and authority
Micromanaging
Advocacy of territorial conquest
Advocacy of war in general
Hostility to any and all opposition figures
Killing anyone you can get away with on basis of disagreement
Seeking outright control of the media
Outright control of the government
Establishing or advocating a police state
Insatiable ego, a need to be publicly recognized and obeyed

Shadow Broker Dossier

2162 - Infiltration of human media begins, specializing in extrasolar news: Constant Times; Scott Examiner; nascent Galactic Broadcasting Corporation.

This would be a example of controlling the media I assume?

No. Infiltration is not control, nor is influence.

Then of course Micromanaging is something that TIM does as stated he likes to keep cells small so he can watch over them personally.

A claim by EDI which, besides the immediate logical implausibility given demonstrated Cerberus size and scope, is contradicted in every other instance and testimony we have within Cerberus, from Teltin to Overlord to Lazarus pre-Shepard and Lazarus post-Shepard and Jacob and Miranda's recollections.

We can throw in insatiable ego cause he honestly believes his methods are the right one and that Cerberus is humanity. TIM does kill anyone who gets in his way when the chance presents itself but then he also has a mind to use them.

Quite the opposite: the number of people who oppose TIM, but whom he could kill with relatively little notice or trouble, is quite large. TIM doesn't routinely engage in assassination to kill people for disagreeing, but when doing so furthers particular ambitions. The difference between business and personal ego.

So I guess TIM has shown a few signs then of being a tyrant?

By your usage? No.

So you would ignore hard facts in light of speculations on your part in regards to EDI's claims or the level that Cerberus has Infiltrated human media has little to no influence or control over the news? Well I guess then established in game content is less important then your speculations.

Modifié par Jagri, 04 février 2011 - 12:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

And after they are under control, what is the plan? I repeat. It is simply not believable that TIM's plan is to simply stop the fighting and invite the Geth in for tea and treaty negotiations.

They aren't under direct control. That's the point.

They're influenced, but the extent of that influence is not likely to be unlimited or equivalent to indoctrination.

Yes, they are different. Geth ships weren't immune to enemy fire and were pretty obviously limited to their own tech. TIM considers pursuing the Geth A WASTE OF TIME.

TIM considers sending Shepard on weeks of patroling in the Terminus in pursuit of Geth a waste of Shepard, especially in light of the true threat. It is not a dismissal of the Geth, as a whole, as irrelevant.

There is a difference.

You might personally believe otherwise, but TIM doesn't seem to. 

I might as well say the same to you.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'Zealot but not a tyrant' is a pretty good summation of it.

TIM's conceptually similar to a Justicar: skilled, devoted to a noble enough idea, capable and willing to carry out morally and ethically atrocious things in pursuit of that ideal.

It's worth pointing out that the only thing justicars do is kill. They don't torture, unlike TIM.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

So you would ignore hard facts in light of speculations on your part in regards to EDI's claims

No, I would not.

What we have, however, is contradictory 'hard facts': EDI's testimony, limited as her knoweldge is about Cerberus (really, the blocks didn't expand much), versus the testimony, demonstration, and our own experiences working within Cerberus. One set certainly is harder than the others, and in light of inconsistencies I tend to favor the one logically consistent with the rest of the franchise.

or the level that Cerberus has Infiltrated human media has little to no influence or control over the news?

And what level do you assert? Because CDN already had a 'Cerberus is in the media, witch hunt!' storyline, and the point of that was that it was a red scare flop.

Well I guess then established in game content is less important then your speculations.

Nope.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 février 2011 - 12:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'Zealot but not a tyrant' is a pretty good summation of it.

TIM's conceptually similar to a Justicar: skilled, devoted to a noble enough idea, capable and willing to carry out morally and ethically atrocious things in pursuit of that ideal.

It's worth pointing out that the only thing justicars do is kill. They don't torture, unlike TIM.

And they're willing to kill alot. If the galaxy was only filled with unjust people, they'd be killing till there are no unjust people left.

The extents to which they are allowed to go are also unclear. But regardless, I said conceptually similar, not identical in practice, Xil.

[Lewie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Sincere lol, thats not a word you can use when you talk about TIM. You are now using the word dominance in a small sense to explain it but TIM is speaking as in, the galaxy. If you don't even understand what he means by that you can't say he is right. 

Au contraire, I was using dominance to show the incredibly wide sense in which it encompasses. To insist he means the conquest and/or enslavement and subjugation of the aliens is to embrace a terribly narrow definition of dominance.

I did not say that TIM will subsequently conquer or enslave aliens... ? He himself said 'human dominance in the galaxy and beyond'. Thats a pretty wide area to cover. You have no idea, as to what he means to do and back him regardless. 

At any rate, its a choice either way. 

[Katamariguy]

Hmmm... let's count the evidence.



Human dominance

Horrific Experimentation

Assassination

Twisted sense of ethics

[kimbabini]

probably gonna cause the end of humanity jus sayin guyz

[Whatever42]

So much of that "evidence" of Cerberus's evil is contradictory, though.

So Cerberus experimented on thresher maws and had them attack a marine unit? Seriously, what scientific use would that have? And what could possibly explain years of experimentation on that soldier? It doesn't make any sense.There is simply no conceivable experiment there.

We have to remember that Cerberus is not well liked by the establishment, who does control the media. There is a real possibility that they have been villified. I agree that Cerberus gave them a lot to work with but I suspect much of what we "know" is just conspiracy theory.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 04 février 2011 - 12:34 .

[Moiaussi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

TIM resurrected Shepard with no control chip.

So we are told. He also told everyone that there was a Turian distress call.

Shepard can totally defy TIM at the end and blow that base to dust and TIM still wants Shepard on team.

This isn't entirely clear.... Shepard can't so much as move the ship until talking to TIM any time TIM calls. Shepard still being useful to TIM or for that matter, TIM trying to retain some control doesn't indicate a lack of desire.

EDI may have had blocks but she was not programmed to obey TIM.

We don't know either way. Joker's manual override of the blocks might have eliminated much if not all.

Jacob's deal with TIM is that he can walk away at any time.

Again, that is a deal from someone who lied to them about other things. Why would the deal not be in question too?

TIM is not in this for his ego. He is not controlling. He may be a zealot but he is not a tyrant.

He might not be in it for his ego directly, but believing and acting like he is the only one in the universe who can save everyone certainly suggests his ego is involved. He certainly doesn't consider Shepard a partner or equal...

[Moiaussi]

Also not being good at being a tyrant doesn't mean he isn't one.

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And what level do you assert? Because CDN already had a 'Cerberus is in the media, witch hunt!' storyline, and the point of that was that it was a red scare flop.

I assert they have a level of influence in which Cerberus was exposed once and could be exposed again but remain relatively unknown to the galaxy. Then again Cerberus exsistance in the public mind is always a highly debated topic.

[Moiaussi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So much of that "evidence" of Cerberus's evil is contradictory, though.

So Cerberus experimented on thresher maws and had them attack a marine unit? Seriously, what scientific use would that have? And what could possibly explain years of experimentation on that soldier? It doesn't make any sense.There is simply no conceivable experiment there.

We have to remember that Cerberus is not well liked by the establishment, who does control the media. There is a real possibility that they have been villified. I agree that Cerberus gave them a lot to work with but I suspect much of what we "know" is just conspiracy theory.

Akuze wasn't Cerberus being kept down by 'the Man', it really happened and Cerberus was really involved. Sole survivor shepard was there. Toombs was there. Kahoku was killed by Cerberus for investigating.

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...

 In his openning monologue, he is indign[a]nt about it.

That was Miranda.  TIM just calmly explains the state-of-affairs in your initial dialogues with him.

[kimbabini]

wut if he cnt b judgd by aour moralz cuz he aint humn jus sayin

[KhaysunDei]

I don't think he's evil, more like like a guy willing to sacrifice a lot of things.  I'd say he's alright, but he can get pretty extreme in certain situations.

[Lewie]

Moiaussi wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So much of that "evidence" of Cerberus's evil is contradictory, though.

So Cerberus experimented on thresher maws and had them attack a marine unit? Seriously, what scientific use would that have? And what could possibly explain years of experimentation on that soldier? It doesn't make any sense.There is simply no conceivable experiment there.

We have to remember that Cerberus is not well liked by the establishment, who does control the media. There is a real possibility that they have been villified. I agree that Cerberus gave them a lot to work with but I suspect much of what we "know" is just conspiracy theory.

Akuze wasn't Cerberus being kept down by 'the Man', it really happened and Cerberus was really involved. Sole survivor shepard was there. Toombs was there. Kahoku was killed by Cerberus for investigating.

He oversees every project personally. It is not contradictory the evidence is there 'or' TIM is a failure who can't control his own companys cells. When you are resurrected and leave the base at the start it is destroyed... for a reason. TIM has to cover his tracks, nevermind that anyone may have been alive, everyone is expendable.

[Schneidend]

Well they actually don't destroy Lazarus station. They reclaim it. That's how you get the Blood Dragon Armor. It was originally waiting for you when you woke up, was lost in the mech attack, and was subsequently found once more.

[Whatever42]

"Oversees" is simply an administrative function. He receives reports and expenses; he is not in operational command. It's clear from Archer at Overlord and the lead scientists logs from Teltin that they withhold information from the illusive man, both poor results and some of their more extreme actions.



TIM hires people with a zealous drive to get results and then gives them considerable autonomy. That has led to disasters but also to successes. I think of TIM as a venture capitalist. Seed lots of companies of people who respect with business plans you believe in and sit back. Most will fail but if only a few succeed, you are far ahead in the game.

[Zulu_DFA]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

"Oversees" is simply an administrative function. He receives reports and expenses; he is not in operational command. It's clear from Archer at Overlord and the lead scientists logs from Teltin that they withhold information from the illusive man, both poor results and some of their more extreme actions.

TIM hires people with a zealous drive to get results and then gives them considerable autonomy. That has led to disasters but also to successes. I think of TIM as a venture capitalist. Seed lots of companies of people who respect with business plans you believe in and sit back. Most will fail but if only a few succeed, you are far ahead in the game.

This is what is held against him, though. TIM sitting back and not holding anyone's hands equals him giving green light to any kind of action. There is indeed little difference between him giving his silent consent to the "evil experiments" by choosing not to know about them, and giving his silent consent by knowing and choosing not to interfere, before it finally boils over. And it even can't be determined which is it in each case by an outside party such as Shepard.

[PrinceLionheart]

I'm far from a Cerberus supporter, but I don't think The Illusive man is evil. Overly ambitious yes, but not evil. I normally don't hand him the Collector Ship because I'm all about keeping power checks, hence why I also don't cure the genophage and destroy the Heretics.

Hence why True Neutrals are the real saviors of the galaxy.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 04 février 2011 - 05:26 .

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

 In his openning monologue, he is indign[a]nt about it.

That was Miranda.  TIM just calmly explains the state-of-affairs in your initial dialogues with him.

I just re-watched it. You are right, however TIM doesn't contradict her. Of course he doesn't contradict her when she says the Council will follow Shepard, either....

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is what is held against him, though. TIM sitting back and not holding anyone's hands equals him giving green light to any kind of action. There is indeed little difference between him giving his silent consent to the "evil experiments" by choosing not to know about them, and giving his silent consent by knowing and choosing not to interfere, before it finally boils over. And it even can't be determined which is it in each case by an outside party such as Shepard.

What you are essentially saying is that TIM isn't really in command. He merely tosses money at what are essentially private projects he doesn't oversee.

He isn't evil at all? He just makes a lot of foolish investments and is actually a victim of con men who bilk him (and Cerberus' backers) for all they can get? He doesn't care how they spend the money or if they actually accomplish anything?

No wonder you like Cerberus so much.... If I was a Cerberus operative in your new version of said agency, I would be 'researching' some luxury planet somewhere..... advancing human dominance in the field of my living a life of luxury.

Either leadership leads, or leadership is the wrong term. Is TIM in charge or not? And routine inspections, personel rotations, internal and external audits, etc, are standard business practice to reduce the risks of researchers either researching local pubs or torturing people just in case they discover something useful in doing so.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

 In his openning monologue, he is indign[a]nt about it.

That was Miranda.  TIM just calmly explains the state-of-affairs in your initial dialogues with him.

I just re-watched it. You are right, however TIM doesn't contradict her. Of course he doesn't contradict her when she says the Council will follow Shepard, either....

What's the most funny is how Miranda says "Shepard did everything right" both if you saved the Council in ME1, and if you didn't.

And TIM does contradict Miranda, as well as his own instruction ("See to it we don't lose him") in Redemption, when he orders Miranda to hold back and not intercept Tazzik -- just to give Feron a chance to silently infiltrate the Shadow Broker's base.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is what is held against him, though. TIM sitting back and not holding anyone's hands equals him giving green light to any kind of action. There is indeed little difference between him giving his silent consent to the "evil experiments" by choosing not to know about them, and giving his silent consent by knowing and choosing not to interfere, before it finally boils over. And it even can't be determined which is it in each case by an outside party such as Shepard.

What you are essentially saying is that TIM isn't really in command. He merely tosses money at what are essentially private projects he doesn't oversee.

He isn't evil at all? He just makes a lot of foolish investments and is actually a victim of con men who bilk him (and Cerberus' backers) for all they can get? He doesn't care how they spend the money or if they actually accomplish anything?

No wonder you like Cerberus so much.... If I was a Cerberus operative in your new version of said agency, I would be 'researching' some luxury planet somewhere..... advancing human dominance in the field of my living a life of luxury.

Either leadership leads, or leadership is the wrong term. Is TIM in charge or not? And routine inspections, personel rotations, internal and external audits, etc, are standard business practice to reduce the risks of researchers either researching local pubs or torturing people just in case they discover something useful in doing so.

You've completely missed my point. Actually I was (again) doing your job of presenting TIM as an evil guy.

But since you ask, yes, TIM is in charge and I personally think, that he knew very well, what was going on at Teltin. He just chose not to interfere. BTW, the message stating that TIM was already going to shut the project down, when the riot occured, suggests that he was aware of its state and displeased with it. The latter part, however, may be the impression he wants to create on Shepard, so the whole message may be a lie, and, in fact, he didn't send the disposal team until the riot occured, in which case, upon verification that SuZe escaped, the "We're rogue" logs could have been planted specifically to bleach him out in case... somebody comes by.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 février 2011 - 09:39 .