Moiaussi wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
It's, of course, more complicated than that. But if a "non-yes-man" goes so far as to refuse doing something a leader insists on doing, just becasue he thinks it might get him killed, he isn't loyal. Otherwise, he needs a clear indication that the leader is mistaken or a traitor.
Anyway, you alien-lovers might want to think of the "good" turians, when it comes to things such as loyalty.
Wait... where was there any indication that Shepard would even have considered backing down on anything 'because he might have been killed?' Straw man....
This thread. It is argued that even if Shepard is "loyal" to Cerberus, he should not trust TIM, because the latter might want to expend him at some point. And it is implied that at that point Shepard should turn against TIM, overtake Cerberus, or what-not. And that's outstanding by me, as long as you don't call such a Shepard "Cerebrus loyalist".
Moiaussi wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
My theory is that MIRANDA HACKED THE MECHS. On TIM's orders. Becasue TIM knew all along about Wilson's relations with the Shadow Broker, and that the Lazarus Project was guaranteed to succeed as long as the enemy (Collectors) thought they had the upper hand. A spy game.
The theory "TIM knew about the Wilson-TSB-Collectors link" provides explanation, why TIM wouldn't have Shepard implanted with a control chip, or otherwise "altered", even though he had to anticipate a situation like "I. P. Shepard blows up the C-Base" arising in the future. The thing is, "exactly as you were" wasn't actually TIM's wish, but the Collectors' wish, so TIM had to put up with it, and deal with whatever Shepard he had at the end of Wilson's work.
Ok... so the success of any given project or research is somehow dependant on the thoughts of a third party not on the scene?
Yes, provided, that the "third party" is, in fact, the "second party", and can arrive on "the scene" any time it thinks its interests are being crossed, but might contribut to the success of the project a lot, as long as it thinks the result will go its way.
Moiaussi wrote...
You are way out in left field here. If nothing else a business deal with the Collectors regarding SHepard's body does not imply full collusion/alliance/dump of all data. If Miranda and/or Jacob triggered the Mechs it is far more likely it was done to keep Shepard off guard to get him to meet with TIM rather than actually consider his options and/or simply shoot every Cerberus operative in sight.
Shoot with what? If it wasn't for Miranda, there wouldn't have been any pistol in that locker, and Shepard wouldn't even have awoken.
Moiaussi wrote...
This way they 'save' him. Shepard is a complete idiot about it though.. doesn't even look at the mech controls, doesn't even consider finding a com room or just defeating the mechs... it isn't like he hasn't faced those models before and come out just fine..... He doesn't even play hard ball right back and say 'look you spent all this effort bringing me back. I doubt you did it just to watch me die on this station. If I was brought back to fight reapers as you say, rather than as some glorified errand boy for an organization that has given every reason to shoot them on sight, let me make my own decisions. If you are on the level, we can work together, but that doesn't mean I have to work for you.'
If it can solace you in any way, be informed that a "Cerberus Loyalist" is given even less opportunity to express his devotion.
Moiaussi wrote...
The point, however, of my "Miranda was wrong about the control chip" assertion is that both Shepard and TIM (whatever his true reason) disagree with her, so either way ("good" and "good for Cebrerus") she was wrong.
Aren't you completely discounting the concept that TIM might have been wrong? At least from Cerberus' point of view? And it might yet turn out that such a chip is buried in there and either TIM couldn't invoke it at the base (likely due to the location), or he just hasn't had the need to yet. Miranda could have lied to Shepard about it under orders.
Cerberus point of view on Shepard should have varied, depending on Shepard's actions in ME1. There is indeed zero reason for a control chip in the head of a renegade human supremacist (when Shepard has indeed done everything right). But there is all the reason for a control chip in the head of a paragon alien-lover (and naturally Miranda is mistaken about him in the intro). But since in both cases the result is the same, namely TIM prohibits the control chip, we have to assume that there must be additional reasoning we're not directly informed of.
And TIM can't really be wrong about his "no chip" order. Becasue if he is, that's only from the Cerberus interests stanpoint. And if the player determines the situation from that standpoint, that only means this current Shepard is a Cerberus loyalist and the chip is really unnecessary, and TIM is right. (So this situation is self-contradictory and therefore impossible). But if the player judges the situation from any other (selfish, common morality, alien-loving) standpoint, he can't help but agree with TIM on this one: a chip in Shepard's head would've been seriously wrong, and Miranda sucks again.
Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 février 2011 - 12:13 .
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