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[Fromyou]

800 comments (does happy dance)

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

The Illusive Man and his backers are businessmen.  And in just about every fictional sci-fi universe, businessmen are grossly removed from morality, common sense, and the bulk of humanity.  It kind of makes sense; rich people are plenty messed up nowadays, just imagine how ridiculous it could get 200 years in the future.

When you live on an alien planet you had terraformed to your exacting specifications; when you can genetically engineer a series of cloned genius-biotic-stripper daughters; then suddenly you might start thinking you can act like a comicbook supervillain, ignoring how it was you got all that power in the first place. 

Why would you need super-soldiers or doomsday devices to dominate the galaxy when plain old economics has been working just fine for you up until that point?  Why not plow all that money you'd be spending on super biotics and armies of dangerous xenomorphs into practical things like military spending or economic growth?

I guess what I'm asking is...is the Illusive Man just a big con artist?  Is he just preying on eccentric billionaires and deluded xenophobes to keep himself in booze and cigarettes?  They say that past a certain point, the primary purpose of a bureaucracy isn't to perform whatever function it was created for; it's to perpetuate the bureaucracy.  Maybe behind TIM's talk of human dominance and defending the Earth, Cerberus is just a bunch of sad, alienated weirdos getting paid an embarassing amount of money to play around in their own little fantasy land for 30 years (like 3D Realms with guns).

So that's my two cents; maybe it's less about good or evil and more about a couple different shades of greed.

[Zulu_DFA]

TIM is Darth Vader of the ME series.

I mean Shepard is Luke, and the Reapers (Harbinger, if you need personification) are the Emperor.

So in the end TIM will defeat the Reapers at the cost of his life, after Shepard has shown him the errors of his ways (paragon ending).

Alternatively (renegade ending), Shepard can join TIM for good, and after they defeat the Reapers together, they will rule the Galaxy (like Darth Vader proposed to Luke).

Alternatively (bad ending), Shepard will kill TIM, and then inevitably join the Reapers (like the Emperor proposed to Luke), his consciousness will be transfered to the Human-Reaper, while the Galaxy gets reaped.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 février 2011 - 05:57 .

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi why do you just not get it (or refuse to see it), that at the start of the ME2 and even during ME2, Shephard and TIM need each other.



Do you know why? Because even if Shephard absolutely distrusts TIM with every fibre of his being, he (or she) still has a sense of civic duty to find out "What happened to those colonists?" Even if you as a player projects themselves into their Shephard avatar, Shephard still has his or her own motivations.



And that brings me to the point of why Shephard needs TIM, TIM supplies Shephard not only with material assets, but with information and dare I say it; purpose. It may be nice of you to think that Shephard could say 'shove off' to TIM, but Shephard doesn't in universe, no matter what way your ideals are, he or she even puts Akuze behind him/her for the purposes of finding out what happened to those poor poor colonists.



I suppose you could call that 'sloppy writing' but I think its more like Shephard isn't a whining **** and can't change what happened in the past, and recriminations (at that point of time) isn't going to do anyone any favours, lest of all for Shephard.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

Moiaussi why do you just not get it (or refuse to see it), that at the start of the ME2 and even during ME2, Shephard and TIM need each other.

Do you know why? Because even if Shephard absolutely distrusts TIM with every fibre of his being, he (or she) still has a sense of civic duty to find out "What happened to those colonists?" Even if you as a player projects themselves into their Shephard avatar, Shephard still has his or her own motivations.

And that brings me to the point of why Shephard needs TIM, TIM supplies Shephard not only with material assets, but with information and dare I say it; purpose. It may be nice of you to think that Shephard could say 'shove off' to TIM, but Shephard doesn't in universe, no matter what way your ideals are, he or she even puts Akuze behind him/her for the purposes of finding out what happened to those poor poor colonists.

I suppose you could call that 'sloppy writing' but I think its more like Shephard isn't a whining **** and can't change what happened in the past, and recriminations (at that point of time) isn't going to do anyone any favours, lest of all for Shephard.

You are sort of making my point though. TIM is useful to Shepard, yes, but the usefulness is mutual. TIM needs Shepard, too. TIM plays hardball, though and forces Shepard to work for him and to take greater risks than neccessary mostly because Shepard allows it rather than playing hardball right back.

TIM's insistance on being in control and holding back as much information as he does, not just from Shepard but from the rest of the galaxy, reduces the resources available to Shepard and thus reduces the resources available to devise a strat to fight the Reapers.

Doing so out of xenophobia and megolomania makes TIM evil, regardless of his end goals, since those traits actually reduce his chances of success rather than increase them.

[Hela]

Arijharn wrote...
*grand snip*

Doing so out of xenophobia and megolomania makes TIM evil, regardless of his end goals, since those traits actually reduce his chances of success rather than increase them.

Chiming in...a bit. That´s just the part I´ve never seen in TIM. A true renegade at all costs, yes, but productive as hell on the way (not even going to the " botched experiments"-zone here, as there are arguments on both sides).
But never heard him speaking xenophobic. Or megalomanic. I see it more in the way of him having the resources and the clear vision of using those - mostly to fight off the biggest threat at present.
Not to say it´s all justified to the letter, but the reasons might not be so alien-exclusive, human-inclusive.

Modifié par Hela, 07 février 2011 - 05:41 .

[James2912]

Yeah I've never seen TIM make one xenophobic comment. His lovers include aliens, and he works with aliens, Liara for example.

[Moiaussi]

TIM's musings from the prologue of "Ascension":

"Without Cerberus, humanity was doomed to an existance of groveling subserviance at the feet of alien masters. Still, there were those that would call what he did criminal. Unethical. Amoral. HIstory would vindicate him, but until it did, he and his followers were forced to exist in hiding, continuing their work in secret."

[Wulfram]

In the actual game, his comments after the suicide mission about "securing human dominance" and the whole "Cerberus is humanity" stuff count as megalomaniac I think.

[KaOSoFt]

Sorry, I've only read four pages so far, but I've seen people talking about Pragia as an example, and if I remember correctly, there is even a video log where the researcher hopes that the Illusive Man doesn't even get to know about the experiments at least until they are complete, which leads me to believe the Illusive Man wouldn't even have approved the experiments on so many children.

Sure, he'd be willing to sacrifice a single, gifted child in the name of dominance, and while that makes him evil by some people, it's better than multiple test subjects.

Modifié par KaOSoFt, 07 février 2011 - 09:21 .

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...
Doing so out of xenophobia and megolomania makes TIM evil, regardless of his end goals, since those traits actually reduce his chances of success rather than increase them.

I don't think xenophobic is the right word at all to use to be honest. He's fiercely pro-humanist but he isn't out to specifically cripple other species (individuals may be another matter entirely) as much as he is to 'secure and promote Humanity's continual strength.'

For example; I highly doubt (and I doubt due to the nature of what is shown to me by TIM during the events of ME2) that he'd sanction the deployment of explosives or something to cripple Salarian naval assets as much as he'd steal the plans and work off those to generate advances to human technology with the express purpose of exploiting Salarian type invulnerabilities.

He wants to work to overcome enemy resistances if those species want to defeat Humanity, but he isn't going to say deploy those out of hand. If he did, Asari wouldn't be biotics anymore for example.

[Moiaussi]

He has no qualms about ordering hits on Alliance politicians and clergy. Why would he be reluctant to order the same against foreign targets? If he really is in this for humanity, that is?

[Zulu_DFA]

Wulfram wrote...

In the actual game, his comments after the suicide mission about "securing human dominance" and the whole "Cerberus is humanity" stuff count as megalomaniac I think.

"Megalomaniac". The word the mediocrity uses to feel smart and be lazy about the greater projects of the greater people.

[Inverness Moon]

Moiaussi wrote...

TIM's musings from the prologue of "Ascension":

"Without Cerberus, humanity was doomed to an existance of groveling subserviance at the feet of alien masters. Still, there were those that would call what he did criminal. Unethical. Amoral. HIstory would vindicate him, but until it did, he and his followers were forced to exist in hiding, continuing their work in secret."

Have you read Revelation? Groveling subserviance is probably how I'd describe Ambassador Goyle's thoughts before she got a clue and realized humanity doesn't have to take **** from the council because we've got a strong military and are not pushovers like many other races. Cerberus promotes the strength that kept the Council from imposing on humanity's sovereignty and development.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 08 février 2011 - 04:12 .

[aeetos21]

TIM is an ultra-nationalist, extreme devotion to ones own country (or species in this case) at the cost of international (intergalactic) cooperation. Or in other words: "Who cares about the ****ing asari and turians! Let them all die, as long as get what's ours in the process!"

There really aren't any children in the ME universe, they're references but short of Miranda's kid sister? I think if we did see more, and we see the effects that Cerberus and other organizations like it have done to truly innocent and helpless people in order to meet their own ends then yeah, it'd be a bit easier to imagine. But to show dead children on Eden Prime, or the dead kids on Pragia, or the dead kids wherever would be too taboo in our culture so subconsciously the impact of some of the things we have seen so far in the ME universe really hasn't been felt full force yet and, I hope, never will becuase I'm with society on this one. I could live without seeing that kind  of ****, even if its only fictional and in a video game.

Getting back on topic, is TIM really evil? I don't see him above killing a kid if it could somehow help serve humanity's interests, so yeah. In my opinion that makes him lawful evil, like Saren. I mean if he thought that humanity could coexist with the reapers then he'd do the same exact thing Saren did in ME1. And if you want to argue that he only has humanity's best interests at heart, well so did Hitler (another ultra-nationalist) with Germany - that doesn't excuse his crimes.

Edit: Or, picture it like this. If there was a rogue asari commando operation or a renegade turian outfit running around pulling the types of operations that Cerberus did against humanity and other races? I would bet dollars versus rubles that every single Cerberus supporter on these forums would be foaming at the mouth wanting to take those organizations down. Hyocrisy knows no bounds.

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 février 2011 - 04:32 .

[Inverness Moon]

aeetos21 wrote...

TIM is an ultra-nationalist, extreme devotion to ones own country (or species in this case) at the cost of international (intergalactic) cooperation. Or in other words: "Who cares about the ****ing asari and turians! Let them all die, as long as get what's ours in the process!"

This is completely inaccurate, in my opinion. I haven't looked at the rest of your post though.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 08 février 2011 - 04:49 .

[aeetos21]

How is it innacurate? Do you want more definitions?

freedictionary.com, thesaurus.com, yourdictionary.com, wordiq.com, answers.com

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 février 2011 - 05:01 .

[Zulu_DFA]

aeetos21 wrote...

TIM is an ultra-nationalist, extreme devotion to ones own country (or species in this case) at the cost of international (intergalactic) cooperation. Or in other words: "Who cares about the ****ing asari and turians! Let them all die, as long as get what's ours in the process!"

First off, why should one care about some other nation (race) at all?

But even from an "internationalist" PoV TIM's actions and goals are justified, since it's established that the Humans are the most (or, more accurately, the only one) progressive race in the Galaxy. Others just exult in mild collective hedonism, or persist in some kind of  folly.

He isn't a cheap bigot, who denies any other race's member equality with any Human. He just judges everybody for what they are. He has no problem with emplying Asari and Drell as key agents in one of the most important Cerberus' missions ever. He has no problem establishing partnership with a predominantly alien crime syndicate. He is just a businessman.


And, BTW, FYI:

"Intergalactic" = between galaxies, like between the Milky Way and Andromeda.
Between star systems and clusters, within one galaxy = "interstellar", "galactic".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 février 2011 - 05:18 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

In the actual game, his comments after the suicide mission about "securing human dominance" and the whole "Cerberus is humanity" stuff count as megalomaniac I think.

"Megalomaniac". The word the mediocrity uses to feel smart and be lazy about the greater projects of the greater people.

"Trolling" The word used to describe anyone who impiles anyone using the word "megalomaniac" is mediocre.

[aeetos21]

"Interstellar" then.

"the only one) progressive race in the galaxy..." ?

So that's why humanity came up with the idea of thermal clips, and that's why we learned biotics all on our own, and that's why humanity was the one to drive the rachni back, and that's why we defeated the turians without any outside help, and that's why humanity... The gross oversimplification that humanity is the only progressive race does your argument no credit - at least according to the codex.

He's desperate, in ME2. I'm sure it isn't part of normal Cerberus protocol to take on members of different species. I'm sure Tali wasn't the only quarian engineer who knew more about the Normandy's propulsion systems than Ken and Gabby.

"First off, why should one care about some other nation (race) at all?"

You either get this, or you don't. Though I will say, humanity never achieved world peace. They instead found alien life and cultures that were far more different than the other human cultures we've been at war with for millenia. It was only then, with the discovery of alien life, did we form the Systems Alliance. So you figure after we dominate every other race out there (either militarily or economically) then what's left? Do we still hold this "WE ARE HUMANITY" banner up or do we return to fighting amongst each other again? What fits the pattern?

Edit: Also, Zulu, you failed (I repeat failed) to answer my point about TIM willing to kill a child for the "greater good" of humanity. If he was willing to risk destroying an entire quarian ship for the sake of getting one human biotic - what does that say?

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 février 2011 - 05:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

aeetos21 wrote...

So that's why humanity came up with the idea of thermal clips,

Since it's an obvious retcon and a gameplay mechanic, and the Codex explanation is in contradiction with the game material (Jacob's mission)., either the cilps were always there or it's a Shepard's delusion (nobody ever runs out of ammo except him).

aeetos21 wrote...

and that's why we learned biotics all on our own,

Pretty much. With the Teltin project, Humanity became capable of prodicing biotics at par with the Asari matrirachs.

aeetos21 wrote...

and that's why humanity was the one to drive the rachni back,

You kidding? Humanity wasn't even around back then, and BTW, at that time the Council races hadn't stagnated yet. They have stagnated after the Krogan rebellions though.

"Progressive" means ready for change, and willing to intensify and expand the power civilization has over environment. The pace of development is what counts, and most races have it at zero. For all we know, the Krogans were the first race to achieve nuclear fission technology. Didn't work out well for them. 

aeetos21 wrote...

Though I will say, humanity never achieved world peace. They instead found alien life and cultures that were far more different than the other human cultures we've been at war with for millenia. It was only then, with the discovery of alien life, did we form the Systems Alliance. So you figure after we dominate every other race out there (either militarily or economically) then what's left? Do we still hold this "WE ARE HUMANITY" banner up or do we return to
fighting amongst each other again? What fits the pattern?

Peace is not the natural order of things. Peace is stagnation and death. Life is struggle and progress.

[aeetos21]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Peace is not the natural order of things. Peace is stagnation and death. Life is struggle and progress.

Even when it means killing children? (you still fail to answer this, Zulu)

And as I recall it was the turians who helped helped humanity learn biotics at "brain camp". As for Pragia, torturing and killing kids in the name of human advancement, that's pretty low - especially since the only "success story" was Jack and in the process they completely warped her mind. Not something I'd brag about.

Edit: What do you think would happen if an ultra-nationalist quarian strike team attacked a human refuge ship because it had some type of geth technology on board that it was bringing back to the alliance for study? What would the general reaction be?

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 février 2011 - 05:48 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Since it's an obvious retcon and a gameplay mechanic, and the Codex explanation is in contradiction with the game material (Jacob's mission)., either the cilps were always there or it's a Shepard's delusion (nobody ever runs out of ammo except him).

And once again you toss out anything that disagrees with you as 'just the writing" It doesn't matter whether it was a retcon or not. It wasn't invented by humans.

Pretty much. With the Teltin project, Humanity became capable of prodicing biotics at par with the Asari matrirachs.

Consistantly? Evidence?

You kidding? Humanity wasn't even around back then, and BTW, at that time the Council races hadn't stagnated yet. They have stagnated after the Krogan rebellions though.

"Progressive" means ready for change, and willing to intensify and expand the power civilization has over environment. The pace of development is what counts, and most races have it at zero. For all we know, the Krogans were the first race to achieve nuclear fission technology. Didn't work out well for them. 

And yet half the Normany's upgrades are foreign, not to mention the 'regular' upgrades. Of course I suppose those are all retcons too? Oh wait... human gear is the worst in ME1 ,too.

Peace is not the natural order of things. Peace is stagnation and death. Life is struggle and progress.

Peace is still the goal. Mutual anhilliation is also stagnation and death.

[Zulu_DFA]

aeetos21 wrote...

Even when it means killing children?

OK, so what makes children special? I mean, saying "Killing children is worse than killing adults" translates into "killing adults is not so bad as killing children", and that opens up a hell lot of oppurtunities. Then there is a lot of cultural stuff pertaining to the definition of "children". I mean, your own beloved character implies that she was technically a child herself, when she volunteered into Cerberus. And then there are situations when 10-year-olds can be considered combatants and therefore legitimate targets in a war.

If you consider anyone who breaks the law evil, then go ahead, TIM is evil by this measure. But morality is a sneaky thing when you try to nail it. TIM knows it, so he doesn't bother with it and continues to run his black ops just the way black ops are meant to be run.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

human gear is the worst in ME1

Wrong. Spectre Gear aside (Oddly it had the Alliance emblem on it), best guns and armor came from Rosenkov Materials and Kassa Fabrications (Colossus armor, anyone?) companies.

Only Bio-amps and omni-tools were better from the Asari Serris Council, yet Ariake Tech omnitools were quite decent too.