965 réponses à ce sujet

[aeetos21]

Might makes right, is one fundamental I will never agree with. And if you want an example why, the US economy is missing about 700 billion dollars in debt because some people who had "right" were able to influence congress to "bail them out." So while the top twenty percent of all Americans controls 84% of the nation's wealth (the people with the might or whatever) the bottom 80% get stuck footing the bill? Yes, might makes right. A sound philosophy.

No you are correct in assuming, I am no means a selfless person - though I like to think I try at least. That's about as much as anyone can ask I believe.

I understand TIM's logic, the sense of scale as you put it. That doesn't mean I have to like it, just how I didn't like him sending me to a "disabled collector vessel," though honestly who DIDN'T know that one was a trap?

Ultimately, I see his coming to their aid more as window dressing or PR rather than anything else. But that's just me being a cynic.

As I recall it was one world the turians bombed and they are paying reparations for it. They would've bombed more if it weren't for the council stepping in. My question now, how much money is Cerberus paying in reparations for attacking the quarian fleet? And who stepped in to stop their attacks?

And again we're back to oversight and repercussions, something all of those other groups you've mentioned have to deal with. Cerberus, as I have just shown, does not.

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 février 2011 - 08:55 .

[Arijharn]

In regards to the sense of scale though, there was really no other alternative was there... unless you consider letting the Collector's attack targets blindly (like they have for some time before Shephard was even resurrected) was a viable alternative.



I'm not sure on details about the US government bailing out corporations, but if they were bailing out say financial institutions or big name companies then that's better than the alternative of just letting them collapse, so many people suddenly on welfare payments for example would sledgehammer the US' buying power. The US was between a rock and a hard place though, it would be okay to allow natural selection if say they collapsed independently or whatever, but if you're talking about the GFC then, well... no one (save perhaps anarchists) want to see a depression if they can help it.

[aeetos21]

I don't like it, but I'm not blind. I see the need to lure them there - to Horizon. I just don't feel TIM shares that same regret as Shepard or some other commander would have felt if they were forced to make that decision.

Sure, except those same corporations laid off thousands of workers while the CEOs took their golden parachutes as bonuses and weren't so much as slapped on the wrist, white collar crime basically. This topic is well beyond the norms of this thread to debate, I only used it as an example. Long story short, the seven hundred billion did little in the way to "save us" from financial ruin. If you want to know more type in "derivative gambling" in google or "seven hundred billion dollar fraud." Those should get you on the right track.

Should we have let it "collapse?" No, and I doubt very much it would have but for the sake of argument lets say it would and lets say for the sake of argument that those same corporations and financial institutes did use that money for their proclaimed intention and lets say that we still know where that money currently is and that it didn't disappear right off the books as how it happened. Let's make a wish, close our eyes, hold hands and sing koombuyah and wish we did live in a world like that.

You would think that after that "collapse" that there would be some real financial reform, some real regulation being put out there. And if you think that is what is actually happening right now? I got some prime oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you, real cheap.

How does this all relate to ME? It goes back to that might makes right fundamental we've been discussing and in the case of fraud and screwing over the lower class, the people who don't have a say (not unlike how a few hundred power brokers are making the decision for humanity's future) well... Power corrupts but eventually it catches up to you. No empire has ever stood the test of time.

Except for the reapers though if my Shepard has anything to say about that, their days are numbered.

Modifié par aeetos21, 08 février 2011 - 09:39 .

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

In regards to the sense of scale though, there was really no other alternative was there... unless you consider letting the Collector's attack targets blindly (like they have for some time before Shephard was even resurrected) was a viable alternative.

I'm not sure on details about the US government bailing out corporations, but if they were bailing out say financial institutions or big name companies then that's better than the alternative of just letting them collapse, so many people suddenly on welfare payments for example would sledgehammer the US' buying power. The US was between a rock and a hard place though, it would be okay to allow natural selection if say they collapsed independently or whatever, but if you're talking about the GFC then, well... no one (save perhaps anarchists) want to see a depression if they can help it.

Pinning the collectors to a target made some sense, however not as much as defeating them there would have.

Withholding key intel from nations whom you are not at war with, to whom the enemy you are facing is common, especially withholding evidence that said enemy is a threat in the first place.... that is much harder to forgive.

It is placing everyone at risk over mistrust and megalomania, this theory of TIM's that only he can save everyone (regardless of how many of everyone that costs, and regardless of the degree to which he manipulates events to prevent others from knowing, let alone helping).

[Rockworm503]

ME is too deep and brilliant a game to be dealing in absolutes like good and evil.

[LordJeyl]

If there's one thing about the illusive man that's more important than good or evil, it's that he's just plain stupid. Everything that he and Cerberus has done tends to cause one catastrophic disaster after another. The Lazarus Project, the Teltin felicity on Pragia, Project Overlord, the Derelict Reaper. All of these events had roughly 90%-100% of it's occupants killed when something went wrong. Everything that Cerberus has orchestrated has ended up being a catastrophic disaster to the point where even the Lazarus Project failed due to Shepard being kept unmodified (which can lead to the Illusive Man's ultimate goal failing).



The Illusive Man isn't the kind of guy you would expect to run a whole organization, he's the kind of guy who would fall into a ditch over and over again without even thinking to walk around it. Honestly, I don't understand why the Illusive Man takes up so much attention in Mass Effect 2, nor why he's built to be a this mysterious important guy. He's just a bona fide stupid individual who can't learn from simple mistakes.

[KaOSoFt]

Moiaussi wrote...

Pinning the collectors to a target made some sense, however not as much as defeating them there would have.

Withholding key intel from nations whom you are not at war with, to whom the enemy you are facing is common, especially withholding evidence that said enemy is a threat in the first place.... that is much harder to forgive.

It is placing everyone at risk over mistrust and megalomania, this theory of TIM's that only he can save everyone (regardless of how many of everyone that costs, and regardless of the degree to which he manipulates events to prevent others from knowing, let alone helping).

I don't remember exactly (sorry, you're the experts here), but I think he once replied to Shepard (I think it's after Freedom's Progress), after being told that he should sometimes play nice (sorry, I really don't remember word by word), that it's very difficult for him to do it, since he's a source of mistrust, being "not trusted in the first place", he says, or something like that. I mean, not that such distrust is misplaced, but he's just stating the facts: he can't give such information to other species because 1) they won't trust him since he is Cerberus, and also 2) they are not as badass as Shepard, so they would have been killed anyways.

We should consider as well that the colonies were in the border of the Terminus Systems, which means the Council wouldn't even have cared to start with. Even Councilman Anderson, being a Council member, had to send someone to investigate on his own (whoever survived Virmire on the first game, I think; mine was Operations Chief Ashley Williams), because the Council most likely just dismissed his claims... sorry, it sounds so cool saying it like that.

In any case, even if he had told them about the colonies, were they to cooperate, he would have had to give them details about other projects, like the Normandy SR-2, Lazarus (dangerous project; a new Heil Hitler!? No, thanks), Derelict Reaper, and so forth, that allegedly give humans an edge: the dominance Cerberus wants. Giving them details would have been a requirement for any mission to succeed, but that implies something else: If people truly believed in the Reapers, they would be building dreadnoughts and battle-fortified ships, and wouldn't that be counter-productive for humans in the end? Come on, I can imagine all alien species forgetting about the Reapers, and just having fun and testing their new weapons with humans, and even if this wasn't species-oriented, they would all (including humans, of course) go to war just to get dominance; ALL.

I see your point: no doubt he's ambitious, to the point of being perceived as evil, but trying to think like him makes you see supportive bases to his ideas. Like most have stated here, and Martin Sheen couldn't have said it better: "He's a guy that thinks that the end justifies the means."

Er, sorry if there is any point not clear enough. I tried to say many things, and sometimes English slips my mind (not native speaker).

Have fun!

Modifié par KaOSoFt, 09 février 2011 - 01:49 .

[Fromyou]

Okay just taking a glimpse of recent post. Try not to bring in current situations into this. Sorry just nervous because of the people who got my are the geth justified and now that forum is dead and locked. As I always state keep it clean

[KaOSoFt]

Sorry, didn't really get what you meant... Too much information not related to the Illusive Man?

Modifié par KaOSoFt, 09 février 2011 - 01:46 .

[Moiaussi]

TIM doesn't have to give anything directly. We know from ME1 that he infiltrated the Alliance to high levels. One of them can 'come across' the information.



One of the funny things about evidence is that when it is conclusive, it tends to be so for everyone. For example, it would be really hard for anyone to argue that TIM faked the entire reaper corpse.



In some cases it might be arguable that TIM tainted the evidence by having examined it first, but in most, not so much.



Even at the height of the cold war, the US didn't distrust Russia completely. If they had it would have been too easy for Russia to manipulate... they could have simply told the US the truth and thus protected the truth from being taken seriously.

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...
Pinning the collectors to a target made some sense, however not as much as defeating them there would have.

That's all very well and good in saying so, but how? Presumably you can shoot down the Collector Vessel with your Normandy's weapon system but all that would do is to get it to crater the city (and Shephard) underneath it and quite frankly, that would be just a stupid move. There's frankly no real alternative.

You can't get the vessel to 'stick' to the planet either for reinforcements to arrive because it's not as if the Normandy could 'suppress' the vessel since it out-weighs it by orders of magnitude, and that's even assuming other people would have the political will to help out.

The Council I think is actually right about this, these colonists actually left the Alliance and Council space knowing the risks involved, they can't really expect to be saved by the council either.

Moiaussi wrote...
Withholding key intel from nations whom you are not at war with, to whom the enemy you are facing is common, especially withholding evidence that said enemy is a threat in the first place.... that is much harder to forgive.

Why? The other side doesn't want to become involved, that's proven quite well with the Council's words to Shephard if you saved them, and their complete 'dismissal' of you if they're replacements or they're all human. Additionally, there is no 'common' enemy, the Collector's were only attacking human targets.

The only ally you really have, in the entire game... is TIM and Cerberus. 

Moiaussi wrote...
It is placing everyone at risk over mistrust and megalomania, this theory of TIM's that only he can save everyone (regardless of how many of everyone that costs, and regardless of the degree to which he manipulates events to prevent others from knowing, let alone helping).

I still don't see how this automatically qualifies him as being 'really evil' though. Cerberus can't really be expected to hand over olive branchs right now anyway, since everyone would be wary of it in any case. 

[KaOSoFt]

Arijharn wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
Pinning the collectors to a target made some sense, however not as much as defeating them there would have.

That's all very well and good in saying so, but how? Presumably you can shoot down the Collector Vessel with your Normandy's weapon system but all that would do is to get it to crater the city (and Shephard) underneath it and quite frankly, that would be just a stupid move. There's frankly no real alternative.

You can't get the vessel to 'stick' to the planet either for reinforcements to arrive because it's not as if the Normandy could 'suppress' the vessel since it out-weighs it by orders of magnitude, and that's even assuming other people would have the political will to help out.

The Council I think is actually right about this, these colonists actually left the Alliance and Council space knowing the risks involved, they can't really expect to be saved by the council either.

Moiaussi wrote...
Withholding key intel from nations whom you are not at war with, to whom the enemy you are facing is common, especially withholding evidence that said enemy is a threat in the first place.... that is much harder to forgive.

Why? The other side doesn't want to become involved, that's proven quite well with the Council's words to Shephard if you saved them, and their complete 'dismissal' of you if they're replacements or they're all human. Additionally, there is no 'common' enemy, the Collector's were only attacking human targets.

The only ally you really have, in the entire game... is TIM and Cerberus. 

Moiaussi wrote...
It is placing everyone at risk over mistrust and megalomania, this theory of TIM's that only he can save everyone (regardless of how many of everyone that costs, and regardless of the degree to which he manipulates events to prevent others from knowing, let alone helping).

I still don't see how this automatically qualifies him as being 'really evil' though. Cerberus can't really be expected to hand over olive branchs right now anyway, since everyone would be wary of it in any case. 

That's what I think.

I think he isn't evil, but just ambitious, be it really for humanity's best interests, or just him. I haven't played Renegade, but I think there is a dialogue from Shepard that warns him against using the Collectors-Reapers technology for his own benefits, instead of Humanity's.

I don't usually participate much in forums, but these debates really show a lot of unseen points of view, and that feels good.

Keep it up!

Modifié par KaOSoFt, 09 février 2011 - 03:14 .

[pumpkinman13]

Mmmmm... I get the vibe that he's kinda Flemethian =P There's evidently something not quite right going on behind the scenes. Or reminiscent of Kreia from KotoR2 before it was revealed she was actually evil, when she's very morally ambiguous and grey.



It would be cool if TIM was just one of three leaders of Cerberus. Geddit? Cerberus? Three headed dog? =P

[Biotic_Warlock]

Fromyou wrote...

If you think about it is the Illusive Man really that evil. Sure at points he tricks you but what you discover is important things. While unethical he still finds out major things. It seems like he focuses more on the end justifies the means.

Edit: Okay the standard for evil is harmful, selfish, out for only one's gain, murderer, and things like that

A little extreme... not evil.
Very pro human - like Cerberus... well he is pretty much in charge (or is he)

Makes me wonder if he is the same race of the shadow broker in that DLC quest and he changed and u have to kill him.
(That big alien was a tough-en)

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 09 février 2011 - 03:26 .

[Fingolfin09]

a bad guy is allways needed the world would not spin if evil was not present...simple

[KaOSoFt]

pumpkinman13 wrote...
It would be cool if TIM was just one of three leaders of Cerberus. Geddit? Cerberus? Three headed dog? =P

That sounds really cool, and if not true, at least is a valid option and feasible.

Fingolfin09 wrote...

a bad guy is allways needed the world would not spin if evil was not present...simple

Oh, Donovan's line. Yeah, it fits perfectly.

Modifié par KaOSoFt, 09 février 2011 - 03:35 .

[Jagri]

Three Heads might be the three types of cells Cerberus has... Military, research, and infiltration.

[jbblue05]

Jagri wrote...

Three Heads might be the three types of cells Cerberus has... Military, research, and political.

fixed

[Jagri]

Jagri wrote...

Three Heads might be the three types of cells Cerberus has... Military, research, and espionage.

fixed

[Zulu_DFA]

Geez, this "three heads" stuff is really lame. it may mean anything:



TIM+Udina+Hackett.

Earthborns+Colonists+Spacers.

Mass Effect 1+2+3.

[KaOSoFt]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Geez, this "three heads" stuff is really lame. it may mean anything:

TIM+Udina+Hackett.
Earthborns+Colonists+Spacers.
Mass Effect 1+2+3.

"G'ah, you're such a downer."
                Jeff "Joker" Moreau

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

That's all very well and good in saying so, but how? Presumably you can shoot down the Collector Vessel with your Normandy's weapon system but all that would do is to get it to crater the city (and Shephard) underneath it and quite frankly, that would be just a stupid move. There's frankly no real alternative.

You can't get the vessel to 'stick' to the planet either for reinforcements to arrive because it's not as if the Normandy could 'suppress' the vessel since it out-weighs it by orders of magnitude, and that's even assuming other people would have the political will to help out.

The Council I think is actually right about this, these colonists actually left the Alliance and Council space knowing the risks involved, they can't really expect to be saved by the council either.

It had to leave the surface sometime, and did when the alliance pop-gun opened up on it. All the Normandy had to do was take the shot.

If the Alliance and/or Council were in on the act, that shot would have been a lot easier. If a frigate could take it out, then a couple cruisers should have had no trouble. All they needed was the set up for the shot, with the colony as bait.

Why? The other side doesn't want to become involved, that's proven quite well with the Council's words to Shephard if you saved them, and their complete 'dismissal' of you if they're replacements or they're all human. Additionally, there is no 'common' enemy, the Collector's were only attacking human targets.

The only ally you really have, in the entire game... is TIM and Cerberus. 

But the 'other side' doesn't want to get involved BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO PROOF THERE IS A THREAT. You know...... like the proof TIM is withholding?

I still don't see how this automatically qualifies him as being 'really evil' though. Cerberus can't really be expected to hand over olive branchs right now anyway, since everyone would be wary of it in any case. 

I repeats... they didn't have to hand over anything as Cerberus. They could have 'leaked' the information via their Alliance moles, via the SB, or possibly via Shepard (especially if they hadn't gone out of their way to isolate Shep via the whole 'he is with a criminal organization called Cerberus' shtick).

And that whole 'but they don't trust us' thing only goes so far. The western countries worked with the Soviet Union in WWII just fine. Common enemies cause that kind of thing.

[Darth Death]

Short answer: Yes



Need proof? Play the first game or read the novels. If the the reapers don't dominate humanity, then TIM surely will.

[Homebound]

Fromyou wrote...

If you think about it is the Illusive Man really that evil. Sure at points he tricks you but what you discover is important things. While unethical he still finds out major things. It seems like he focuses more on the end justifies the means.

Edit: Okay the standard for evil is harmful, selfish, out for only one's gain, murderer, and things like that

Its not where you are going to, its how you get there.

illusive man is the type of person thay would point a gun at a turian to make sure the turian doesnt shoot him. Sure it works, sure its a defendable course of action, but wouldnt it be better if they didnt have a reason to point guns at each other instead?

illusive man is evil, he just doesnt think hes evil.

[Fromyou]

okay with evil i was just giving examples