965 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfsite]

Moiaussi wrote...

By the way, I get the impression that if TIM does turn out to be the proverbial wrong horse to back, that at least some of the posters here are going to be more upset with the writers than with themselves....

Don't worry, there are quite a few people who view anything that makes Cerberus look bad as "poor writing"

[Schneidend]

Making TIM turn out to be some kind of supervillain would be pretty poor writing in my eyes. He doesn't have anything to gain by siding with the Reapers.

[LTBK]

I don't like to think that TIM saved the galaxy because he resurrected Shepard. There were several hints to him being the one who directed the Collectors to the Normandy (SR1) in the first place.

He sent them after Shepard on Horizon (it was mentioned that it was not a coincidence that they attacked a colony where one of Shepard's comrades was, and it was TIM the one who spreaded that info for the Collectors to find), and he did it again with the turian ship. Moreover, when TIM was talking with Miranda on the start, he said the they must be sure to not "lose" Shepard. In my opinion, knowing Cerberus it could be possible that they sent the Collectors to the Normandy in the hopes that Shepard would owe them one and team up with them. Otherwise, Shepard would have keep working with the Alliance and quite possibly against Cerberus sometimes, like in ME1. Yeah, in ME2 Shep can do that too, but not as free.

Summarizing it, it was Shepard and the team the ones who really saved the galaxy. TIM just provided the info, and that could have been done by somebody else too (Liara?). And anyways, Shep is not that special, he/she just was in the proper place on the proper time. As for skill and leadership, it's said that Garrus, for example, is very close to him/her. Who knows what could have happened if Shepard wasn't resurrected by Cerberus, maybe another hero would have risen sooner or later

That being said, i don't consider him as a terrorist, nor truly evil. He's just unethical, and that comes with some evil behavior sometimes.

Modifié par LTBK, 11 février 2011 - 02:03 .

[James2912]

I would be mad a the writers if they went the cliche Cerberus/TIM is evil route in ME3. The real world is messy, things are rarely black and white, so far the writers have done an ok job portraying this. Its given us two different factions that some people love and some people hate, the Council and Cerberus. Both are defendable both are condemnable, which adds a really cool aspect to the game. Reading this thread you can really see how successful their writing has been so far. Most game companies would have just made the Council a holy institution that could do no wrong or made Cerberus and evil organization but Bioware truly made an intricate story line that really shows the differences between peoples POV. Its really cool, Thanks Bioware!

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus already is evil; all that'll make a difference is how necessary they are against the Reapers.

[Arijharn]

Wasn't TIM supposed to represent the worst and best values in humanity? If so, the idea that he's somehow complicit with the Reapers would be detrimental in a sort of cliche and even cheesy way. It makes him wholly unsympathetic, and frankly I like the whole concept of yin and yang, especially when viewed as a character's morality.



Even Saren, tool that he was (heh), was somewhat understandable in that he practically fell to the Reapers because he was so damn terrified of them. His goal was to save civilisation, although he reasoned servitude was the only way.to bring this about.

[Xilizhra]

If so, the idea that he's somehow complicit with the Reapers would be detrimental in a sort of cliche and even cheesy way.

Hardly. Combining the best and the worst traits simply makes for a very dedicated and effective villain. There are numerous "best" reasons he could have for backing the Reapers (faith, ambition, etc.).

[Inverness Moon]

Xilizhra wrote...

If so, the idea that he's somehow complicit with the Reapers would be detrimental in a sort of cliche and even cheesy way.

Hardly. Combining the best and the worst traits simply makes for a very dedicated and effective villain. There are numerous "best" reasons he could have for backing the Reapers (faith, ambition, etc.).

Sorry, but that is nonsense. They reapers are going to wipe out all galactic species and thinking that you'll be spared for helping them is pure foolishness. TIM, Shepard, and even the true Geth know this. There is no logical reason for TIM to help the reapers and if he does it will be because of nothing but bad writing on BioWare's part. No doubt there will be people like Saren and the Shadow Broker that turn on the rest of the galaxy beliving the reapers will show them favor, but it certainly wont be TIM.

Edit: This post made a fanfiction plot bunny emerge in my mind. What if, in the time before ME1, Shepard also found a reaper vanguard (or perhaps found Sovereign instead of Saren). But unlike Saren, instead of the reaper indoctrinating Shepard, Shepard indoctrinated the reaper. Of course, that shouldn't normally be possible, and the mystery behind that would eventually lead to Cerberus involvement in Shepard's creation.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 11 février 2011 - 03:43 .

[James2912]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If so, the idea that he's somehow complicit with the Reapers would be detrimental in a sort of cliche and even cheesy way.

Hardly. Combining the best and the worst traits simply makes for a very dedicated and effective villain. There are numerous "best" reasons he could have for backing the Reapers (faith, ambition, etc.).

Sorry, but that is nonsense. They reapers are going to wipe out all galactic species and thinking that you'll be spared for helping them is pure foolishness. TIM, Shepard, and even the true Geth know this. There is no logical reason for TIM to help the reapers and if he does it will be because of nothing but bad writing on BioWare's part. No doubt there will be people like Saren and the Shadow Broker that turn on the rest of the galaxy beliving the reapers will show them favor, but it certainly wont be TIM.

I have to agree it would not make sense at this point for TIM to do a 360 after he has done everything he can to save the Galaxy. 

[Xilizhra]

Doing 360 would put him back where he started...

[James2912]

Xilizhra wrote...

Doing 360 would put him back where he started...

Touche I meant a 180! 

[Zulu_DFA]

If I'm correct in one of the latest ideas I've been toying with, that TIM is actually a Darth Vader of the ME series, it would make him "evil", but "there is still good in him".

Moreover, although TIM is not indoctrinated or anything, his "Human Dominance" program (aside from being considered evil in and of itself by the alien-lovers here) can actually play into the claws of Harbinger. There is some supporting evidence for that (Protheans had been a single race dominating the Galaxy before they were harvested, and the Mad Prophet's, er... prophecy).

And while the alien-lovers will be, of course, happy, if the Human dominance is proven to be "evil" this way, the trick here is that the Reapers still have to reap (that's what they do). And therefore the Human dominance is not even TIM's fault. It is our destiny! But without TIM there is might be no way to turn at against the Reapers and defeat them. Like, at all.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 février 2011 - 06:35 .

[Moiaussi]

Schneidend wrote...

Making TIM turn out to be some kind of supervillain would be pretty poor writing in my eyes. He doesn't have anything to gain by siding with the Reapers.

Why this idiotic assumption that 'bad guys' have to ally? It is inane. Two people each out to conquer the galaxy aren't going to suddenly decide to share. If they believed in sharing they would be a lot less likely to try to conquer the galaxy, wouldn't they?

Historicly as well as in many fictional depictions, such men are more likely to ally with 'the good guys' against a common enemy, at least until the war is over.

So far, TIM seems to be trying to win this one alone.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If I'm correct in one of the latest ideas I've been toying with, that TIM is actually a Darth Vader of the ME series, it would make him evil, but "there is still good in him".

Moreover, although TIM is not indoctrinated or anything, his "Human Dominance" program (aside from being considered evil in and of itself by the alien-lovers here) can actually play into the claws of Harbinger. There is some supporting evidence for that (Protheans were a single race dominating the Galaxy before they were harvested, and the Mad Prophet's, er... prophecy).

And while the alien-lovers will be, of course, happy, if the Human dominance is proven to be "evil" this way, the trick here is that the Reapers still have to reap (that's what they do). And therefore the Human dominance is not even TIM's fault. It is our destiny! But without TIM there is might be no way to turn at against the Reapers and defeat them. Like, at all.

And this is why I keep discussing things with you. This theory of yours I consider completely plausable.

[Fromyou]

v

[V_Burgh]

I don't think he's necessarily evil, but he's definitely unethical and a little crazy. He also appears to be a completely ineffective leader. I mean the writing in ME2's pathetic attempt to make him and his organization not look so "bad", after finding out about all the atrocities they committed in and prior to ME1, has resulted in every experiment we've seen "going rogue." If he can't maintain control of any of his facilities he has incredibly poor leadership skills. Which seems rather counter intuitive you'd assume a man who has been leading a terrorist organization with military/political/corporate ties would be an effective leader, but it seems like ME2 has gone out of its way to prove otherwise.

[Vociferation]

The Illusive Man rawks! He's human and we all have a lil' good n' evil in us...that's what makes all of the ME characters so enticing...even Mama Samara is severely dark and warped in her few of ethics. She's just too bad arse to argue with for the average hominid. I love this dynamic in the ME peeps...heck, even "cutesy" Tali does dark things for the betterment of the Quarian cause. To me, the least evil character in all of the ME world is Legion.

[KaOSoFt]

Moiaussi wrote...
Last I checked though, Batman doesn't order assassinations on politicians inconvenient to him. He refuses to even kill the Joker, or any of the other psychopathic serial killers he comes up against, at least not in any modern interpretation.

Never, not just the modern interpretation. He never kills. In fact, I think he's only fired a gun once in all of Batman's history, that's why I noticed a little mistake in Batman Begins where he, with a thug holding the gun, makes the thug shoot himself in the foot.

Back to topic, sometimes I feel guilty... I mean, what would have happened if TIM had not resurrected Shepard...? We would be organic paste, and whoever was still left standing would be indoctrinated (worst) or asking for a saviour.

Tough choice.

[Moiaussi]

KaOSoFt wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
Last I checked though, Batman doesn't order assassinations on politicians inconvenient to him. He refuses to even kill the Joker, or any of the other psychopathic serial killers he comes up against, at least not in any modern interpretation.

Never, not just the modern interpretation. He never kills. In fact, I think he's only fired a gun once in all of Batman's history, that's why I noticed a little mistake in Batman Begins where he, with a thug holding the gun, makes the thug shoot himself in the foot.

Back to topic, sometimes I feel guilty... I mean, what would have happened if TIM had not resurrected Shepard...? We would be organic paste, and whoever was still left standing would be indoctrinated (worst) or asking for a saviour.

Tough choice.

Not neccessarily. The Alliance were investigating (hence installing guns on colonies). It also depends on whether you are asking just if TIM hadn't res'd shepard, or if he had stayed out of it  completely.

If he had stayed out of it, other information TIM had supressed might have gotten others moving quicker.

And there is still the possibility that the Normandy was spotted by virtue of it being bugged and a transmission from the bugs being intercepted by the Collectors, thus revealing the Normandy's position.

[Wulfram]

Even the STG started investigating after Horizon. I don't think Shepard was really necessary to defeat the Collectors, though he surely saved a whole bunch of people from being slushified.

[Arijharn]

Wulfram wrote...

Even the STG started investigating after Horizon. I don't think Shepard was really necessary to defeat the Collectors, though he surely saved a whole bunch of people from being slushified.

I agree, but as far as I see it; Shephard wasn't resurrected to fight the Collector's, (s)he just sort of got roped in to fight the Collector's because that's where the winds blew.

[FellowerOfOdin]

It all depends on your characters moral point of view...my Paragon character hates him as he considers TIM to be racist and not working for unity in the galaxy but my Human First! Renegade character absolutely agrees with him and even let every non-human die in the suicide mission...

[Fromyou]

bump

[Haadurin]

I would argue that nobody in the ME games aside from the Reapers and Morinth are truly evil.

[lovgreno]

Moiaussi wrote...

So far, TIM seems to be trying to win this one alone.

He has no choice but to try that pipe dream as he has managed to make Cerberus a enemy of everyone (TIMmy and Miranda says on several occasions that their credibility is reduced to zero and no one trusts them). But at least he is trying to do something. If his wild gambling will help or harm humanity, well, that remains to be seen. Thus far his achievments have been far from impressive though.