965 réponses à ce sujet

[nevar00]

He isn't evil to the point of the Reapers, but he's still obviously a bad guy to anyone who played the side missions in ME1. You find out how they used rachni, husks, creepers, and even worse, killed Kohoju and his squad, and of course there's the whole Toombs thing. And then there's Jack, and if you've read the books he's pretty obviously only looking out for himself, regardless of the cost.



The Toombs story was horribly addressed in the second game, ESPECIALLY if you have the sole survivor background. You find out Cerberus killed your entire squad but you and one other, who was captured and tortured for years? And you can't even bring it up to the Illusive Man or anyone, and the game just acts as if it never happened!? what is this I dont even... I expected better from Bioware tbh, it's not like them to completely ignore a storyline.

[Fromyou]

over 10,000 views before it dies, bump post

[Arijharn]

Fromyou wrote...

over 10,000 views before it dies, bump post

I'm probably going to hate myself for doing this, but why don't you meaningly contribute to your own thread as opposed to just bumping it?

[Fromyou]

i contributed at other times... but now i'm just doing a bump, since i can tell it's ending. Though the Illusive Man did put aside his hatred for aliens by having them not only work with cerberus, but to have their uniforms with their icons on it. To add on he does what he thinks is best for humanity

[KaOSoFt]

Fromyou wrote...

i contributed at other times... but now i'm just doing a bump, since i can tell it's ending. Though the Illusive Man did put aside his hatred for aliens by having them not only work with cerberus, but to have their uniforms with their icons on it. To add on he does what he thinks is best for humanity

I don't think he puts his hatred aside, he just lets the best human to guide the best people in the galaxy, no matter their race. Remember, he pursues humanity's best interest, which doesn't mean to destroy all other aliens, but to command them. He does what's neccessary, no matter the cost. Remember Martin Sheen's words: "He's the kind of guy who always stresses that the ends justify the means."

And in part like he said once when you tell him about reinstating yourself as a SPECTRE, if you need the best of the best, and they are aliens, use them, "by all means."

[StokedUp]

I've just completed the Game and the impression I get of TIM is that he's hiding something. When I opted to destroy the reaper at the end he goes mad, I think he's power hungry and wants humans to completely take over the galaxy. He may have let aliens join cerberus for this mission but that is because it was in his best interests. To me he seemed like a Hitler, power hungry and will do anything to get his people to take over, if get gets enough power he would end up attacking other alien races for no reason but to take over and be dominant. He'd of starte wars and caused chaos.

[Dean_the_Young]

TIM's just like Hitler, except without the genocide, and the fascist police state apparatus, and the absolute control of the media, and the drives of territorial conquest, and racist subjugation, enslavement, and ethnic cleansing of inferior races, and the death camps, and starting wars with the peer nations...



But other than that, he's like Hitler. Mainly because he's ambitious.





Oy, vey, does everyone get their idea of 'dominance' from super villains in comics?

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

Even the STG started investigating after Horizon. I don't think Shepard was really necessary to defeat the Collectors, though he surely saved a whole bunch of people from being slushified.

The key thing Shepard was needed for was to get the data from the Collector Cruiser. That, beyond everything else, was the most limited window of opportunity that couldn't be solved with repeat attempts, nor would remain open for others. The Collector Cruiser was necessary to learn how to proceed, and Shepard was necessary for the Collector Cruiser not just in accomplishing the task, but because much of the trap was set up for Shepard's sake as well.

Once that was done, however, the Collector clock was ticking. The Derilect Reaper could be taken over time, even with more lives lost clearing husks/dying in the attempt. And once the IFF was analyzed, replication could follow, and the Collector Base's primary defense was nullified.

[Moiaussi]

He is much more a Stalin or Mao than a Hitler. Hitler was easily influenced by any underling willing to praise him enough.



Depending on what he wanted the base and its tech for, though you never know... he might have been planning Asari and Turian smoothies for all we know....

[StokedUp]

I think if he had the power and the tech that he simply would destroy enslave other alien races, Shepards mission was to stop the collectors from capturing human colonies. Yet when shepard finally accomplished this TIM all of a sudden desperately wanted Shepard to salvage the reaper tech, as if it was some hidden agenda. He doesn't want humans to establish themselves as a top species in the galaxy but wants humans to take over and he needed that reaper tech to help him takeover. That's what I meant by him being like Hitler, Hitler wanted the world for Germany, the illusive man wants the galaxy for humans.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

He is much more a Stalin or Mao than a Hitler. Hitler was easily influenced by any underling willing to praise him enough.

Depending on what he wanted the base and its tech for, though you never know... he might have been planning Asari and Turian smoothies for all we know....

Planning Asari and Turian smoothies would necessitate him being a complete and total idiot, for a variety of reasons.

[Dean_the_Young]

StokedUp wrote...

I think if he had the power and the tech that he simply would destroy enslave other alien races, Shepards mission was to stop the collectors from capturing human colonies. Yet when shepard finally accomplished this TIM all of a sudden desperately wanted Shepard to salvage the reaper tech, as if it was some hidden agenda.

Or like it was a sudden opportunity that wasn't previously known.

Which it was.

There's nothing 'hidden' about his agenda: he'll tell you straight up. The technology can be used to prepare against the Reapers. (Which you can expect him to do: if the Reapers win, TIM loses.) The technology can afterwards be used to gain human primacy. (Which you can expect him to also do, as he's being doing that all this time.)

He doesn't want humans to establish themselves as a top species in the galaxy but wants humans to take over and he needed that reaper tech to help him takeover. That's what I meant by him being like Hitler, Hitler wanted the world for Germany, the illusive man wants the galaxy for humans.

Why not go with Machivelli? Or Caesar? Or Bush? Or King Louis the XIV? Or any of the other leaders in history who openly pursued primacy by their faction?

Why focus of a genocidal racist conqueror as the comparison for someone who's neither demonstrated inclination towards genocide, racism, or even conquest?

Why is your insistence on dominance a cartoonish depiction of villainy?

[Arijharn]

Not to mention the fact that Hitler wasn't actually about 'Germany' in and of itself, but about an Aryan nation (which himself couldn't join)

[StokedUp]

I didn't realise my insistence of dominance was a cartoonish depiction of villainy. But your right I could compare him to caesar, he had similar goals as in wanting to take over the world. I suppose I say Hitler because he's the most recent to actually attempt it and he was evil which I think TIM is.

[Costin_Razvan]

Are Hitler and Stalin the only names people can come up with because frankly his goals, his motives and even his methods are nothing similar to those two.



He is more like Talleyrand then anything else.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or like it was a sudden opportunity that wasn't previously known.

Which it was.

There's nothing 'hidden' about his agenda: he'll tell you straight up. The technology can be used to prepare against the Reapers. (Which you can expect him to do: if the Reapers win, TIM loses.) The technology can afterwards be used to gain human primacy. (Which you can expect him to also do, as he's being doing that all this time.)

Per "Ascension" he didn't know about the Reapers during ME1, yet Cerberus was involved in all sorts of 'technology.' The Reapers might be a major threat, but they are also a convenient excuse for research lines TIM would have pursued anyway given the chance.

Why focus of a genocidal racist conqueror as the comparison for someone who's neither demonstrated inclination towards genocide, racism, or even conquest?

Why is your insistence on dominance a cartoonish depiction of villainy?

Given TIM isn't currently the head of a major government, it is very easy to make such statements. Even every mainstream opposition party claims 'they stink, but we'll do everything right!', and can do so easily since, not being in power, they have no questionable legislation to defend. Hitler was democraticly elected promising 'new and better things.

Racism is definately implied by way of Cerberus being specificly pro human, by definition a racist concept. That doesn't automaticly mean they dislike everyone else, but there is a difference between wanting your race specificly to be the best and wanting everyone to be their best for everyone's mutual benefit, i.e. looking for mutual gains rather than treating everything as zero sum.

His plans for the Geth are arguably genocidal, although I think we need new terms for mass-reprogramming....

[Moiaussi]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Are Hitler and Stalin the only names people can come up with because frankly his goals, his motives and even his methods are nothing similar to those two.

He is more like Talleyrand then anything else.

He isn't current;y in charge of any major government. Given that, how can you be so certain? If he had any rivals in forming the organization, we don't know about them, and we don't know if they survived. Shepard rebels, but not until the end of ME2, if at all.

[Moiaussi]

StokedUp wrote...

I didn't realise my insistence of dominance was a cartoonish depiction of villainy. But your right I could compare him to caesar, he had similar goals as in wanting to take over the world. I suppose I say Hitler because he's the most recent to actually attempt it and he was evil which I think TIM is.

Rome under Julius or under Augustus didn't maintain itself purely on military power. Territory was initially gained militarily, but they actually had a lot to offer the citizens and for a time it was held by good governance. It wasn't until later emperors that it started to muck up.

That really doesn't seem to be the model TIM is following....

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or like it was a sudden opportunity that wasn't previously known.

Which it was.

There's nothing 'hidden' about his agenda: he'll tell you straight up. The technology can be used to prepare against the Reapers. (Which you can expect him to do: if the Reapers win, TIM loses.) The technology can afterwards be used to gain human primacy. (Which you can expect him to also do, as he's being doing that all this time.)

Per "Ascension" he didn't know about the Reapers during ME1, yet Cerberus was involved in all sorts of 'technology.' The Reapers might be a major threat, but they are also a convenient excuse for research lines TIM would have pursued anyway given the chance.

Er...

Since we're talking about TIM's last-minute appeal to save the Collector Base after he looked over the schematics and saw that it was possible to capture, I'm confused as to what your point is. That he didn't know about the Reapers before he knew about them? Sure, but that's neither here or now. That he's always been about pursuing Human dominance, and reasearching accordingly? Sure, and that's never been a secret either.

Given TIM isn't currently the head of a major government, it is very easy to make such statements. Even every mainstream opposition party claims 'they stink, but we'll do everything right!', and can do so easily since, not being in power, they have no questionable legislation to defend. Hitler was democraticly elected promising 'new and better things.

...so the ideal comparison of a non-democratic, non-governmental person is someone who was the head of a government and got to be via democratic means?

I'm not sure I follow that logic, M.

Racism is definately implied by way of Cerberus being specificly pro human, by definition a racist concept. That doesn't automaticly mean they dislike everyone else, but there is a difference between wanting your race specificly to be the best and wanting everyone to be their best for everyone's mutual benefit, i.e. looking for mutual gains rather than treating everything as zero sum.

There's a correlation versus causation difference in there: is TIM pro-human because he's racist, or racist because he's pro-human? Since the galaxy is defined (by the Council) along xeno-national political units, the difference does matter. If TIM is pro-human because he believes the Human race is intrensically superior to inferior alien genomes, that's racism. If TIM's pro-human because humanity is his political unit and he wants it to top, that's the fundamentals of nationalism.

Comparison: Take a random Chinese who believes it's desirable for China to be the number one power in the world: 'dominant', in so much as the dominance applies. As a necessity, this means that non-Chinese nations (like France, filled with Frenchmen) will NOT be number 1, and will be in an inferior position. Now, does this make the Chinese nationalistic view racist? Not intrensically: the same desire, after all, applies in regards to the United States, which is not a single race and is getting more diverse with each year.

While the barriers blure between nationalism and racism when national units are largely aligned with racial populations, they aren't identical, and the difference does matter. What makes a racist racist is racism, not the political unit to which he subscribes.

His plans for the Geth are arguably genocidal, although I think we need new terms for mass-reprogramming....

Overlord doesn't re-program Geth, though. In fact, reprogramming Geth is the primary defense against Overlord: Overlord takes advantage of a Geth inclination towards worship by giving a Messiah-figure of sorts who asks them to do things. They do it, but because they're inclined to want to: Geth without religious impulses wouldn't have the 'catch.' Who the Geth are isn't changed, but taken advantage of.

Hacking/reprogramming Geth is the Heretic or Quarian method: one directly changes how they think, the other works through the barriers.

[Inverness Moon]

Moiaussi wrote...

Racism is definately implied by way of Cerberus being specificly pro human, by definition a racist concept.

Nonsense. One can be pro-human without being anti-alien.

Dean puts it better than I could have, but I think this assertion is nonsense.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 17 février 2011 - 10:52 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Er...

Since we're talking about TIM's last-minute appeal to save the Collector Base after he looked over the schematics and saw that it was possible to capture, I'm confused as to what your point is. That he didn't know about the Reapers before he knew about them? Sure, but that's neither here or now. That he's always been about pursuing Human dominance, and reasearching accordingly? Sure, and that's never been a secret either.

The point was assessing possible Cerberus motives based on what we do know from ME1. In ME2, we have no idea, since the base is only handed over at the end (assuming it is) and TIM hasn't had a chance to do anything with it yet. Researching Rachni, Thorians, etc, to look for ways to 'build better super-soldiers' (i.e. modify the human race based on studies of alien DNA) seems pretty extreme to me even if they took reasonable precations in pursuing it, and it is questionable whether any such soldiers would technically still be human.

...so the ideal comparison of a non-democratic, non-governmental person is someone who was the head of a government and got to be via democratic means?

I'm not sure I follow that logic, M.

We know for the SB dossiers that TIM is ensuring that Cerberus friendly/Cerberus controlled politicians are in power. Just because he doesn't currently have control doesn't mean he doesn't want it. The question is, what he would do with it. Stalin and Mao had similar mindsets, but had acheived control of major countries in addition.

Saying TIM hasn't done the same things when he isn't yet in a position to do so is inherrently flawed. The similar mindsets are comparable.

There's a correlation versus causation difference in there: is TIM pro-human because he's racist, or racist because he's pro-human? Since the galaxy is defined (by the Council) along xeno-national political units, the difference does matter. If TIM is pro-human because he believes the Human race is intrensically superior to inferior alien genomes, that's racism. If TIM's pro-human because humanity is his political unit and he wants it to top, that's the fundamentals of nationalism.

Comparison: Take a random Chinese who believes it's desirable for China to be the number one power in the world: 'dominant', in so much as the dominance applies. As a necessity, this means that non-Chinese nations (like France, filled with Frenchmen) will NOT be number 1, and will be in an inferior position. Now, does this make the Chinese nationalistic view racist? Not intrensically: the same desire, after all, applies in regards to the United States, which is not a single race and is getting more diverse with each year.

While the barriers blure between nationalism and racism when national units are largely aligned with racial populations, they aren't identical, and the difference does matter. What makes a racist racist is racism, not the political unit to which he subscribes.

Keep in mind that the current popular defintions of the major powers are 'racist.' The Alliance is typically referred to as 'the humans.' The other governments are similarly defined by race. Is that because of race, though or simply because of demographics? Does an alien living on Earth, or on any of the other government's worlds have no citizen's rights or ability to become a citizen? They would be a minority, but it is an important question.

Regardless, that is a question of 'is everyone racist?' rather than 'is Cerberus racist?' Cerberus is racist. They are not promoting the Alliance, they are promoting humans. There is a difference there. Even if the Alliance has no non-human citizenship rights, that only means that the Alliance is also racist, not that Cerberus is not.

Overlord doesn't re-program Geth, though. In fact, reprogramming Geth is the primary defense against Overlord: Overlord takes advantage of a Geth inclination towards worship by giving a Messiah-figure of sorts who asks them to do things. They do it, but because they're inclined to want to: Geth without religious impulses wouldn't have the 'catch.' Who the Geth are isn't changed, but taken advantage of.

Hacking/reprogramming Geth is the Heretic or Quarian method: one directly changes how they think, the other works through the barriers.

If your assessment of overlord is correct, why would they need the Overlord project? Anyone could transmit to the Geth and preach/ask them to do things. They were designed to assist Quarians. Even in the unlikely event that they had no tranlation capacity, it is a safe bet that they can understand Quarian.

If it is just a matter of cracking their language, then that shouldn't have required an autistic anyone wired into anything either.

[Moiaussi]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Racism is definately implied by way of Cerberus being specificly pro human, by definition a racist concept.

Nonsense. One can be pro-human without being anti-alien.

Dean puts it better than I could have, but I think this assertion is nonsense.

Personally I would say withholding potentially galactic community saving intel crosses any line you might be suggesting. TIM treats diplomacy as zero sum, we can only win by way of someone else losing, or vis versa. If we have an invention first, it means they don't have it first, and they are comparitively worse off in some way, likely economicly.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

If your assessment of overlord is correct, why would they need the Overlord project? Anyone could transmit to the Geth and preach/ask them to do things. They were designed to assist Quarians. Even in the unlikely event that they had no tranlation capacity, it is a safe bet that they can understand Quarian.

If it is just a matter of cracking their language, then that shouldn't have required an autistic anyone wired into anything either.

Nothing in Overlord makes any sense, so you'd want to keep it down to this: Cerberus tried to control the Geth via conditioning an autistic guy. The "morall dilemma" here is supposed to be: Is it worth to torture an autistic guy, to control the Geth, yes/no?

[DPSSOC]

Moiaussi wrote...
TIM treats diplomacy as zero sum, we can only win by way of someone else losing, or vis versa.

 
That's because it kind of is.  In diplomacy you can't gain anything without giving something up, that's how compromise works.  When dealing with a firmly entrenched opponent with a superior bargaining position (any of the big 3) you consider yourself lucky if you manage a zero-sum.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Personally I would say withholding potentially galactic community saving intel crosses any line you might be suggesting. TIM treats diplomacy as zero sum, we can only win by way of someone else losing, or vis versa. If we have an invention first, it means they don't have it first, and they are comparitively worse off in some way, likely economicly.

Except that most of our known Cerberus political shinanigans have not been zero sum. Working with the Turians on the Normandy shared Alliance technology in exchange for Turian ship-building knowledge. Drugging an Asari biotic-supremacist matriarch with anti-biotic drugs cleared the way for better Asari relations with all non-biotics. Killing the pope didn't merely make militarizing humanity politically more palatable, but made way for better Human-Salarian relations with an influential anti-Salarian voice silenced.

Cerberus is out so that Humanity wins most, but it hasn't demonstrated a zero-sum attitude to... well, much of anything.