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Is the Illusive Man Really Evil?


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#101
Moiaussi

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Googlesaurus wrote...

TIM wants human dominance, not human exclusivity. Don't it make sense to work with your "enemy" in the short-term to climb over them in the long-term?


This is what we are told now. We are also told that any prior evidence to the contrary were merely 'rogue elements' (per TIM) or operations of other branches (per Miranda, which implies TIM is not actually in charge of Cerberus after all).

Next I suppose we'll be told that Toombs wasn't actually captured by Cerberus at all, but that TIM was the one who ensured he escaped, that TIM is actually secretly working with the Council towards galactic unity, and that he is really a renegade Reaper.....

#102
LorDC

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

I really wonder how this subject would look if same list of crimes which are on cerberus account would be posted in relation to STG or Turian black ops group (IF they have such)...

Somehow i think many of those who right now defend cerberus without hesitation would call for wrath of all 7 heavens to be dropped on "Ruthless and evil to the core aliens"... and all of this is based on one single and simple.. "cerberus is humanity" delusion of the one sick and twisted mind of someone who possibly is not even human anymore...

Well Rachni genocide and Genophage are already here. Or something like threatening to bomb Quarian colony.
And wrath of 7 heavens is already here too. It's called Cerberus.

#103
LorDC

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Nightwriter wrote...

LorDC wrote...

It is considered that some people are just too narrow-minded about TIM.
The only goal of Cerberus is human dominance. TIM never stated that aliens are "bad" or "tainted" or "mortal enemies of humanity".

When you believe one thing should be superior, you believe all other things should be inferior.

That's what my post is about. It is nowhere implied that TIM thinks of other races as untermensches thus making him go all the way down n@zi road.

#104
KainrycKarr

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LorDC wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

LorDC wrote...

It is considered that some people are just too narrow-minded about TIM.
The only goal of Cerberus is human dominance. TIM never stated that aliens are "bad" or "tainted" or "mortal enemies of humanity".

When you believe one thing should be superior, you believe all other things should be inferior.

That's what my post is about. It is nowhere implied that TIM thinks of other races as untermensches thus making him go all the way down n@zi road.


Uh, yeah it is, in the books and the general idea that TIM wants human dominance. It's basically explained that he predicts an inevitable race war of sorts....sound familiar?

#105
Dean_the_Young

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Nightwriter wrote...

LorDC wrote...

It is considered that some people are just too narrow-minded about TIM.
The only goal of Cerberus is human dominance. TIM never stated that aliens are "bad" or "tainted" or "mortal enemies of humanity".

When you believe one thing should be superior, you believe all other things should be inferior.

The dominance of one doesn't mean the malign subjugation of the rest. You know that. You've lived that.

#106
Nightwriter

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

LorDC wrote...

It is considered that some people are just too narrow-minded about TIM.
The only goal of Cerberus is human dominance. TIM never stated that aliens are "bad" or "tainted" or "mortal enemies of humanity".

When you believe one thing should be superior, you believe all other things should be inferior.

The dominance of one doesn't mean the malign subjugation of the rest. You know that. You've lived that.

Too often do you make the mistake of thinking that TIM would rule as you would rule.

Give me a fair and fit man to sit the throne, and I will abide. Give me a tyrant and I will call it tyranny.

#107
jbblue05

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Evil? Probably.
Lost touch with reality? Definitely.

politically correct? no

loss touch with reality? no

Everybody is trying to get an advantage that's just the way nature works

An idealist who want a Utopia or complete equality has lost touch with reality

#108
Jagri

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

LorDC wrote...

It is considered that some people are just too narrow-minded about TIM.
The only goal of Cerberus is human dominance. TIM never stated that aliens are "bad" or "tainted" or "mortal enemies of humanity".

When you believe one thing should be superior, you believe all other things should be inferior.

The dominance of one doesn't mean the malign subjugation of the rest. You know that. You've lived that.


Honestly does TIMs actions up to this point lead you to believe that dominance under his rule would be anything but malign? He has shown a complete disregard for all life in order to advance his goals. Misinformation and lies are constantly spoken to both enemy and allies.

So if his ideal vision does come to pass everything he has done and shown habit of doing will simply disappear?

#109
AntiChri5

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TIM actually thinks that his organisation of 150 people all handpicked by him represents humanity.

He has lost touch with reality.

#110
jbblue05

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AntiChri5 wrote...

TIM actually thinks that his organisation of 150 people all handpicked by him represents humanity.
He has lost touch with reality.



Tim is implying Cerberus is A face of humanity.

The Alliance and Cerberus are intertwined and the Alliance represents humanity  so........

#111
Dean_the_Young

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Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

LorDC wrote...

It is considered that some people are just too narrow-minded about TIM.
The only goal of Cerberus is human dominance. TIM never stated that aliens are "bad" or "tainted" or "mortal enemies of humanity".

When you believe one thing should be superior, you believe all other things should be inferior.

The dominance of one doesn't mean the malign subjugation of the rest. You know that. You've lived that.

Too often do you make the mistake of thinking that TIM would rule as you would rule.

Give me a fair and fit man to sit the throne, and I will abide. Give me a tyrant and I will call it tyranny.

TIM doesn't need to rule as I would to not be a tyrant. I'm more likely to be a tyrant than TIM.

#112
Dean_the_Young

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Jagri wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

LorDC wrote...

It is considered that some people are just too narrow-minded about TIM.
The only goal of Cerberus is human dominance. TIM never stated that aliens are "bad" or "tainted" or "mortal enemies of humanity".

When you believe one thing should be superior, you believe all other things should be inferior.

The dominance of one doesn't mean the malign subjugation of the rest. You know that. You've lived that.


Honestly does TIMs actions up to this point lead you to believe that dominance under his rule would be anything but malign? He has shown a complete disregard for all life in order to advance his goals. Misinformation and lies are constantly spoken to both enemy and allies.

So if his ideal vision does come to pass everything he has done and shown habit of doing will simply disappear?

TIM's harmful actions have to date only been targetted and hurt the margins of society, whereas his beneficial actions have helped far more: TIM and Cerberus were just as involved in saving the Council as Jacob was, and TIM's involvements have also more than once paved the way for better, not worse, relations with every member of the Council: military cooperation with the Turians, and removing influential obstacles to cooperation with the Salarians (pro-life anti-genophage pope) and the Asari (biotic supremacist, which affected far more than humans).

TIM wants humanity to 'win', but that isn't a zero-sum game. It never has been.

#113
Nightwriter

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jbblue05 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Evil? Probably.
Lost touch with reality? Definitely.

politically correct? no

loss touch with reality? no

Everybody is trying to get an advantage that's just the way nature works

An idealist who want a Utopia or complete equality has lost touch with reality

You use human nature to handwave such deeds as torture and hostile experimentation, then call anyone who objects to said torture "idealists"?

We do not remember placing faith in any kind of ideal. We only remember objecting to torture and moral squickiness.

#114
AntiChri5

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Tim is implying Cerberus is A face of humanity.



The Alliance and Cerberus are intertwined and the Alliance represents humanity  so........


TIM says "Cerberus is humanity". Not a face or part of, but wholly representative.

Cerberus has a few people in the Alliance (not anymore) This does not make them intertwined. If that were so, then organised crime and law enforcement are as well.

Cerberus is 150 people handpicked by TIM, none of whom but TIM know everything about the organisation or other members. Cerberus is TIM. 150 people who all answer to one man can never be said to adequately represent billions.

#115
Jagri

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

LorDC wrote...

It is considered that some people are just too narrow-minded about TIM.
The only goal of Cerberus is human dominance. TIM never stated that aliens are "bad" or "tainted" or "mortal enemies of humanity".

When you believe one thing should be superior, you believe all other things should be inferior.

The dominance of one doesn't mean the malign subjugation of the rest. You know that. You've lived that.


Honestly does TIMs actions up to this point lead you to believe that dominance under his rule would be anything but malign? He has shown a complete disregard for all life in order to advance his goals. Misinformation and lies are constantly spoken to both enemy and allies.

So if his ideal vision does come to pass everything he has done and shown habit of doing will simply disappear?

TIM's harmful actions have to date only been targetted and hurt the margins of society, whereas his beneficial actions have helped far more: TIM and Cerberus were just as involved in saving the Council as Jacob was, and TIM's involvements have also more than once paved the way for better, not worse, relations with every member of the Council: military cooperation with the Turians, and removing influential obstacles to cooperation with the Salarians (pro-life anti-genophage pope) and the Asari (biotic supremacist, which affected far more than humans).

TIM wants humanity to 'win', but that isn't a zero-sum game. It never has been.


Still doesn't address the complete disregard for life but you make a case in which TIM isn't stupid and knows when to assist and aid others when it will help further his own goals. That and humanities relationship with the Salarians, Turians, and Asari during those times needed to be strong in order to advance.

Tell me what does TIM tend to do with people and experiments that out live their usefulness to him?

Modifié par Jagri, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:43 .


#116
jbblue05

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Nightwriter wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Evil? Probably.
Lost touch with reality? Definitely.

politically correct? no

loss touch with reality? no

Everybody is trying to get an advantage that's just the way nature works

An idealist who want a Utopia or complete equality has lost touch with reality

You use human nature to handwave such deeds as torture and hostile experimentation, then call anyone who objects to said torture "idealists"?

We do not remember placing faith in any kind of ideal. We only remember objecting to torture and moral squickiness.


You should be a journalist. You completely twisted my words out of context.

I said idealists have lost touch with reality if they believe in pure equality and utopia is obtainable.

Human nature will always triumph..  Every government has done unethical things and they will continue to do unethical things that can benefit their peoplle or give them an advantage.

The cheap goods that Americans enjoy today are due to slavery across the world.  You taker away those cheap goods because slavery is wrong. Then prices start skyrocketing  people are going to complain and want those cheap goods again.

#117
Dionkey

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I think TIM simply overestimates himself and will not know how to handle something when he looses control of it. He almost doomed the Galaxy with grayson, its necessary, maybe just a little too far in his hands.

#118
James2912

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Im all for Cerberus and human domination, it would be better than a corrupt ineffectual Council. I am very racist against the fictional aliens.


Except I do like my women Blue, Liara is my LI

Modifié par James2912, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:51 .


#119
jbblue05

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Tim is implying Cerberus is A face of humanity.

The Alliance and Cerberus are intertwined and the Alliance represents humanity  so........

TIM says "Cerberus is humanity". Not a face or part of, but wholly representative.
Cerberus has a few people in the Alliance (not anymore) This does not make them intertwined. If that were so, then organised crime and law enforcement are as well.
Cerberus is 150 people handpicked by TIM, none of whom but TIM know everything about the organisation or other members. Cerberus is TIM. 150 people who all answer to one man can never be said to adequately represent billions.

Does the U.S. represent humanity? no Canada? no France? no   etc. etc.
Humanity has many faces.

TIM was pissed that you destroy the CB and try to send you on a guilt trip that failed.

Cerberus and ALliance are intertwined they are connected in so many ways you have to be real stubborn to not see it or you believe Alliance= good paragon  Cerberus=.evil renegade
.

#120
Dean_the_Young

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I swear, I've never seen so many people get hung up on a metaphor before.



Self-identification is popular. Common, even. We do it on this board (Paragons vs. Renegades), politicians do it all the time, the military does it, and so on. People tie non-identical things together all the time. (Example: If you spit on a flag, you're spitting on the country it represents, even though no one would actually assert the flag is the country. Or, economically: 'what's good for Detroit is good for America', as the saying went.)



TIM is making a point that he considers the interests of Humanity and Cerberus firmly aligned: what's good for one is good for the other, which is the answer to Shepard's question. It isn't meant to be taken literally (that Cerberus is the sole representative) in the context it's given.



It's exactly what every Mass Effect source involving TIM has suggested and corroborated: that TIM is an extremist idealist who truly believes that what he does is for the greater good of humanity's survival, defense, advancement, and ascendancy.



TIM isn't saying 'I am Humanity' in the sense that King Louis the whichever said 'I am the State': a singular statement of actual equivalence. TIM is saying 'they're one in the same' in regards to Shepard's question of 'Human interests, or just Cerberus': Cerberus considers what's good for Humanity to be good for Cerberus (even when it harms Cerberus: losing the Derelict Reaper team in exchange for quickly finding the IFF necessary to end the Collector attacks), and considers what's good for Cerberus to be good for Humanity (because then Cerberus can do more in its mission to overall help the whole-sum of humanity).



This isn't insane or megalomaniacle or any such thing. This is really, really common with any organization that thinks it does a public good. 'What's good for the teacher's unions is good for the kids.' 'What's good for the military is good for the nation.' 'What's bad for the police is bad for the citizenry.'



We all do this. Me, you, and other you reading over there. The most basic, fundamental concepts of fairness and good assume self-identification with others we are not: 'what's good for me is good for you.' 'What's not good for me is not good for you.'




#121
Sidac

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Im all for humans on top too but how can you hate on Garrus and Thane?! As I said I killed the council due to their lack of action in 1 but I wouldnt mind another council if it keeps the peace. Although, human dominance could start more hostilities for DLC which would be cool.

I plan for the new council to be 1 from each of my army of the damned. 1 rep from each rach that has been shat on by the current (for some former) council. Geth Council member, Rachnai Council member, and Krogan Council member, with the human chairman of course.

#122
Googlesaurus

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Moiaussi wrote...

Googlesaurus wrote...

TIM wants human dominance, not human exclusivity. Don't it make sense to work with your "enemy" in the short-term to climb over them in the long-term?


This is what we are told now. We are also told that any prior evidence to the contrary were merely 'rogue elements' (per TIM) or operations of other branches (per Miranda, which implies TIM is not actually in charge of Cerberus after all).

Next I suppose we'll be told that Toombs wasn't actually captured by Cerberus at all, but that TIM was the one who ensured he escaped, that TIM is actually secretly working with the Council towards galactic unity, and that he is really a renegade Reaper.....


Well TIM is only in charge of Cerberus' operations, and his actions are at least partly determined by the political-economic-military hegemony that financially backs Cerberus. I don't know what you mean by Miranda: her overview of the Normandy's operations, or disavowing herself from Cerberus after the Collector Mission?

The 'rogue elements' issue is suspicious. It's implied that TIM is a control freak who watches over each one of his operations, yet two important groups manage to pull wool over his eyes until they royally screw up? 

#123
Mr. Gogeta34

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I think TIM has evil "tendencies" but is ultimately an anti-hero of sorts.



And yes, without TIM, the universe would've already been doomed.

#124
Dean_the_Young

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Jagri wrote...

Still doesn't address the complete disregard for life but you make a case in which TIM isn't stupid and knows when to assist and aid others when it will help further his own goals. That and humanities relationship with the Salarians, Turians, and Asari during those times needed to be strong in order to advance.

Tell me what does TIM tend to do with people and experiments that out live their usefulness to him?

TIM doesn't demonstrate a complete disregard for life. Quite the opposite: the problem isn't that TIM disregards lives, but that he regards them, and then simply doesn't place individual lives on a highest pedastal like many people do. He has a regard for life: it happens to be a low regard compared to you, and one in which the many outweigh the few. But however low it may be, we have never seen, heard, or have had it implied that TIM has ever killed anyone without a point. Even in Retribution, where he embarked on personal revenge against someone who betrayed Cerberus, he put a point to having Grayson actually contribute to something larger.

It doesn't matter if the few are innocent. It doesn't matter if the few are unwilling. What does matter, is that the sacrifices of the few (willing or unwilling) either do, or can, have a plausible aspect to serving the greater. Is this morally abhorrent? When taken to it's logical extreme, it does mitigate the respect for the individual, which a firm western concept of importance. (Far less so, in other times or other places.) But at the same time, it's a firm demonstration of regard of the lives of the greater whole, which, when this is not considered, is also something we find culturally, morally, and ethically repulsive (someone who puts what they want infront of everyone else).

#125
AntiChri5

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Does the U.S. represent humanity? no Canada? no France? no   etc. etc.


None of those claim to represent humanity. The U.S. Represents the it's citizens France represents the french and Canada represents Canadians.

Cerberus and ALliance are intertwined they are connected in so many ways you have to be real stubborn to not see it


They used to be intertwined but seperated and after that had a few influencial people who were later arrested.

or you believe Alliance= good paragon  Cerberus=.evil renegade


And there go any illusions i had about your intelligence. That is an absurd assumption.