965 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

jbblue05 wrote...

You should be a journalist.

*blushes girlishly*

jbblue05 wrote...

I said idealists have lost touch with reality if they believe in pure equality and utopia is obtainable.

Human nature will always triumph..  Every government has done unethical things and they will continue to do unethical things that can benefit their peoplle or give them an advantage.

The cheap goods that Americans enjoy today are due to slavery across the world.  You taker away those cheap goods because slavery is wrong. Then prices start skyrocketing  people are going to complain and want those cheap goods again.

Oh, no one is arguing that society is some squeaky clean picture perfect image of ethical integrity.

It's just that I really don't think it's quite right to look at some of the horrible things Cerberus has done and shrug it away by saying, "Well that's human nature for you." I don't like it when people polarize things with thoughts like, "Utopia is impossible; therefore brutally experimenting on people to get an edge is okay." I know utopia is impossible. I still think TIM is wrong.

[jbblue05]

AntiChri5 wrote...

None of those claim to represent humanity. The U.S. Represents the it's citizens France represents the french and Canada represents Canadians.

Thanks for supporting my point

They used to be intertwined but seperated and after that had a few influencial people who were later arrested

.
Cerberus insisting the Alliance should co-develop with the turians the Normandy SR1.   The Alliance is pissed in Retribution that their HIGH RANKING OFFICIALS are being arrested by Turians.

I would say they are more intertwined than separated
but that's my opiniion

And there go any illusions i had about your intelligence. That is an absurd assumption.

HA! you lose you have to resort to insults.
Judging by some posters on here I wouldn't say I'm being absurd

I would say your in denial

[Bailyn242]

My response to the many posts since my last one was too long so I made it a blog entry here:

http://social.biowar...833/blog/12995/

Modifié par Bailyn242, 17 janvier 2011 - 09:25 .

[Drowsy0106]

How do u kids think a burning earth as seen in the trailer will effect your human dominance?



And would your opinion of TIM change if you find out he died a noble death defending the earth with the rest of the fleet when the Reapers first entered the Sol system?

[AntiChri5]

Thanks for supporting my point

I didn't. None of those nations claims to represent humanity and so they are irrelevant. They aren't making the same claims TIM is.

Cerberus insisting the Alliance should co-develop with the turians the Normandy SR1. 

Insisting is a far stronger word then i would use to describe it.

The Alliance is pissed in Retribution that their HIGH RANKING OFFICIALS are being arrested by Turians.

Don't remember gettig that impression.

I would say they are more intertwined than separated

Thousands of people work for the Alliance, a handful of them work for Cerberus. That isn't intertwined, that is simply a few infiltrators.

HA! you lose you have to resort to insults.

Lose what? You made a baseless assumption about me which is wrong, showing ignorance impatience and lack of critical thinking.

Judging by some posters on here I wouldn't say I'm being absurd I would say your in denial

Are you attempting to link my arguments and opinions to other peoples because i disagree with you on the same thing as they do?

[jbblue05]

Nightwriter wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

You should be a journalist.

*blushes girlishly*

jbblue05 wrote...

I said idealists have lost touch with reality if they believe in pure equality and utopia is obtainable.

Human nature will always triumph..  Every government has done unethical things and they will continue to do unethical things that can benefit their peoplle or give them an advantage.

The cheap goods that Americans enjoy today are due to slavery across the world.  You taker away those cheap goods because slavery is wrong. Then prices start skyrocketing  people are going to complain and want those cheap goods again.

Oh, no one is arguing that society is some squeaky clean picture perfect image of ethical integrity.

It's just that I really don't think it's quite right to look at some of the horrible things Cerberus has done and shrug it away by saying, "Well that's human nature for you." I don't like it when people polarize things with thoughts like, "Utopia is impossible; therefore brutally experimenting on people to get an edge is okay." I know utopia is impossible. I still think TIM is wrong.

Being the normal average citizen that I am Cerberus is definently EVIL.  Because I don't know the truth or the whole story about them only hearinng what the government and media want me to here.

But since I'm roleplaying as Shepard I can better understand Cerberus and their role in humanity's future

[Spartas Husky]

Noone is evil, we are all equally f.u.ck.ed up.



For every car there has to be someone willing to be the grease monkey. Someone willing to get the hands dirty.



Dont liek to admit it... but that guy from Kasumi's loyalty mission described it best.



There are some who get their hands dirty to maintain society's delusions of peace and stability.



Now of course.. those who do get their hnads dirty do so mostly because they actually enjoy it... not because they think is necessary and are martyrs who will live with a guilty conscious so others dont have ti.

[jbblue05]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I didn't. None of those nations claims to represent humanity and so they are irrelevant. They aren't making the same claims TIM is.

yeah you did I said humanity has many faces.   TIM also says Shepard is a symbol for humanity.  He also says him and SHepard have different roles in the upcoming war.

Like I said Tim was pissed you destroyed the CB. he was trying to send you on a guilt trip,  by screwing Cerberus you screwed Humanity and the Galaxy

Insisting is a far stronger word then i would use to describe it.

Tell me how do you think it went down?

Don't remember gettig that impression

Wow the book basically tells you the Alliance is pissed offf multiple times.  maybe you should re-read it..

Thousands of people work for the Alliance, a handful of them work for Cerberus. That isn't intertwined, that is simply a few infiltrators.

Those "infiltrators" happen to be high ranking officials with thousands of Alliance personnel looking up to them

Lose what? You made a baseless assumption about me which is wrong, showing ignorance impatience and lack of critical thinking.

insullting me is your idea of critical thinking   It was nothing personal I was making a generality about the anti-cerberus crowd

Are you attempting to link my arguments and opinions to other peoples because i disagree with you on the same thing as they do?

Well I do see similariteis . 
And their have been 100's of threads about Cerberus so things seem to overlap and have a deja vu effect

Modifié par jbblue05, 17 janvier 2011 - 09:51 .

[Theoristitis]

Someone With Mass wrote...

He just needs to be a bit more realistic and less...stupid.

You could say that about just about anybody other than Shepard. And to be honest, this is exactly what everyone's saying about Shepard.

[AntiChri5]

yeah you did I said humanity has many faces.   TIM also says Shepard is a symbol for humanity.  He also says him and SHepard have different roles in the upcoming war.

I neber disputed that humanity has "many faces". It is, in fact, what i have been arguing. The problem is that TIM thinks he is all of those faces.

Tell me how do you think it went down?

Cerberus had one of their people encourage the idea.

Wow the book basically tells you the Alliance is pissed offf multiple times.  maybe you should re-read it..

I guess it depends on your definition of pissed off. I got the impression they were more embarrased then anything else, and making noise to cover that.

Those "infiltrators" happen to be high ranking officials with thousands of Alliance personnel looking up to them

Irrelevant.

insullting me is your idea of critical thinking   It was nothing personal I was making a generality about the anti-cerberus crowd

No, it is not my idea of critical thinking. It is my idea of a suitable response to an offensive assumption. You made an assumption based on the opinions of people i share a single view with and attempted to use that to attack my argument.

And their have been 100's of threads about Cerberus so things seem to overlap and have a deja vu effect

I am me, not Cerberus Hater #29467. My opinions are my own, not taken from the Official Cerberus Hater handbook which was handed out at a meeting.

Any assumption otherwise is an insult.



My opinion: Any lofty ideals about protecting humanity that The Illusive Man once stood for have long since faded away. He has become corrupt and possibly insane.

[solsystem]

the illusive man is my bro.

[Slayer299]

Shadesofsiknas wrote...

I can see why people would consider him evil. But you know what they say. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

I see him as an invaluable leader in the resistance to the Reapers. Something that far precedes any other matter in the galaxy. If that means that a few have to be sacrificed so be it. My view is that I would rather stand trial after the Reapers are beaten than the alternative.

But if the Reapers were gone and no longer an issue in any way would you still consider him a 'freedom fighter'? Because then who's "freedom" would TIM be fighting for?

[jbblue05]

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

I neber disputed that humanity has "many faces". It is, in fact, what i have been arguing. The problem is that TIM thinks he is all of those faces.
[/quote]
Your perception I have mines

[quote]
Cerberus had one of their people encourage the idea.
[/quote]
Well i think TIM spoke to Alliance high command personally

[quote]
I guess it depends on your definition of pissed off. I got the impression they were more embarrased then anything else, and making noise to cover that.
[/quote]

I think if they were embarrassed they would fully cooperate to try to to redeem themselves and show the "true Alliance" is not connected with Cerberus
[quote]
Irrelevant.
[/quote]
I don't think its irrelevant
It makes me think maybe their is more to the Cerberus is rogue,  maybe Alliance and Cerberus scheme behind closed doors.
[quote]
No, it is not my idea of critical thinking. It is my idea of a suitable response to an offensive assumption. You made an assumption based on the opinions of people i share a single view with and attempted to use that to attack my argument.
[/quote]
Like I said I heard your argument so many times before.  Its  like death and taxes its expected everytime their is a Cerberus thread

[quote]
I am me, not Cerberus Hater #29467. My opinions are my own, not taken from the Official Cerberus Hater handbook which was handed out at a meeting.
Any assumption otherwise is an insult.

My opinion: Any lofty ideals about protecting humanity that The Illusive Man once stood for have long since faded away. He has become corrupt and possibly insane.[/quote]
[/quote]
Don't derail the topic by trying to make it personal.
You see it as an insult I don't. 
Well I think Tim is smart and resourceful.

Modifié par jbblue05, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:55 .

[AntiChri5]

Your perception I have mines

He outright says it.

I think if they were embarrassed they would fully cooperate to try to to redeem themselves and show the "true Alliance" is not connected with Cerberus

Every time an investigation into Cerberus starts the Alliance does co operate and try to get rid of them. But then the Cerberus plants make sure they don't. Besides, my point was they were embarassed afterwards, not beforehand or during.

Like I said I heard your argument so many times before.  Its  like death and taxes its expected everytime their is a Cerberus thread

If you have heard my arguments before then why have i had to clarify them? And why are you using one opinion to assume i have certain other views?

Don't derail the topic by trying to make it personal.

Don't derail the thread by making assumptions and trying to put words in my mouth.

Well I think Tim is smart and resourceful

Neither of these traits are mutually exclusive with the traits i attributed to TIM, furthermore i have never denied TIMs effectiveness and power, simply questioned his motives.

[Nightwriter]

jbblue05 wrote...

Well I think Tim is smart and resourceful.

Yet this does not, in and of itself, make him a good person.

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Still doesn't address the complete disregard for life but you make a case in which TIM isn't stupid and knows when to assist and aid others when it will help further his own goals. That and humanities relationship with the Salarians, Turians, and Asari during those times needed to be strong in order to advance.

Tell me what does TIM tend to do with people and experiments that out live their usefulness to him?

TIM doesn't demonstrate a complete disregard for life. Quite the opposite: the problem isn't that TIM disregards lives, but that he regards them, and then simply doesn't place individual lives on a highest pedastal like many people do. He has a regard for life: it happens to be a low regard compared to you, and one in which the many outweigh the few. But however low it may be, we have never seen, heard, or have had it implied that TIM has ever killed anyone without a point. Even in Retribution, where he embarked on personal revenge against someone who betrayed Cerberus, he put a point to having Grayson actually contribute to something larger.

It doesn't matter if the few are innocent. It doesn't matter if the few are unwilling. What does matter, is that the sacrifices of the few (willing or unwilling) either do, or can, have a plausible aspect to serving the greater. Is this morally abhorrent? When taken to it's logical extreme, it does mitigate the respect for the individual, which a firm western concept of importance. (Far less so, in other times or other places.) But at the same time, it's a firm demonstration of regard of the lives of the greater whole, which, when this is not considered, is also something we find culturally, morally, and ethically repulsive (someone who puts what they want infront of everyone else).

By this logic then medical research conducted under the Third Reich is justifiable because it has come to save countless future lives. Before it begins no this is not a comparsion of evils but merely a example of research conducted unethically that would come to benefit humanity. 

Paul Grayson is a example of TIM having some regard for human life? I think thats more a example of a vindictive nature. Killing two birds with one stone and getting the pleasure of seeing the man who betrayed him be tortured as he is twisted with Reaper technology.

Modifié par Jagri, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:22 .

[jbblue05]

AntiChri5 wrote...

He outright says it

only if you destroy the base.

Every time an investigation into Cerberus starts the Alliance does co operate and try to get rid of them. But then the Cerberus plants make sure they don't. Besides, my point was they were embarassed afterwards, not beforehand or during.

Wow your just proving my point  Alliance= good paragon  Creberus- Renegade evil

If you have heard my arguments before then why have i had to clarify them? And why are you using one opinion to assume i have certain other views?

I respond to your post and say that I've heard it before and propose what I think about it

Don't derail the thread by making assumptions and trying to put words in my mouth.

  I never put words in your mouth

Neither of these traits are mutually exclusive with the traits i attributed to TIM, furthermore i have never denied TIMs effectiveness and power, simply questioned his motives.

superficially his motives are to advance humanity,  but only TIM knows his own true motives

[jbblue05]

Nightwriter wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Well I think Tim is smart and resourceful.

Yet this does not, in and of itself, make him a good person.

I don't think so either.

But he does inspire loyaly from some of his employees and sponsors.

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Well I think Tim is smart and resourceful.

Yet this does not, in and of itself, make him a good person.

I don't think so either.

But he does inspire loyaly from some of his employees and sponsors.

For a time but when he shows his true colors he loses them. Once they get a glimpse of how cold, and callous he really is they find his methods questionable. Look at Paul Grayson or Miranda when he reveals his true colors to them. He's damaged goods, methinks his service during the first contact war bent him.

He reads like a sociopath.

[Nightwriter]

jbblue05 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Well I think Tim is smart and resourceful.

Yet this does not, in and of itself, make him a good person.

I don't think so either.

But he does inspire loyaly from some of his employees and sponsors.

But, I have this sneaking suspicion that he inspires loyalty from the good through deceit, and inspires loyalty from the bad through money and mutual villainy.

[Arijharn]

Jagri wrote...
By this logic then medical research conducted under the Third Reich is justifiable because it has come to save countless future lives. Before it begins no this is not a comparsion of evils but merely a example of research conducted unethically that would come to benefit humanity. 

My honest take? It is justified. Some good has come out of it, despite the monstrous nature of the experiments. If you feel strongly against this, then I suggest if you ever have a heart attack then you should just put your fate in the hands of god and do not allow the medical teams use a defibrillator on you.

In the case of TIM though, I think he has willingly placed himself to be in the position of becoming a pariah in order to 'advance humanity.' I think that's actually rather self-sacrificing to some degree, he has had to essentially give up his very identity to become who he has.

Jagri wrote...
Paul Grayson is a example of TIM having some regard for human life? I think thats more a example of a vindictive nature. Killing two birds with one stone and getting the pleasure of seeing the man who betrayed him be tortured as he is twisted with Reaper technology.

Yet he showed concern and an unwillingness to risk further teams to investigate the Derelict Reaper for the already lost science team and he funnelled aid money to the survivors of the attempted Collector abductions on Horizon. He is, if nothing else, a study of contrasts -- which makes him more human than not imo.

I'm not saying he is going to be a receipitant of a noble peace prize or anything, but there is no way that the Illusive Man is as cut-and-dried as what many people make him out to be.

[AntiChri5]

only if you destroy the base.

The vast majority of information gained in the game is optional, and/or exclusive to a sinfle path. So this is completely irrelevant.

Wow your just proving my point  Alliance= good paragon  Creberus- Renegade evil

It is outright stated in the book. It is what half the books plot is built on. I am not proving your absurd assumption, there is no connection between your assumption and my post. At all. Take your renegade and paragon labels and shove them up your ass. Can the assumptions.

I respond to your post and say that I've heard it before and propose what I think about it

You consistantly post irrelevant crap of no real value and with very little connection to my posts.

  I never put words in your mouth

You have done so several times.

superficially his motives are to advance humanity,  but only TIM knows his own true motives

His motives are perfectly clear.



To advance his own personal vision of humanity. No matter what any other human says about it and no matter how many he has to kill.

[Volus Warlord]

He is not evil. He is... pure. Pure of heart and will.



He is not so easily subject to needless emotional distractions like Shepard, and his crew.



He is not drawn to act in any easily predictable fashion out of "morals."



He does not see the need to try to impress others with actions of stupid, blind boldness.



He does not let the possibility of sexual escapades interfere with his true goal.



He does not **** his ability out to appease anyone.



He does not see naive idealism, only necessity.



One man, one vision. Pure.

[Arijharn]

One Vision! One Purpose! The Technology of Peace!

[Jagri]

Arijharn wrote...
My honest take? It is justified. Some good has come out of it, despite the monstrous nature of the experiments. If you feel strongly against this, then I suggest if you ever have a heart attack then you should just put your fate in the hands of god and do not allow the medical teams use a defibrillator on you.

In the case of TIM though, I think he has willingly placed himself to be in the position of becoming a pariah in order to 'advance humanity.' I think that's actually rather self-sacrificing to some degree, he has had to essentially give up his very identity to become who he has.

I don't believe its justified in my view despite the results given. I am positive that such fields of research would have been uncovered in more ethical studies but I am willing to admit the methods used were the most inhuman but quickest means to achieve results.

Yet he showed concern and an unwillingness to risk further teams to investigate the Derelict Reaper for the already lost science team and he funnelled aid money to the survivors of the attempted Collector abductions on Horizon. He is, if nothing else, a study of contrasts -- which makes him more human than not imo.

I'm not saying he is going to be a receipitant of a noble peace prize or anything, but there is no way that the Illusive Man is as cut-and-dried as what many people make him out to be.

Does he show consern? Unwillingness? I don't think anyone understands TIM besides TIM and that his actions should judge him more then what people "Think he is thinking".