965 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Well I think Tim is smart and resourceful.

Yet this does not, in and of itself, make him a good person.

I don't think so either.

But he does inspire loyaly from some of his employees and sponsors.

For a time but when he shows his true colors he loses them. Once they get a glimpse of how cold, and callous he really is they find his methods questionable. Look at Paul Grayson or Miranda when he reveals his true colors to them. He's damaged goods, methinks his service during the first contact war bent him.

He reads like a sociopath.

If Grayson doesn't raise Gillian he would never had betrayed Cerberus
Jacob is understandable and Miranda is completely out of character

[Arijharn]

Jagri wrote...
I don't believe its justified in my view despite the results given. I am positive that such fields of research would have been uncovered in more ethical studies but I am willing to admit the methods used were the most inhuman but quickest means to achieve results.

How can you be positive of that? Considering until the time of WW2, those things hadn't yet been discovered. Putting naked people into a freezing tank of water and measuring how long it took for them to die is going to be disgusting no matter which time line it occured. 

But, now I am actually curious, if you did have a heart attack, are you going to allow the use of a defibrillator? Maybe I'm 'speaking out of turn' or whatever, but I can't imagine that those people who died would hold it against those people who live due to advances in medicine gained principally from their deaths... but maybe that's just idealism on my part.

I'm not saying we should go out and massacre scores of people just to see what we could cook up next in medicinal science, just that we shouldn't be afraid of using things that may have come from unethical sources if it stands to reason that they'll save lives.

If I was murdered tonight by some twisted doctor who used the study of my body to increase your lifespan by a 3rd, then while that twisted doctor should absolutely get what he deserves, I don't think you shouldn't by able to take the option of having your lifespan increased by a 3rd due to result.

Jagri wrote...
Does he show consern? Unwillingness? I don't think anyone understands TIM besides TIM and that his actions should judge him more then what people "Think he is thinking".

He does, his actions provide that Horizon gets it's aid in the aftermath of the Collector attack, the survivors of the Gernsback I think also get Cerberus vessels sent (it's either what Shep says planetside, or the email afterwards), Cerberus scientists apparently help care for the trauma survivor if your Shephard is a colonist as well.

I think 'evil' is an incredibly stupid label to apply to anyone really. No one is uniformly evil and no one is uniformly good. I mean, just think of all those self-scribed Paragons on this very board who say that despite everything; they'll shoot TIM in the head without trial. Even the Morningstar had heroic qualities about himself.

[jbblue05]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The vast majority of information gained in the game is optional, and/or exclusive to a sinfle path. So this is completely irrelevant.

So one of your main points is now irrelevant

It is outright stated in the book. It is what half the books plot is built on. I am not proving your absurd assumption, there is no connection between your assumption and my post. At all. Take your renegade and paragon labels and shove them up your ass. Can the assumptions.

That is from Anderspn's perspective. Anderson is biased and is not a high-ranking Alliance official.  So your point is invalid.  Someone has a fragile ego

You consistantly post irrelevant crap of no real value and with very little connection to my posts.

The crap I am posting is relevant to the thread

You have done so several times.

No I haven't
This is putting words on someone's mouth

person1- I think Cerberus is useful in Humanity's advancement

person 2-  So you enjoy torturing little children and experimenting on innocent Asari and you suuport terrorism  
your an unethical and terrible person

person 1-     I never said that


That's putting words in someone's mouth

His motives are perfectly clear.

To advance his own personal vision of humanity. No matter what any other human says about it and no matter how many he has to kill.

Doesn't every Shepard have their own vision for humanity.
Your making TIM sound like a dictator which he isn't.
Throughout the games and books he's a real diplomat and is hands-off and let people do what they do best.

Modifié par jbblue05, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:44 .

[AntiChri5]

So one of your main points is now irrelevant

No, your point is irrelevant.

That is from Anderspn's perspective. Anderson is biased and is not a high-ranking Alliance official.  So your point is invalid.  Someone has a fragile ego

Anderson is either an Admiral or Councilor, making him a high ranking official. Not only that, he has been an alliance soldier ever since he left school. I am sure he has a better grasp on the situation then you do. Stop misusing labels in pathetic ad hominem attempts.

No I haven't

You have repeatedly done so, also going so far as to attempt to force a false connection between my opinion on TIM and the absurd in game morality while also making assumptions about my opinion of the Alliance.

Your making TIM sound like a dictator which he isn't.

Throughout the games and books he's a real diplomat and is hands-off and let people do what they do best.

He has political candidates and religious figures he disagrees with assassinated so that those he agrees with can take their place.

He is a facist shadow dictator.

[Jagri]

Arijharn wrote...
How can you be positive of that? Considering until the time of WW2, those things hadn't yet been discovered. Putting naked people into a freezing tank of water and measuring how long it took for them to die is going to be disgusting no matter which time line it occured. 

But, now I am actually curious, if you did have a heart attack, are you going to allow the use of a defibrillator? Maybe I'm 'speaking out of turn' or whatever, but I can't imagine that those people who died would hold it against those people who live due to advances in medicine gained principally from their deaths... but maybe that's just idealism on my part.

I'm not saying we should go out and massacre scores of people just to see what we could cook up next in medicinal science, just that we shouldn't be afraid of using things that may have come from unethical sources if it stands to reason that they'll save lives.

If I was murdered tonight by some twisted doctor who used the study of my body to increase your lifespan by a 3rd, then while that twisted doctor should absolutely get what he deserves, I don't think you shouldn't by able to take the option of having your lifespan increased by a 3rd due to result.

I did say that exsisting research should be used to best aid people and humanity as a whole but I would never support conducting future unethical research. I am certain others would explore that field of research if the Third Reich researchers had not it just be a matter of time.

He does, his actions provide that Horizon gets it's aid in the aftermath of the Collector attack, the survivors of the Gernsback I think also get Cerberus vessels sent (it's either what Shep says planetside, or the email afterwards), Cerberus scientists apparently help care for the trauma survivor if your Shephard is a colonist as well.

I think 'evil' is an incredibly stupid label to apply to anyone really. No one is uniformly evil and no one is uniformly good. I mean, just think of all those self-scribed Paragons on this very board who say that despite everything; they'll shoot TIM in the head without trial. Even the Morningstar had heroic qualities about himself.

Oh I believe TIM shows signs of being a Psychopath... I just question his mental health rather then alignment.

[Vaenier]

Jagri wrote...

He does, his actions provide that Horizon gets it's aid in the aftermath of the Collector attack, the survivors of the Gernsback I think also get Cerberus vessels sent (it's either what Shep says planetside, or the email afterwards), Cerberus scientists apparently help care for the trauma survivor if your Shephard is a colonist as well.

I think 'evil' is an incredibly stupid label to apply to anyone really. No one is uniformly evil and no one is uniformly good. I mean, just think of all those self-scribed Paragons on this very board who say that despite everything; they'll shoot TIM in the head without trial. Even the Morningstar had heroic qualities about himself.

Oh I believe TIM shows signs of being a Psychopath... I just question his mental health rather then alignment.

ok, that one might be true. from the wiki article:

• Superficial charm and good intelligence
• Presence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking
• Presence of nervousness or psychoneurotic manifestations
• Unreliability
• Untruthfulness and insincerity
• Lack of remorse and shame
• Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
• Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience
• Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love
• General poverty in major affective reactions
• Specific loss of insight
• Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations
• Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink and sometimes without
• Suicide threats rarely carried out
• Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated
• Failure to follow any life plan.

[Fromyou]

by evil i mean just a jerk a harm to all

[jbblue05]

AntiChri5 wrote...

No, your point is irrelevant.

no you just said your last point is irrelevant. 
Remeber "Cerberus is Humanity"
That's one of your reasons why Tim is evil and you just said 2 posts ago its irrelevant

Anderson is either an Admiral or Councilor, making him a high ranking official. Not only that, he has been an alliance soldier ever since he left school. I am sure he has a better grasp on the situation then you do. Stop misusing labels in pathetic ad hominem attempts.

Anderson is not high ranking member in the Alliance military.  Rear Admiral is not as high ranking as you might think.
Anderson pisses off Alliance command in Retribution and is suspended indefinently..
I don't think Anderson has a good of grasp on the situation as you might think.  Because of Anderson and good feeling between the Turians and Alliance are gone.

I'm misusing labels and ad hominem attempts?

You have repeatedly done so, also going so far as to attempt to force a false connection between my opinion on TIM and the absurd in game morality while also making assumptions about my opinion of the Alliance.

Quit playing like the victim I never assumed anything about you,
Its pretty obvious you don't like TIM and its obvious you don't believe the Alliance and Cerberus are willing partners. Which is what I posted.

He has political candidates and religious figures he disagrees with assassinated so that those he agrees with can take their place.
He is a facist shadow dictator.

He had the pope killed because the pope was openly anti-turian and anti-salarian.
Political assasinations and Corrupt politicians   tell me something new.  And I'm under the impression Cerberus didn't go "rogue"  yet and they were still under Alliance rule.
Let me guess the good Alliance would never codone political assasinations and evil TIM is a 100% behind it

[Last Vizard]

Fromyou wrote...

If you think about it is the Illusive Man really that evil. Sure at points he tricks you but what you discover is important things. While unethical he still finds out major things. It seems like he focuses more on the end justifies the means.

Edit: Okay the standard for evil is harmful, selfish, out for only one's gain, murderer, and things like that

No Illusive Man.... no Shepperd in ME 2.... pretty sure TIM just saved the whole Goddamn galaxy in ME 2 and ME 3.

Modifié par Last Vizard, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:03 .

[Encarmine]

Last Vizard wrote...

No Illusive Man.... no Shepperd in ME 2.... pretty sure TIM just saved the whole Goddamn galaxy in ME 2 and ME 3.

This wins the entire debate. I take this quote and virtually beat to death anyone who disagrees with it.

[AntiChri5]

no you just said your last point is irrelevant. 

Remeber "Cerberus is Humanity" That's one of your reasons why Tim is evil and you just said 2 posts ago its irrelevant

First, i never said TIM was evil.

Second, there is no way you can actually be this retarded. I was clearly saying that your point was irrelevant, right after i presented an argument of why it is irrelevant.

Why would i present an argument as to why your point is irrelevant and then say mine is?

Anderson is not high ranking member in the Alliance military.  Rear Admiral is not as high ranking as you might think.

Anderson pisses off Alliance command in Retribution and is suspended indefinently..

I don't think Anderson has a good of grasp on the situation as you might think.  Because of Anderson and good feeling between the Turians and Alliance are gone.

Admiral may not be the highest rank there is, bit an admiral is still very high ranking. Anderson embarasses a few politicians and resigns so he doesn't have to deal with the bull****. There is more potential for diplomatic relations now then there was before. Before, the turians knew that the alliance was harboring terrorists who were their enemy. Now, they know that the alliance is not, and there are people within the alliance who consider Cerberus as much an enemy as they do.

I'm misusing labels and ad hominem attempts?

Your constant attempts to invalidate my arguments by saying i am just a naive or deluded paragon and think Alliance = good guy paragon and cerberus = bad guy renegade.

Quit playing like the victim I never assumed anything about you,

Its pretty obvious you don't like TIM and its obvious you don't believe the Alliance and Cerberus are willing partners. Which is what I posted.

Bull****. You admitted to making assumptions earlier.

He had the pope killed because the pope was openly anti-turian and anti-salarian.

Aren't you the one who said we don't know his motives?

Political assasinations and Corrupt politicians   tell me something new. 

So democracy being subverted is fine for you?

And I'm under the impression Cerberus didn't go "rogue"  yet and they were still under Alliance rule.

We don't know how formal the connection between Cerberus and the Alliance was at it's strongest. We cannot confirm or deny that the Alliance had knowledge of or authorised Cerberus's less savoury actions.

Let me guess the good Alliance would never codone political assasinations

Of course they would. They are a growing superpower.

and evil TIM is a 100% behind it

I still haven't said he is evil, and we still don't know the degree of Cerberus' autonomy.

[KainrycKarr]

Just because TIM brought Shepard doesn't excuse everything else he and his organization have done, sorry.



It just means he's smart enough to realize Shepard being alive increases everyone's chances of survival, so it's basically nothing more than self-preservation, which is neither evil nor good.

[Sidac]

Ive said it once before and ill say it again the alliance might tell you Cerberus is bad but the Alliance benefits greatly from Cerberus' existance.

[Jagri]

Encarmine wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

No Illusive Man.... no Shepperd in ME 2.... pretty sure TIM just saved the whole Goddamn galaxy in ME 2 and ME 3.

This wins the entire debate. I take this quote and virtually beat to death anyone who disagrees with it.

I counter that with Cerbeus had a hand in the SR1 Normandy! Like anything else they have involement with it exploded horriably and killed Shepard. So when Cerberus brough him/her back that made them even. This is a joke reply

Modifié par Jagri, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:46 .

[Encarmine]

Actions define the man, history would remember TIM as a hero, due to him saving Shepard, thus the Galaxy.



Trust me when i say this, if it was 1944, and suddenly Aliens invaded earth and the ****s and Adolf Hitler saved the planet from being destroyed. How do you think history would remember them? Past actions can be cancelled out by present ones.



Disclaimer: I know the ****s were super evil

[Val Seleznyov]

He's definately evil. If you give him the collector base, the sun behind him stays a very menacing orange colour, but if you defy him and destroy it, it turns paragon blue.

[gloops]

He's not evil. If anything, he's a hero.

[jbblue05]

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

First, i never said TIM was evil.
Second, there is no way you can actually be this retarded. I was clearly saying that your point was irrelevant, right after i presented an argument of why it is irrelevant.
Why would i present an argument as to why your point is irrelevant and then say mine is?
[/quote]
You did say TIM was evil you said he was probably evil which means you mostly believe he's evil.
I am a retard now   How can you keep throwing personal attacks at me and the mods do nothing

You clearly said Cerberus is Humanity line is a reason why TIM is evil.  I said he only says it if you destroy the base.  Than you said its completely irrelevant due to different playthrough styles.  So you did say the Cerberus is humanity line is irrelevant.
[quote]
Admiral may not be the highest rank there is, bit an admiral is still very high ranking. Anderson embarasses a few politicians and resigns so he doesn't have to deal with the bull****. There is more potential for diplomatic relations now then there was before. Before, the turians knew that the alliance was harboring terrorists who were their enemy. Now, they know that the alliance is not, and there are people within the alliance who consider Cerberus as much an enemy as they do
[/quote]
Anderson is a rear admiral
Anderson embarasses the entire Alliiance not just a few people.
Their is more potential for distrust between the Alliance and the Council.  political sh!tstorm.
I'm not going into detail just look up the Captain Anderson's betrayal thread.
And their are people in the Alliance who support Cerberus especially high ranking officials

[quote]
Your constant attempts to invalidate my arguments by saying i am just a naive or deluded paragon and think Alliance = good guy paragon and cerberus = bad guy renegade.
[/quote]
Because you clearly think Cerberus is tainting the Alliance and you don't believe the Alliance is  intertwined with Cerberus
[quote]
Bull****. You admitted to making assumptions earlier.
[/quote]
I saw generalities in your argument and they held true based on your posts

[quote]
Aren't you the one who said we don't know his motives?
[/quote]
Superficially you know his motives but not his true motives.  Its pretty obvious Anti-genophage pope was assasinated for better relations with Salarians
[quote]
So democracy being subverted is fine for you?
[/quote]
The Alliance isn't a true democracy

[quote]
We don't know how formal the connection between Cerberus and the Alliance was at it's strongest. We cannot confirm or deny that the Alliance had knowledge of or authorised Cerberus's less savoury actions
[/quote]
Exactly.
[quote]
Of course they would. They are a growing superpower.
[/quote]
Exactly
[quote]
I still haven't said he is evil, and we still don't know the degree of Cerberus' autonomy.[/quote]
[/quote]
You did say he was evil  check around page 5.
Cerberus is still a mystery

Modifié par jbblue05, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:55 .

[RAF1940]

TIM isn't evil. He is awesome.

[Alexander Kogan]

In Mass Effect: Retribution he had Paul Grayson experimented on and turned into a slave of the Reapers, and over half of his men are heartless xenophobic bastards. A perfect example is Kai Leng, a ruthless agent of Cerberus who was the murderer of Liselle(the daughter of Aria T'Loak). It's because of Kai Leng that TIM forced/tricked Aria into working for him.



TIM is evil in one way or another but more than half of his followers definitely ARE EVIL. I REALLY want to help Aria by proving to her that Kai Leng and Cerberus are the real murderers of her daughter and not Paul Grayson. Please allow us to do that BioWare? Even Aria doesn't deserve to suffer like this.

[Moiaussi]

Last Vizard wrote...

No Illusive Man.... no Shepperd in ME 2.... pretty sure TIM just saved the whole Goddamn galaxy in ME 2 and ME 3.

Other than the fact that the galaxy was in jeopardy in ME2 because TIM withheld vital information from the Alliance and Council, you might have a point. Artificially stacking the game so your piece appears to be a hero isn't 'saving' per se.

If he had simply warned the Alliance of his suspicions regarding Horizon via his agents in the Alliance, they could have had the ground cannon ready to go and a fleet hiding behind a large celestial object. There was only one Collector crusier, so take it out and they would have had all the time in the world to find and take out the base.

No crusier, no smoothies, no baby reaper.

Instead is is playing fast and loose with Humanity's survival just to make himself look good.

[gloops]

In Mass Effect: Retribution he had Paul Grayson experimented on and turned into a slave of the Reapers

Those experiments were required. What, would you prefer he ordered them to be performed on some innocent rather than a guy like Grayson?

and over half of his men are heartless xenophobic bastards.

Got any numbers to back up that claim?

[AntiChri5]

[quote]You did say TIM was evil you said he was probably evil which means you mostly believe he's evil.[/quote]

Probably evil does not mean mostly evil. It means there is a good chance he is evil. Either way, it is not a definitive statement.

[quote]I am a retard now   How can you keep throwing personal attacks at me and the mods do nothing[/quote]

I did not call you a retard. I said you were not a retarded.

[quote]You clearly said Cerberus is Humanity line is a reason why TIM is evil[/quote]

NO I DIDN'T. I said it made me question his mental health.

[quote] I said he only says it if you destroy the base.  Than you said its completely irrelevant due to different playthrough styles.[/quote]

I said that your statement that he only says it if you destroy the base is irrelevant because almost all information is optional or exclusive to certain paths. I never said that my central point is irrelevant. Why the **** would i?

[quote]So you did say the Cerberus is humanity line is irrelevant.[/quote]

No, i didn't. Get some ****ing reading comprehension.

[quote]Their is more potential for distrust between the Alliance and the Council.  political sh!tstorm.[/quote]

The reason for the distrust has been removed.

[quote]And their are people in the Alliance who support Cerberus especially high ranking officials[/quote]

Not anymore.

[quote]Because you clearly think Cerberus is tainting the Alliance[/quote]

They very clearly were. They had agents who infiltrated the Alliance and subverted it's interests in favour of Cerberus. That isn't up for debate, it is fact. That doesn't mean anything you said about my motives or views on paragon/renegade are true.

[quote] and you don't believe the Alliance is not intertwined with Cerberus[/quote]

If having agents infiltrate means that they are intertwined then america and the ussr were intertwined.

[quote]I saw generalities in your argument and they held true based on your posts[/quote]

You see a great many things that aren't there.

[quote]Superficially you know his motives but not his true motives.  Its pretty obvious Anti-genophage pope was assasinated for better relations with Salarians[/quote]

That isn't obvious at all, it is barely even plausible.

[quote]The Alliance isn't a true democracy[/quote]

Cerberus assassinated a candidate running for office so that their patsy would get in. This is a very clear subversion of democracy. How would you feel if the person you were going to vote fpr was assasinated?

[quote]Exactly[/quote]

Yes, exactly, i defeated your argument.

[quote]Exactly[/quote]

Yes, exactly, i dispelled yet another assumption you made about me and my views by completely disagreeing with what you said my opinion was.

[quote]You did say he was evil  check around page 5.[/quote]

No, i didn't.







I honestly cannot believe anyone could possibly have such poor reading comprehension as you do. Are you simply trolling?

[S-A128]

The illusive man is evil and rotten to the very core. I feel good for betraying him. he wanted that base for himself i will not let him. he might send everyone in Cerberus to hunt you down. I wanted the Collectors stopped for good and destroying the base was good enough. You saw the experiments Cerberus did. The Illusive Man can cry us a river.

[Alexander Kogan]

I REALLY want to hunt down some of the illusive man's top lieutenants, Kai Leng being at the top of my list. That monster killed Aria T'Loaks' daughter Liselle in ME: Retribution. Aria deserves to know the truth that Kai Leng and Cerberus are the cause of Liselles' death and not Paul Grayson. Even Aria doesn't deserve to suffer like this.