965 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

TIMmy is far from evil, he just a bit blinded by his his idealism. It is fully understandable if some of his victims and enemies (=basicaly everyone) considers him evil though.

[Markinator_123]

Alexander Kogan wrote...

I REALLY want to hunt down some of the illusive man's top lieutenants, Kai Leng being at the top of my list. That monster killed Aria T'Loaks' daughter Liselle in ME: Retribution. Aria deserves to know the truth that Kai Leng and Cerberus are the cause of Liselles' death and not Paul Grayson. Even Aria doesn't deserve to suffer like this.

I wouldn't mind killing Aria myself.

[jbblue05]

[Edit: Post removed, copy sent to poster. Take your personal argument to PM. - Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:31 .

[Pacifien]

AntiChri5 and jbblue05, take your personal argument with each other to PM. I see nothing but nitpicking each other's arguments to the point where you guys probably aren't even looking at the larger picture while occasionally making snide remarks at each chance you get. Quit it, both of you.

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...

 Since we only ever see him as a hologram though, I am still holding out hope that he will end up being revealed as a Prothean AI set up to watch over humanity, sort of the second foundation to Vigil's first.

Er, sorry. While Shep only sees him a hologram, there are plenty of time in the game where the POV is placed in his office, and it's Shep who is holographic.

[Bluko]

I dunno if I'd call him evil, but he certainly isn't a good guy. More of a criminal then anything else. He does some occasional good things, though more often bad, but it's pretty clear he has his own schemes. Pretty sure to him Shepard is just another expendable tool in his bid to dominate the galaxy. Let's face it he only wants to stop the Reapers so he can rule over the galaxy with impunity when all is said and done.

[Fixers0]

From the Mass effect wiki.

Cerberus is a human-survivalist paramilitary group led by the enigmatic Illusive Man. Cerberus' core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Systems Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them. Nevertheless, both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization and will prosecute identified Cerberus agents accordingly.

I Know enough.

Modifié par Fixers0, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:38 .

[gloops]

Pretty sure to him Shepard is just another expendable tool in his bid to dominate the galaxy.

Shepard is expendable? When you spent billions of credits to have him bought back from the dead? Yeah, I'm not buying this at all.

Let's face it he only wants to stop the Reapers so he can rule over the galaxy with impunity when all is said and done.

Maybe he wants to stop the Reapers because he actually cares about humanity and perhaps the other races in the galaxy.

[Arijharn]

What bonafide terrorist acts has Cerberus performed? Attacks on military targets by their very nature can not be described as terrorism.

[didymos1120]

Arijharn wrote...

 Attacks on military targets by their very nature can not be described as terrorism.

Tell that to the U.S.S Cole.  Or the the Pentagon on 9/11.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

From the Mass effect wiki.

Cerberus is a human-survivalist paramilitary group led by the enigmatic Illusive Man. Cerberus' core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Systems Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the Citadel races. Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them. Nevertheless, both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization and will prosecute identified Cerberus agents accordingly.

I Know enough.

FYI:

Mass Effect Wikia is run by a couple of idiots who think that the events of Redemption occured before the events of the Ascension.

Other than that, Nice definition of "Evil" in the OP!

[gloops]

The Alliance and Council propaganda says it's a terrorist organization, so it must be a terrorist organization!

Modifié par gloops, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:56 .

[Arijharn]

didymos1120 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

 Attacks on military targets by their very nature can not be described as terrorism.

Tell that to the U.S.S Cole.  Or the the Pentagon on 9/11.

I suggest you read up the wikipedia entries for the U.S.S Cole particularly the questions raised by Clinton's advisors. 

EDIT: 'President Bill Clinton declared, "If, as it now appears, this was an act of terrorism, it was a despicable and cowardly act. We will find out who was responsible and hold them accountable". Some critics have pointed out that, under U.S. law, an attack against a military target does not meet the legal definition of terrorism[25] (see: 22 USC § 2656f(d)(2)).'

EDIT 2: Was the pentagon attack a terrorist attack because it was performed on the pentagon, or was it a terrorist attack because it killed civilian passengers?

Modifié par Arijharn, 18 janvier 2011 - 07:46 .

[jma2286]

TIM is probably an agent of the alliance. I'd compare him to the Batman we saw at the end of Chris Nolan's Dark Knight, where he accepts that he can be the bad guy if it gets the job done. He becomes the "murderer" of Harvey Dent, and rides off being chased by the police.



Same thing here; alliance is the Gotham police chief and Batman is Cerberus and TIM.



Shepard's character is either Harvey Dent who has years of military training or a Batman who's figured that out from the beginning and knows to pick the side with the guns, the money with the plan.

[Jagri]

Arijharn wrote...

What bonafide terrorist acts has Cerberus performed? Attacks on military targets by their very nature can not be described as terrorism.

MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

MSV is modular conveyor class vessel used primarly by civilians for the purpose of carrying passangers, cargo, and other related fuctionality. Would the sabotage and destruction of this civilian type of passanger vessel be the bonafide terrorist act you are inquiring about?

Modifié par Jagri, 18 janvier 2011 - 07:29 .

[Arijharn]

Jagri wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

What bonafide terrorist acts has Cerberus performed? Attacks on military targets by their very nature can not be described as terrorism.

MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

MSV is modular conveyor class vessel used primarly by civilians for the purpose of carrying passangers, cargo, and other related fuctionality. Would the sabotage and destruction of this civilian type of passanger vessel be the bonafide terrorist act you are inquiring about?

Did they make a public claim saying they did it? If it was attributed to 'faulty engineering' then while they have undoubtedly performed a dastardly deed, they haven't put forward their manifesto as responsible. To me; that sounds more 'black-ops' than terrorism.

[Jagri]

Arijharn wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

What bonafide terrorist acts has Cerberus performed? Attacks on military targets by their very nature can not be described as terrorism.

MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

MSV is modular conveyor class vessel used primarly by civilians for the purpose of carrying passangers, cargo, and other related fuctionality. Would the sabotage and destruction of this civilian type of passanger vessel be the bonafide terrorist act you are inquiring about?

Did they make a public claim saying they did it? If it was attributed to 'faulty engineering' then while they have undoubtedly performed a dastardly deed, they haven't put forward their manifesto as responsible. To me; that sounds more 'black-ops' than terrorism.

(see: 22 USC § 2656f(d)(2)).'

(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;

Does this defination that you have provide yourself state that Cerberus need make a public claim of the actions they taken in order to be a act of terrorism or does it simply state that the act be politically motivated violence perpetrated against a noncombatant target?

Modifié par Jagri, 18 janvier 2011 - 07:49 .

[Arijharn]

Jagri wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

What bonafide terrorist acts has Cerberus performed? Attacks on military targets by their very nature can not be described as terrorism.

MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

MSV is modular conveyor class vessel used primarly by civilians for the purpose of carrying passangers, cargo, and other related fuctionality. Would the sabotage and destruction of this civilian type of passanger vessel be the bonafide terrorist act you are inquiring about?

Did they make a public claim saying they did it? If it was attributed to 'faulty engineering' then while they have undoubtedly performed a dastardly deed, they haven't put forward their manifesto as responsible. To me; that sounds more 'black-ops' than terrorism.

(see: 22 USC § 2656f(d)(2)).'

(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;

Does this defination that you have provide yourself state that Cerberus need make a public claim of the actions they taken in order to be a act of terrorism or does it simply state that the act be politically motivated violence pepetrated against a noncombatant target?

I don't know to be honest. I used it because it was a quote made by critics at the time, not because I claim to be an expert on the subject matter myself. But do note that those currently proclaimed as terrorists make public announcements claiming credit for actions.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

Did they make a public claim saying they did it? If it was attributed to 'faulty engineering' then while they have undoubtedly performed a dastardly deed, they haven't put forward their manifesto as responsible. To me; that sounds more 'black-ops' than terrorism.

Sounds like hair splitting to me... semantics. One doesn't have to claim responsibility to generate unrest or 'terror.'

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Did they make a public claim saying they did it? If it was attributed to 'faulty engineering' then while they have undoubtedly performed a dastardly deed, they haven't put forward their manifesto as responsible. To me; that sounds more 'black-ops' than terrorism.

Sounds like hair splitting to me... semantics. One doesn't have to claim responsibility to generate unrest or 'terror.'

If that's true, then all black ops are terrorist attacks then. The Genophage, the actions of Asari Commando's, even Spectre's.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

If that's true, then all black ops are terrorist attacks then. The Genophage, the actions of Asari Commando's, even Spectre's.

Many of them do fit the definition, yes. This one of the reasons they are called 'black ops' instead of strictly 'espionage.'

Modifié par Moiaussi, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:16 .

[Sandbox47]

He is evil to the core. Or the bone. And he's stupid. Cunning, but daft as a brush.

[GuardianAngel470]

TIM is not a terrorist under any circumstances. He has never conducted an operation for the sole purpose of inciting terror in a populace.



All of his operations have been designed to further the cause of humanity in whatever capacity.



He also isn't evil. Whereas Hitler killed millions because he hated them plain and simple, TIM kills people because he believes it furthers the cause of humanity.



However, I don't like him and would kill him if given the opportunity. He's a risk and especially after Anderson cripples Cerberus in Retribution not worth the trouble.



No amount of aid from Cerberus in their current state is worth the risk they pose. While they don't have the numbers to provide any help just one man is all it takes to send the galaxy into chaos. He just so happens to have the perfect man for the job, Kai Leng.

[marshalleck]

Jagri wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

What bonafide terrorist acts has Cerberus performed? Attacks on military targets by their very nature can not be described as terrorism.

MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

MSV is modular conveyor class vessel used primarly by civilians for the purpose of carrying passangers, cargo, and other related fuctionality. Would the sabotage and destruction of this civilian type of passanger vessel be the bonafide terrorist act you are inquiring about?

All turians serve in their military, so this might be considered a military target depending on Ursivus' status--especially since the turian in question was a hawk, an agitator, possibly an aggressor. 

Collateral damage is regrettable, but sometimes unavoidable.

Modifié par marshalleck, 18 janvier 2011 - 09:06 .

[Moiaussi]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

TIM is not a terrorist under any circumstances. He has never conducted an operation for the sole purpose of inciting terror in a populace.

All of his operations have been designed to further the cause of humanity in whatever capacity.

He also isn't evil. Whereas Hitler killed millions because he hated them plain and simple, TIM kills people because he believes it furthers the cause of humanity.

However, I don't like him and would kill him if given the opportunity. He's a risk and especially after Anderson cripples Cerberus in Retribution not worth the trouble.

No amount of aid from Cerberus in their current state is worth the risk they pose. While they don't have the numbers to provide any help just one man is all it takes to send the galaxy into chaos. He just so happens to have the perfect man for the job, Kai Leng.

So you feel that Stalin wasn't evil either? Or Mao? Or any other leader who killed thousands in the name of furthering their country? How many must die 'in the name of the state', not in direct defense of the state, but 'just in case' to consider them 'evil?