1044 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

moilami wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...


As I made clear before, I do not consider the party characters an extension of the player.  The player has their character that they define and roleplay.  By roleplaying this character they interact with the companions.  This is my playstyle, and those with similar ones are more likely to see this as a benefit than anyone with your playstyle.

But there was this one smart clarification by Mad which basicly said that in CRPG you are both Dungeon Master and Player. You are DM when you chose what your companions wear and how they develop, and you are Player when you play your char.

Now this new BioWare way makes you less a Dungeon Master. It trades your DM powers to help you get more immersed. I pretty much believe it is the right choise for one playthrough, if done well. But for more than one playthrough it begins to be not so good because you can't do so much experimental stuff.

I highly dispute this line of thinking.  You are not the dungeon master the game making company is the dungeon master.  No matter how much you wish other wise and just like a real dungeon master the words 'Because that's just the way it is." is perfectly valid.

[upsettingshorts]

moilami wrote...
But for more than one playthrough it begins to be not so good because you can't do so much experimental stuff.

I'm going to keep saying this until the game is released and I'm either vindicated or proven wrong, but I genuinely expect that the framed narrative will more than make up for the more obvious reductions in player agency with regards to the viability of replays.

[Heimdall]

moilami wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...


As I made clear before, I do not consider the party characters an extension of the player.  The player has their character that they define and roleplay.  By roleplaying this character they interact with the companions.  This is my playstyle, and those with similar ones are more likely to see this as a benefit than anyone with your playstyle.

But there was this one smart clarification by Mad which basicly said that in CRPG you are both Dungeon Master and Player. You are DM when you chose what your companions wear and how they develop, and you are Player when you play your char.

Now this new BioWare way makes you less a Dungeon Master. It trades your DM powers to help you get more immersed. I pretty much believe it is the right choise for one playthrough, if done well. But for more than one playthrough it begins to be not so good because you can't do so much experimental stuff.

  It depends on your playstyle and how you roleplay.  I'm never the DM, when the companions put on new armor and weapons it is because my PC gave it to them off screen and they agreed to.  They develope the way they do because of my PC's advice.  I suppose that's why I'm not really bothered by such changes.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:08 .

[Xewaka]

Felfenix wrote...
Fortunately there are games out there just for him: Previous Bioware games. If you don't want something new, then stick with the old.

Because clearly, asking to try and improve existing mechanics instead of throwing it out of the window is madness.

[Sylvius the Mad]

moilami wrote...

 But for more than one playthrough it begins to be not so good because you can't do so much experimental stuff.

I find the experimenting to be the fun part.  A lot of it is experimental roleplaying.

I usually play the gme once through just to learn the game's scope and discover the setting.  Then I start again and actually have fun with it.

But if that fun part isn't available, why even bother with the first one?

[upsettingshorts]

Xewaka wrote...

Because clearly, asking to try and improve existing mechanics instead of throwing it out of the window is madness.

There are people on this forum, myself included, who view every change they've made as improvements to what made previous Bioware games great.

[moilami]

Uzzy wrote...

I do rather agree with Sylvius here. I'm seeing no valid reason why I should be prevented entirely from letting characters use bows, or swords or armour. If you want to portray certain characters as having mastered various fighting styles, give them bonuses to those fighting styles, so Isabela might have a large bonus to daggers. You don't need to block off other options, so give us options, not restrictions!

I rather enjoyed having Morrigan get some heavy armour and start using a sword, so it'd have been nice to see such decisions be possible in DA2.

Can't Morri use swords and armours in DA? If you just pump her STR she should be able to do it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm going to keep saying this until the game is released and I'm either vindicated or proven wrong, but I genuinely expect that the framed narrative will more than make up for the more obvious reductions in player agency with regards to the viability of replays.

I want to be clear that I don't think the framed narrative is a problem at all.  I liked the framed narrative as an idea, and I'm excited to see how it works out.

I don't see anty obvious problems with the framed narrative, and I think that making the narrator explicitly unreliable will really aid player agency.  I'm looking forward to it.

The aspect of DA2 that looks like it's a problem for replayability it's the uncustomisable companions.

[eyesofastorm]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Because clearly, asking to try and improve existing mechanics instead of throwing it out of the window is madness.

There are people on this forum, myself included, who view every change they've made as improvements to what made previous Bioware games great.

Key word... great.  Previous games were great in your words.  Now you are saying changes to a formula that was GREAT will be improvements before you've even had hands on.  How does that work?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people on this forum, myself included, who view every change they've made as improvements to what made previous Bioware games great.

Whereas, I think they almost got it right with their first RPG (still some problems there, but a terrific effort), and have generally moved in the wrong direction ever since.

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Because clearly, asking to try and improve existing mechanics instead of throwing it out of the window is madness.

There are people on this forum, myself included, who view every change they've made as improvements to what made previous Bioware games great.

I disagree. Vehemently. Then again, my situation as a player whose native language has had no dub in Bioware games since Jade Empire (or was it KotOR?), any benefit that could come from voice acting is utterly lost on me. And the restrictions that a voiced protagonist impose during character creation are not worth a voice.

Felfenix wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
There
are people on this forum, myself included, who view every change
they've made as improvements to what made previous Bioware games great.

Then
you're clearly some dumb sellout console kiddy, blahblahblah. Anyone who isn't on the hate bandwagon, regardless of the facts and realities, is an unthinking tool on the dirty untrue optimist bandwagon. My statements are absolute fact, because I vehemently say so, and you're wrong.

No, he simply has a different opinion on what supposes an improvement and what not. But due to your openly hostile attitude towards people who disagree with you, I'm not sure why I should bother arguing.

Modifié par Xewaka, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:18 .

[Felfenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people on this forum, myself included, who view every change they've made as improvements to what made previous Bioware games great.

Then you're clearly some dumb sellout console kiddy, blahblahblah. Anyone who isn't on the hate bandwagon, regardless of the facts and realities, is an unthinking tool on the dirty untrue optimist bandwagon. My statements are absolute fact, because I vehemently say so, and you're wrong. If every game doesn't have the same graphics, characters, gameplay, and story as Baldur's Gate 2, I'm gonna nerdrage on the forums. Bioware should cater to unpleasable, unreasonable people like me only, and nobody else.

Modifié par Felfenix, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:18 .

[moilami]

Beerfish wrote...

moilami wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...


As I made clear before, I do not consider the party characters an extension of the player.  The player has their character that they define and roleplay.  By roleplaying this character they interact with the companions.  This is my playstyle, and those with similar ones are more likely to see this as a benefit than anyone with your playstyle.

But there was this one smart clarification by Mad which basicly said that in CRPG you are both Dungeon Master and Player. You are DM when you chose what your companions wear and how they develop, and you are Player when you play your char.

Now this new BioWare way makes you less a Dungeon Master. It trades your DM powers to help you get more immersed. I pretty much believe it is the right choise for one playthrough, if done well. But for more than one playthrough it begins to be not so good because you can't do so much experimental stuff.

I highly dispute this line of thinking.  You are not the dungeon master the game making company is the dungeon master.  No matter how much you wish other wise and just like a real dungeon master the words 'Because that's just the way it is." is perfectly valid.

Of course BioWare is Dungeon Master too, that is obvious. But unless you mind control your companions you have to be part-time Dungeon Master too. You see, there is no rule anywhere which would say "and thus there can be only One dungeon master".

[upsettingshorts]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Key word... great.  Previous games were great in your words.  Now you are saying changes to a formula that was GREAT will be improvements before you've even had hands on.  How does that work?

I don't know, obviously.  But then neither do the detractors.  I do figure, having experienced similar features in other games (such as the framed narrative in Alpha Protocol and The Witcher, and a voiced protagonist in Mass Effect 1-2) that they are features I enjoy, so I'm looking forward to them replacing features of older, great Bioware games that I either viewed as flaws or at best, nothing special.

I didn't say their old games were perfect.  I think the silent protagonist, for example, is terrible.  But I dealt with it, the same way people who hate voiced protagonists will deal with it in DA2.  Provided it isn't a dealbreaker for them that is.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Whereas, I think they almost got it right with their first RPG (still some problems there, but a terrific effort), and have generally moved in the wrong direction ever since.

I actually had a "I expect Sylvius..." part typed up and decided to just let you answer.   

Xewaka wrote...

I disagree. Vehemently. Then again, my situation as a player whose native language has had no dub in Bioware games since Jade Empire (or was it KotOR?), any benefit that could come from voice acting is utterly lost on me. And the restrictions that a voiced protagonist impose during character creation are not worth a voice.

That's fair.  But whether or not non-native English speakers benefit from the changes has no bearing whatsoever in my enjoyment of the game.  But you knew that.  That isn't to be hostile or dismissive, it just ultimately doesn't matter to me.  In the same way that it doesn't matter to you that at least Upsettingshorts on the Bioware Social Network is enjoying the voiceovers.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:22 .

[moilami]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

moilami wrote...

 But for more than one playthrough it begins to be not so good because you can't do so much experimental stuff.

I find the experimenting to be the fun part.  A lot of it is experimental roleplaying.

I usually play the gme once through just to learn the game's scope and discover the setting.  Then I start again and actually have fun with it.

But if that fun part isn't available, why even bother with the first one?

Um, how about because there is no choise xD

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
I disagree. Vehemently. Then again, my situation as a player whose native language has had no dub in Bioware
games since Jade Empire (or was it KotOR?), any benefit that could come from voice acting is utterly lost on me. And the restrictions that a voiced protagonist impose during character creation are not worth a voice.

That's fair.  But whether or not non-native English speakers benefit from the changes has no bearing whatsoever in my enjoyment of the game.  But you knew that.  That isn't to be hostile or dismissive, it just ultimately doesn't matter to me.  In the same way that it doesn't matter to you that at least Upsettingshorts on the Bioware Social Network is enjoying the voiceovers.

That's fair. But I believe that an informed argument should have all viewpoints available to all participants, so that people can check the background of those viewpoints and see if they have data to share that could cause the reconsideration of said viewpoints.

Modifié par Xewaka, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:23 .

[Thiefy]

i'm sure there will mods within a week of release that allow you to change companion clothing. mostly to being naked, if the trend is anything like DAO but it's not as if that is going to be always like that. just a pro to playing pc versus console I guess.



btw i ordered the 360 version myself so i'm not a pc fangirl

[Il Divo]

Whatever you like.  That's the beauty of it.

But I would say that this leads to a very hollow game experience however when what I 'imagine' does not correlate with how an npc responds. The only elements to which the npc ever responds are what our character is listed as having said, so how effective would it be to perceive it as an abstraction?

[Sharn01]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

maybe you're reading too much in it?

If I've made an unreasonable leap I would welcome someone pointing it out.

Before ME2 came out they kept telling us in the advertising that it was our Shepard and we controlled the decisions.  This didnt change the fact that when I actually played the game I couldnt do more then make minor complaints at being forced down a path the Shepard I played through ME with would never take.  It also didnt allow me to not attempt to **** myself out to Jacob in any conversation I had with him forcing me to just not talk to him at all to keep in character. 

Marketing is marketing and does not truly represent the game unfortunately.

[Snelle Jaap]

JohnEpler wrote...

I mean, we'd prefer that you didn't, but if you really want to, that's cool. We'll just, you know, be over here. Crying.

I can so see that happen over there.
also i can understand that, There's alot of work in it ..and in just one button SkiP! !
not that i do that...ever

[moilami]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

moilami wrote...

Haha, it is a real problem. Why still do it? Because I would hate also to not do it. See? Two choises and I hate both. It can happen. Guess then will I chose to make Morri learn something more useful than shapeshifting?

Now with these new rules I don't have that kind of sucky choise anymore.

No, now you're stuck with one alternative that you didn't like even when you got to choose it.

How is this better?

No, with this New BioWare I don't have any sucky choises in the first place. So it is better in one way. Is it ultimately better? That is left to be seen.

[Maria Caliban]

eyesofastorm wrote...


Key word... great.  Previous games were great in your words.  Now you are saying changes to a formula that was GREAT will be improvements before you've even had hands on.  How does that work?

I liked Dragon Age: Origins. I liked Mass Effect 2.

I started a thread asking for companion outfits in DA 2 to be like ME 2. I commented several times that I didn't like the artistic direction of DA:O.

In DA 2, they've given me ME 2 style outfits and changed the art direction. I know what one of these improvements will be like from another game and can plainly see the other.

That works fine for me.

[eyesofastorm]

Maria Caliban wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...


Key word... great.  Previous games were great in your words.  Now you are saying changes to a formula that was GREAT will be improvements before you've even had hands on.  How does that work?

I liked Dragon Age: Origins. I liked Mass Effect 2.

I started a thread asking for companion outfits in DA 2 to be like ME 2. I commented several times that I didn't like the artistic direction of DA:O.

In DA 2, they've given me ME 2 style outfits and changed the art direction. I know what one of these improvements will be like from another game and can plainly see the other.

That works fine for me.

I don't remember asking your opinion Maria!  

(All of the emoticons suck so you're just going to guess at my tone.)

Modifié par eyesofastorm, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:35 .

[upsettingshorts]

eyesofastorm wrote...

I don't remember asking your opinion Maria!

We said basically the same thing, anyway.  Though we didn't use the same specific examples.