1044 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...
Not making any value judgments here, but the type of game they want to make is parting ways with many of their old fans, so I don't think people should be surprised by this.

I don't think that describes the nature of the surprise accurately.

I think the surprise stems from the notion that players like Sylvius and I are just now - with Mass Effect and DA2 - discovering that each other exist. 

The changes are polarizing, but not necessarily in an "old fan/new fan" way - it's just exposing the different approaches players take to Bioware's games.

[eyesofastorm]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Not making any value judgments here, but the type of game they want to make is parting ways with many of their old fans, so I don't think people should be surprised by this.

I don't think that describes the nature of the surprise accurately.

I think the surprise stems from the notion that players like Sylvius and I are just now - with Mass Effect and DA2 - discovering that each other exist. 

The changes are polarizing, but not necessarily in an "old fan/new fan" way - it's just exposing the different approaches players take to Bioware's games.

Sylvius has been here for a REALLY long time.  Dude is as old and dedicated a Bioware fan as there is.  Take that how you will.

[upsettingshorts]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Sylvius has been here for a REALLY long time.  Dude is as old and dedicated a Bioware fan as there is.  Take that how you will.

That's not what I meant at all. 

I've been playing Bioware games as long as he has, though my presence on the forum is very recent.  We've kind of discussed what I mentioned in other threads before.

The changes to the Bioware model in their most recent outings are exposing rifts in player opinions that were always there, but unmentioned because no issues drew on them.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:20 .

[moilami]

eyesofastorm wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Fiery Dove wrote...
BG was and is awesome too. No rose-colored glasses here, just haven't played it since win7...somethings it doesn't like.

That's certainly a matter of opinion. I think it's just a game that shows you how much Bioware improved on their early flaws, even if you can get by the abhorent thing that is D&D.

Come on... that the BG's are some of the best (if not THE best) RPG's of all time is as close to universally accepted as anything gets in gaming.

Aye, when judging the quality of RPG there is one thing to test first. What happens if you attack NPCs? In BG plenty of things begun to happen. After that it is up to you can you even consider games where you can't attack NPCs or where nothing happens if you attack them as RPGs. I have to admit that since the current trend seems to be standard that you can't anymore attack NPCs much less face IC concequences of it, I have begun to accept that even those lackluster "RPGs" are RPGs.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think the surprise stems from the notion that players like Sylvius and I are just now - with Mass Effect and DA2 - discovering that each other exist. 

I've watched Sylvius argue for his preferred type of RPG for about seven years now.

That people was interested in VO'd PCs didn't matter to many before because BioWare never considered it for NWN, KotOR, or Jade Empire, and it was quickly shot down for DA:O.

[upsettingshorts]

It's not just voice though, it's the whole cRPGs as D&D ports versus cRPGs as interactive fiction thing. But it is just a theory of mine.

[moilami]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

This framed narrative they are talking about is nothing more than the ME system, you are just along for the ride, and the staggering choices you get to make are whether to be a nice guy, or an ass.

Mass Effect does not have a framed narrative.  

Night Prowler76 wrote...

I think I will grab the Witcher 2 instead

I haven't followed TW2's development, but The Witcher had a framed narrative. 

Rofl I don't even know what "framed narrative" means. Is it some kind of marketing term like "120Hz" monitor or "24 valve"?

[slimgrin]

If it's any consolation, I have no doubt other rpg developers will continue to offer the type of player choice and customization he's looking for. Whether it's Dues Ex showing full text with the paraphrase, Skyrim having full body customization, or TW2 implementing social skills ala Mass Effect.

You're just gonna have to get used to fast twitch gameplay to enjoy any of that, Sylvius.

Modifié par slimgrin, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:25 .

[DPB]

moilami wrote...

I don't even know what "framed narrative" means. Is it some kind of marketing term like "120Hz" monitor or "24 valve"?

It's a method of telling a story. See here.

[Maria Caliban]

moilami wrote...

Rofl I don't even know what "framed narrative" means. Is it some kind of marketing term like "120Hz" monitor or "24 valve"?

It's a literary term for a story that told within another story.

The Canterbury Tales, for example, is a story about a group of pilgrim who entertain themselves by telling one another stories. Alpha Protocol is a story framed by the main character being interrogated.

[eyesofastorm]

I propose changing the name of this thread to "Whose game is it anyway?" then it would be sort of a play on that show "Whose Line is it Anyway" and also on a terrible, terrible lifetime movie I remember my Mom watching when I was a kid called "Whose Life is it Anyway". Anyway... yeah.

[upsettingshorts]

moilami wrote...

Rofl I don't even know what "framed narrative" means. Is it some kind of marketing term like "120Hz" monitor or "24 valve"?

My use of it wasn't strictly correct either.

A framed narrative is a story within a story.  DA2 does this by having one story (Cassandra interrogating Varric) give us Hawke's story (what we control).  An example of this in fiction is the film The Princess Bride.  Alpha Protocol, as Maria mentioned, also did this.

I was treating it as Acts and Chapters, and while The Witcher and DA2 both have those - and DAO and Mass Effect do not - which isn't necessarily part of it.  But both sort of work together.

But it definitely isn't something taken from Mass Effect.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:29 .

[Thiefy]

moilami wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

i'm sure there will mods within a week of release that allow you to change companion clothing. mostly to being naked, if the trend is anything like DAO but it's not as if that is going to be always like that. just a pro to playing pc versus console I guess.

btw i ordered the 360 version myself so i'm not a pc fangirl

Great! You don't believe me but I was about to write a reply where I voice my concerns regarding can I undress chicks in DA2.

I will have to think if I have to promise I will nerdrage in these forums the day I get DA2 if it is not possible to undress chicks on it.

two dollars says the men get undressed before the females (as far as naked mods go)

[In Exile]

eyesofastorm wrote...
Come on... that the BG's are some of the best (if not THE best) RPG's of all time is as close to universally accepted as anything gets in gaming.

And yet I continue to dissent. I don't like D&D at all, so I won't judge the game re: gameplay. But in terms of story and characters, all I see in BGII are things Bioware did better in future games.

moilami wrote...
Aye, when judging the quality of RPG there is
one thing to test first. What happens if you attack NPCs? In BG plenty
of things begun to happen. After that it is up to you can you even
consider games where you can't attack NPCs or where nothing happens if
you attack them as RPGs. I have to admit that since the current trend
seems to be standard that you can't anymore attack NPCs much less face
IC concequences of it, I have begun to accept that even those lackluster
"RPGs" are RPGs.

See? The above is a great example.

I happen to think how BG/BGII handled this was terrible, and a feature that deserved to be cut, since there were effectively no consequences for you doing so. Reputation hits, some guards chasing you... and plot critical NPCs replaced.

Modifié par In Exile, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:34 .

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's not just voice though, it's the whole cRPGs as D&D ports versus cRPGs as interactive fiction thing. But it is just a theory of mine.

Yeah.

I've had this very argument with Sylvus for years. Virgil (in Exile) used to argue for pages and pages about issues like this. (I used to yell at them)

Nothing posted to this thread is something Sylvius hasn't read many, many times before.

There are new posters who have never read opinions so different from their own, but most older ones simply had the pleasure of ignoring other viewpoints until now because BioWare favored their preferred method of RPG.

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I've had this very argument with Sylvus for years. Virgil (in Exile) used to argue for pages and pages about issues like this. (I used to yell at them)
 

Ah, the joys of being a bored undergraduate...

One of these days I'll join the real world, and you'll miss all of my wonderful contributions to your life.

[Cuthlan]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are people on this forum, myself included, who view every change they've made as improvements to what made previous Bioware games great.

Whereas, I think they almost got it right with their first RPG (still some problems there, but a terrific effort), and have generally moved in the wrong direction ever since.

I was right there at the start, too... but I disagree with you. BG is still my favorite in terms of story, but my tastes for gameplay styles have changed over the years.

Fortunately, they have moved the same direction Bioware has been moving lately.

[eyesofastorm]

In Exile wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I've had this very argument with Sylvus for years. Virgil (in Exile) used to argue for pages and pages about issues like this. (I used to yell at them)
 

Ah, the joys of being a bored undergraduate...

One of these days I'll join the real world, and you'll miss all of my wonderful contributions to your life.

Pfft... I've been working for a living for the entirety of the time I've been a member of the Bioboards.  If you can't work and hang around this joint, you're doing something wrong.  You can tell your future boss I said so.

[In Exile]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Pfft... I've been working for a living for the entirety of the time I've been a member of the Bioboards.  If you can't work and hang around this joint, you're doing something wrong.  You can tell your future boss I said so.

When my boss opens with "You were doing what on company time?" I'm showing him this post.

[moilami]

dbankier wrote...

moilami wrote...

I don't even know what "framed narrative" means. Is it some kind of marketing term like "120Hz" monitor or "24 valve"?

It's a method of telling a story. See here.

Ok thanks Dbankier, Maria, and Upsettingshorts. So Jackie Brown uses frame story telling, if I remember correctly? Or maybe it just used nonchronological telling? Been over ten years when I saw it. No matter, was a great movie! Maybe should have to watch it again and see in the same time which it uses.


Edit: Jackie Brown, not Charlie Brown fix.

Modifié par moilami, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:01 .

[eyesofastorm]

In Exile wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Pfft... I've been working for a living for the entirety of the time I've been a member of the Bioboards.  If you can't work and hang around this joint, you're doing something wrong.  You can tell your future boss I said so.

When my boss opens with "You were doing what on company time?" I'm showing him this post.

It'll work like a charm.  Trust me.

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's not just voice though, it's the whole cRPGs as D&D ports versus cRPGs as interactive fiction thing. But it is just a theory of mine.

Hmm. So Bioware does interactive fiction? Or modern Crpg's in general? If it's the former, I would agree with you. Interactive fiction is their focus.

[moilami]

Maria Caliban wrote...



I've had this very argument with Sylvus for years. Virgil (in Exile) used to argue for pages and pages about issues like this. (I used to yell at them)

Darn, I have missed then a lot of fun xD

[Saibh]

eyesofastorm wrote...

In Exile wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Pfft... I've been working for a living for the entirety of the time I've been a member of the Bioboards.  If you can't work and hang around this joint, you're doing something wrong.  You can tell your future boss I said so.

When my boss opens with "You were doing what on company time?" I'm showing him this post.

It'll work like a charm.  Trust me.

I can see how it might go:

"No, boss, this guy, he said it was cool."

"A man on the internet directed you to ignore your job?"

"Yeah."

"That's ludicrous! I ought to fire you!"

"But look at the jaw on his avatar! So manly! How can you deny that?"

"...It's quite square, that's true."

I mean, I don't see how else this conversation would go. The trick is to never change your avatar.

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...


Hmm. So Bioware does interactive fiction? Or modern Crpg's in general? If it's the former, I would agree with you. Interactive fiction is their focus.

Not all cRPGs, but also not just Bioware.  I think getting in to which games I'd put into which category would wildly derail the thread, so I'll leave it at that.