1044 réponses à ce sujet

[Davasar]

slimgrin wrote...

Not making any value judgments here, but the type of game they want to make is parting ways with many of their old fans, so I don't think people should be surprised by this.

And the evidence for this is in the posts where the Devs politely told the old fans to F*ck off.

Polite, yes.

But telling people to F*ck off is still telling people to F*ck off.

[eyesofastorm]

Saibh wrote...

The trick is to never change your avatar.

Worry not... I am nothing if not constant.

[upsettingshorts]

Davasar wrote...

And the evidence for this is in the posts where the Devs politely told the old fans to F*ck off.

Polite, yes.

But telling people to F*ck off is still telling people to F*ck off.

That's tough to do considering I don't believe Bioware believes that "old fans" are the only ones who dislike the direction their game is taking and that "new fans" are the only ones who like it.

The divide lies elsewhere, and that was my general point.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:51 .

[Davasar]

Well, when a thread is made stating the position of what their long time fans enjoyed, and also stating that taking those features away was in direct conflict to what they like; then the Devs respond with a polite F*ck off...



one is left to draw the conclusion the Devs wanted them to have.



"We aren't making games for you anymore, so F*ck off"



In a nutshell that's what was said. So yeah, the old fans have a point there.

[moilami]

In Exile wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...
Come on... that the BG's are some of the best (if not THE best) RPG's of all time is as close to universally accepted as anything gets in gaming.

And yet I continue to dissent. I don't like D&D at all, so I won't judge the game re: gameplay. But in terms of story and characters, all I see in BGII are things Bioware did better in future games.

moilami wrote...
Aye, when judging the quality of RPG there is
one thing to test first. What happens if you attack NPCs? In BG plenty
of things begun to happen. After that it is up to you can you even
consider games where you can't attack NPCs or where nothing happens if
you attack them as RPGs. I have to admit that since the current trend
seems to be standard that you can't anymore attack NPCs much less face
IC concequences of it, I have begun to accept that even those lackluster
"RPGs" are RPGs.

See? The above is a great example.

I happen to think how BG/BGII handled this was terrible, and a feature that deserved to be cut, since there were effectively no consequences for you doing so. Reputation hits, some guards chasing you... and plot critical NPCs replaced.

Minor concequences are better than no concequences at all. In DA if I try to stab a guard I would at minimum expect all nearby guards attacking me. In BG I could kill a guard in Candlekeep and steal his armour before sneaking to the night with Gorion. I prepared! As Gorion asked me to do *innocent smile* I could tell plenty of other stories too but I don't bore you. I just say immortal NPCs are not immersive and DA would be so much more fun if you could get the whole city to agro on you. Or half agro half flee.


P.S. And it is not minor concequence if you get Flaming Fist death squad after you.

[upsettingshorts]

Davasar wrote...

Well, when a thread is made stating the position of what their long time fans enjoyed, and also stating that taking those features away was in direct conflict to what they like; then the Devs respond with a polite F*ck off...

Which thread?  Surely you aren't talking about this one?

Davasar wrote...

In a nutshell that's what was said. So yeah, the old fans have a point there.

I'll spell it out for you:  I'm an old fan.  There are old fans out there who like the changes.  People claiming to speak for "the old fans" are trying to assert authority to speak on the behalf of people they do not know to strengthen their own opinion.  This is irritating.  Just say, "I do not like X and Y because of A and B."  The people that do that don't tend to get snarked at... as much.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:59 .

[Stanley Woo]

I would like to remind folks that swearing is not permitted in our forum, so please cut it out. Thank you.

[DPB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are old fans out there who like the changes.  People claiming to speak for "the old fans" are trying to assert authority to speak on the behalf of people they do not know to strengthen their own opinion.  This is irritating.  Just say, "I do not like X and Y because of A and B."  The people that do that don't tend to get snarked at... as much.

I'm another (the only Bioware PC game since BG1 I haven't bought was MDK2) and I too find it irritating when self-appointed spokespersons lump me into a group in which I do not belong.

[Cuthlan]

Davasar wrote...

Well, when a thread is made stating the position of what their long time fans enjoyed, and also stating that taking those features away was in direct conflict to what they like; then the Devs respond with a polite F*ck off...

one is left to draw the conclusion the Devs wanted them to have.

"We aren't making games for you anymore, so F*ck off"

In a nutshell that's what was said. So yeah, the old fans have a point there.

You're being awfully presumptuous... both in claiming that all long time fans share the same position (which they don't) and in putting words into Bioware's mouths.

[In Exile]

moilami wrote...
Minor concequences are better than no concequences at all.

Not at all. I believe a feature either has to be done right or cut entirely. In this case, you can't have a game realistically react to potential criminal acts unless it's built around it.

In DA if I try to stab a guard I would at minimum expect all nearby guards attacking me.

You can't attack guards in DA:O.

I just say immortal NPCs are not immersive and DA would be so much more fun if you could get the whole city to agro on you. Or half agro half flee.

No, it would be Oblivion.  And that isn't a very good game. But let's agree to disagree.

[AndarianTD]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's not just voice though, it's the whole cRPGs as D&D ports versus cRPGs as interactive fiction thing. But it is just a theory of mine.

Agreed, and this is something I've been talking about for some time. My focus is on "games" as interactive fiction, so I approve of the direction Bioware's been going on this.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'll spell it out for you:  I'm an old fan.  There are old fans out there who like the changes.  People claiming to speak for "the old fans" are trying to assert authority to speak on the behalf of people they do not know to strengthen their own opinion.  This is irritating.  Just say, "I do not like X and Y because of A and B."  The people that do that don't tend to get snarked at... as much.

What he said.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:59 .

[moilami]

In Exile wrote...

moilami wrote...
Minor concequences are better than no concequences at all.

Not at all. I believe a feature either has to be done right or cut entirely. In this case, you can't have a game realistically react to potential criminal acts unless it's built around it.

In DA if I try to stab a guard I would at minimum expect all nearby guards attacking me.

You can't attack guards in DA:O.

I just say immortal NPCs are not immersive and DA would be so much more fun if you could get the whole city to agro on you. Or half agro half flee.

No, it would be Oblivion.  And that isn't a very good game. But let's agree to disagree.

cRPGs put some limitations on what can be done with reasonable time. Therefore minor concequences are better than no concequences.

And I can agree to disagree no problems, it was obvious right away we just like different things.

Anyway thank you very much of what you said about Oblivion. Now I know what game I buy after ME, ME2, and DA2 playthroughs. The Elder Scrolls: Arena

Modifié par moilami, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:02 .

[Sharn01]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Well, when a thread is made stating the position of what their long time fans enjoyed, and also stating that taking those features away was in direct conflict to what they like; then the Devs respond with a polite F*ck off...

Which thread?  Surely you aren't talking about this one?

Davasar wrote...

In a nutshell that's what was said. So yeah, the old fans have a point there.

I'll spell it out for you:  I'm an old fan.  There are old fans out there who like the changes.  People claiming to speak for "the old fans" are trying to assert authority to speak on the behalf of people they do not know to strengthen their own opinion.  This is irritating.  Just say, "I do not like X and Y because of A and B."  The people that do that don't tend to get snarked at... as much.

This isnt really true, I am not accusing you personally of such, but there are a lot of people who will attack anyone who is disatisfied with the direction of the game.  If those people are willing to stand firm and still argue their position with flexibility, they tend to eventually garner some respect and get into legitimate debates, but the initial responce is usually attacks from many.  Even after time has passed some still attack them, though most are people who are just trying to pick a fight and dont really care about debating to begin with.

It goes without saying though that there are groups on both sides who are equally agressive with people they disagree with.

Modifié par Sharn01, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

I find the angry, dismissive responses are not exclusive to either the pro-direction or anti-direction crowd. Both sides claim the other started it, but I really don't believe any of them.

[Sharn01]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I find the angry, dismissive responses are not exclusive to either the pro-direction or anti-direction crowd. Both sides claim the other started it, but I really don't believe any of them.

Heh, I agree completely, you posted before my edit, there is no one side that is without fault when its just blatant name calling and inflexible arguments.  But to say that people who are intelligent and sincere in their arguments will recieve respect on the forum is a fallacy.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Let us say you always ate meat, but in the past you had only chicken, You've never had a reason to dislike chicken, and many people happen to like it a lot. Then, it just so happens one time you are served veal, instead. Your first time having it, in fact. You realize you like veal a lot more than you like chicken. So you now want veal instead of chicken.

The idea here is that you can like something, but not realize you like something else more until you try it. I always was OK with silent VO... until I had PC VO in an RPG. And then I realized I liked it a lot more than silent VO.

But you did like the silent PC games, right?  You just said so.

I also liked the silent PC games.

But I strongly dislike (so far) the voiced PC games.  So this change has, apparently augmented your enjoyment (though you did already enjoy the games), while it has destroyed my enjoyment.

That seems to me a net negative change in utility.

AndarianTD wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DA2's design appears to be aimed at causing the players to experience the game as the designers would like it to be experienced...

Excellent, if true.

No, there's no upside there.  You could already enjoy DAO in this way.  The changes to companion customisation have added exactly zero features.  The only way you can be happy about this is if you're seeking suffering in others.

If malice is a feature you enjoy, that's good for you, but that's the only way I can see this actually making the game better for anyone.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dragon Age Origins was released a decade after the cRPG Sylvius cites as Bioware's best.  And no-one here is saying Origins sucked.

To be honest, it hasn't been a constant downward spiral.  While I maintain that BG was their best game, DAO is probably top 3.

FieryDove wrote...

BG was and is awesome too. No rose-colored glasses here, just haven't played it since win7...somethings it doesn't like.

You have to enable DirectDraw.  Youhad to do the same under Vista.

slimgrin wrote...

Sounds like Sylvius is only concerned about Bioware nerfing player choice, and to a degree they have. They did it for ME2, and now for DA2. Not making any value judgments here, but the type of game they want to make is parting ways with many of their old fans, so I don't think people should be surprised by this.

I'm not surprised.  I really just started the thread to point out that some of the dev remarks appear to be at odds with each other.

I don't think I'm ever going to let doublespeak - even unintentional doublespeak - pass without comment.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:08 .

[In Exile]

Sharn01 wrote..
Heh, I agree completely, you posted before my edit, there is no one side that is without fault when its just blatant name calling and inflexible arguments.  But to say that people who are intelligent and sincere in their arguments will recieve respect on the forum is a fallacy.

I happen to disagree. The problem is that a lot of people bring their implicit assumptions to bear. Either what an RPG ought to be, or idiosyncratic meanings... 

In those cases, you might get some big debates on either side, but you won't have open hostility.

The problem is that we rarely get good criticism of DA2.

[upsettingshorts]

From the developers themselves? Depends. That's why I went with "as much." It wasn't an unqualified statement. Just wanted to say that claiming to represent some particular group then accusing Bioware of dissing them or abandoning their roots probably isn't going to result in a positive response.

In Exile wrote...

The problem is that we rarely get good criticism of DA2.

I think Bioware's implicit position on this issue is that good criticism of DA2 will be impossible - or at least, not useful - without playing it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:09 .

[panamakira]

ViSeirA wrote...

I always asked myself a question that nearly drove me mad... Why can't the coffee maker make cookies?

LOL indeed.

I think although devs tell us "it's our game", c'mon now~ We have as much freedom as they let us. We have many choices to make and that's where we feel we have freedom in the game and make it our own but we're still playing within the framework of what BW is giving us. 

[Merced652]

They don't get respect, they still get trashed on by the same crew every time a thread, nay post is made that is offering any sort of substantial critique. This thread is pretty blatant evidence of that.

[moilami]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I find the angry, dismissive responses are not exclusive to either the pro-direction or anti-direction crowd. Both sides claim the other started it, but I really don't believe any of them.

There is Third Faction too. I belong on it.

[eyesofastorm]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think I'm ever going to let doublespeak - even unintentional doublespeak - pass without comment.

Really?  How have you not gone insane in this modern world?... ... ... ... Oh.

[upsettingshorts]

moilami wrote...

There is Third Faction too. I belong on it.

You must have missed my posts where I explicitly describe four relativley distinct factions and mention a vague, hard to define fifth.

[eyesofastorm]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

moilami wrote...

There is Third Faction too. I belong on it.

You must have missed my posts where I explicitly describe four relativley distinct factions and mention a vague, hard to define fifth.

When do you defend your thesis?

[Jimmy Fury]

Davasar wrote...

Well, when a thread is made stating the position of what their long time fans enjoyed, and also stating that taking those features away was in direct conflict to what they like; then the Devs respond with a polite ____ off...

Not an entirely fair assessment though. It neglects the fact that this is nowhere near the first thread like this started by the same "long time fan."
As much as I may respect Sylvius's debate skills, this dance has been danced many times before.

There comes a time when people get tired of defending themselves against the same accusation and resort to very basic responses... Unfortunately in this case it only fueled  the victim mentality of those who seem to think Bioware is out to get them personally... <_<

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 18 janvier 2011 - 04:19 .