1044 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

aries1001 wrote...

As for the ending in DA2, we know that Hawkw will always end up being 'the champion of Kirkwall.' How he got there, his part to glory, is up to us, as the players to decide.

Do we actually know that's the end?  We know that happens, but is that the end?

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 janvier 2011 - 07:25 .

[Cuthlan]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

aries1001 wrote...

As for the ending in DA2, we know that Hawkw will always end up being 'the champion of Kirkwall.' How he got there, his part to glory, is up to us, as the players to decide.

Do we actually know that's the end?  We know that happens, but is that the end?

I don't think we know that with absolute certainty.

My impression is that DA2 is sort of a prequel of sorts... setting the stage for the adventures of the Champion, explaining who Hawke is and how he became the Champion before we set off into the world in DA3 as Hawke.

But I could be way off.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Sure, and one could argue that they are trying to go that route with the mixed "strategic and action oriented" combat.

That is a terrific example, and that one even required a lot of development work on BioWare's part.  They had to design combat that works using both control schemes.

I'm asking for something quite a bit smaller than that, from a design standpoint.

the_one_54321 wrote...

People play the game and then talk about their experiences. When they talk about them, the developer would like them say certain spcific things.

I would expect them to want players to say positive things.

Consumers aren't that bright.  They respond to positivity and enthusiasm more than content.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 janvier 2011 - 07:31 .

[Sutamina]

  Beerfish wrote...

    To force her to use a bow when she is a duelist and that is where all her training is is to portray her as a mindless moron who should grow up.

Sylvius the Mad
I'm saying we should be allowed to give her relevant training.  She is, after all, a Rogue.  And the game's rules require that Rogue's have access to bow talents.

If she can't learn bow talents, then either she's not a Rogue, or the setting is broken.

Odd that there is only two possibilities and not some other reason.

[moilami]

Ryzaki wrote...

moilami wrote...
I find it much easier to RP Shepard too (only on the second mission now but Shepard is very happy and waiting patiently when I have time to play). The Warden always felt like some kind of Jesus. Sucked very much too to have to chose between Leliana and Morrigan! I wanted both.

Wow. And Shepad totally isn't anything like Jesus. It's not like he came back from the dead, headed to afterlife to pick up a dude named archangel and picked up a total of 12 followers.



And really play a paragon Shepard. Space Jesus is an apt description.

Jesus got plenty of repu before "afterlife". And Warden did maybe not have 12 followers, but only 7?

[Nighteye2]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...
People are mainly argueing the difference between a good game and a great game. They want the game to be great, but are afraid some of the changes will downgrade the experience to merely good.

If some of these ideas are taken too far, the game can go quite a bit below "good".

I'd place Mass Effect no higher than "fair".

Yes, but Mass Effect is a whole different game. It deviates more from the good old Bioware games than DA2 will, from the looks of it.

Which, of course, doesn't make it right. We both want Bioware to make great games - like we used to expect.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

hey...go ahead! It's your game, after all.

The above quote is taken from the family resemblance thread.

Now, I love that Mike's saying that it's our game, and we can do with it what we will.  But much of DA2's design seems directly in conflict with this sentiment.

David Gaider says he's excited that the players can't change Isabela's garment to something less Isabela-like.  Why?  It's our game, right?  Why can't we do what we like?

One of the supposed benefits of the paraphrase system is that it prevents people from skipping dialogue.  As David said:

David Gaider wrote...

we want people to hear the lines and the VO.

But why do you care?  Again, isn't it "our game", after all?

DA2's design appears to be aimed at causing the players to experience the game as the designers would like it to be experienced, as yet whenever we learn of a feature that allows us greater freedom than that it is explained as Mike did above.  "Go ahead! It's your game, after all. 

These positions appear to be in conflict.

::Crickets::

... I certainly hope it wont be your game...

[moilami]

obsessedwjpn wrote...

moilami wrote...

How can some then whine Morri doesn't have enough clothes?

Because people have opinions? I personally find nothing wrong with Morrigan or any Bioware female's clothes.

If people can have negative whiny opinions on Morri's robe then why Mad can't have opinions on reduced customisation possibilities on companions without being called to make his own game?

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That is a terrific example, and that one even required a lot of development work on BioWare's part.  They had to design combat that works using both control schemes.

I'm asking for something quite a bit smaller than that, from a design standpoint.

It's not smaller at all when you consider how it effects the story they want to present. The story is variable in some ways, but in lots of ways it is a heavy limiter on free interpretation. And the story is a huge part of what they want you to specifically experience in the game.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Consumers aren't that bright.  They respond to positivity and enthusiasm more than content.

Oh, man I agree with that so hard.

But there is still the image that the devs are trying to sell with the game. And if they want to sell the image they can't include "but you don't have to play this way." That's kind of contradictory to how they are handling combat mechanics, but in the combat mechanics the image they are trying to sell is "action or tactics, at your convenience."

[AlanC9]

aries1001 wrote...

As for the ending in DA2, we know that Hawkw will always end up being 'the champion of Kirkwall.' How he got there, his part to glory, is up to us, as the players to decide.

Let's just assume you're right that the game ends there. Without knowing what being the Champion of Kirkwall means, there's no reason to assume that it means only one thing.

[moilami]

moilami wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

moilami wrote...
I find it much easier to RP Shepard too (only on the second mission now but Shepard is very happy and waiting patiently when I have time to play). The Warden always felt like some kind of Jesus. Sucked very much too to have to chose between Leliana and Morrigan! I wanted both.

Wow. And Shepad totally isn't anything like Jesus. It's not like he came back from the dead, headed to afterlife to pick up a dude named archangel and picked up a total of 12 followers.



And really play a paragon Shepard. Space Jesus is an apt description.

Jesus got plenty of repu before "afterlife". And Warden did maybe not have 12 followers, but only 7?

Hahahahahaha!! I totally did not clocked that coming back to life what the Warden did after tower of Ostagar untill now.

And you ask why Warden felt like some kind of Jesus xD

[moilami]

Addai67 wrote...

moilami wrote...
I find it much easier to RP Shepard too (only on the second mission now but Shepard is very happy and waiting patiently when I have time to play). The Warden always felt like some kind of Jesus. Sucked very much too to have to chose between Leliana and Morrigan! I wanted both.

*scratches head*  You'll have to choose between Liara and Ashley, too.  Obviously I'm missing your point?  Or have you just not got that far?

Um, I haven't got that far. And please don't tell anything anymore. I was totally unaware of that and very happy I can seduce Ashley and there is no other woman to divide my attention and make me do hard choises.

(I don't blame you though what you did. You did not know that you were doing

[Ensgnblack]

The only drawback to me personally is the lack of ability to run an all (insert spec here) party. Like take Varric and make him DW daggers for an all melee rogue party, or something. This is amusing on subsequent playthroughs and wont affect much for me other than replay.

[moilami]

Beerfish wrote...

moilami wrote...

shantisands wrote...

We can't force Isabella to pick up a bow, and frankly she may indeed gut you if you may try to impose your will on her in that way.  As she should of course.  

Professionals would use themselves the best tools to get the job done. To say Isaballa wont touch a bow is to portray her as a moron who should grow up.

To force her to use a bow when she is a duelist and that is where all her training is is to portray her as a mindless moron who should grow up.

You did not get it. Mature and reasonable person would not have to be "forced" to use a bow when the situation would call that bow would be the best tool to get the job done.

To say Isabella can only use daggers because that is what she has specialized is to say Isabella is moron or the rules just plain suck.

And it is all the same for me what kind of game Bioware makes. I most probably will play it through, enjoy of it, and have a lot of thought processes of very varied things as Bioware games make me inspired. Those thoughts will include lolling at the game too, and it doesn't make a me bit bad person.

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ideally, sure, but they can't build that much content that people won't see.

It's a limitation of the medium.

But that's my exact point. Alistair, Morrigan, etc. You (the player) are not acting in their stead. The limitation of the medium ensures that the game is almost always told from the perspective of that character you create, hence looking at companions as 'yours' is a fallacy. If the game was always told from Morrigan's perspective, and we were allowed to choose Morrigan's class/dialogue/name, then sensibly she is our character. But on what basis you are saying that you are 'acting' in place of all the characters equally?

That's why what Bioware is doing with Isabella makes more sense from a logistical standpoint. In normal dnd, you have control over your pc and no other. Bioware taking Isabella and giving her a more defined personality (through her looks and weapon choice) continuously adds to the fact that she is a separate person from you .

But within the game, that's not true.  Within the game she's a person, and if you think that she's a stronger character within the game if you (the player) don't change her, then don't change her.  If you want to experiment with something else, or change her design such that you think it works better (by whatever criteria you deem relevant), then I see no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to do so.

Not having the option to change the default doesn't change what the default is, or what it's like in the game, or even its effect on the other characters within the game.  And it doesn't change that, from the player's point of view, she is, ultimately, a toy.

I disagree with this mentality, mainly due to my experiences with Kotor. I personally loved all the starter outfits which your companions wore (Except maybe Carth's). When I tried giving them actual armor, the effect was very strange, as if the game wasn't designed for how they looked in these outfits. However, the starter outfits I loved so much didn't have any stats on them so I either had to gimp my party members or make them ugly (I chose the former option). By Bioware more narrowly defining how these characters function, their equipment has more of a relation to their personalities.

[EmperorSahlertz]

moilami wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

moilami wrote...

shantisands wrote...

We can't force Isabella to pick up a bow, and frankly she may indeed gut you if you may try to impose your will on her in that way.  As she should of course.  

Professionals would use themselves the best tools to get the job done. To say Isaballa wont touch a bow is to portray her as a moron who should grow up.

To force her to use a bow when she is a duelist and that is where all her training is is to portray her as a mindless moron who should grow up.

You did not get it. Mature and reasonable person would not have to be "forced" to use a bow when the situation would call that bow would be the best tool to get the job done.

To say Isabella can only use daggers because that is what she has specialized is to say Isabella is moron or the rules just plain suck.

And it is all the same for me what kind of game Bioware makes. I most probably will play it through, enjoy of it, and have a lot of thought processes of very varied things as Bioware games make me inspired. Those thoughts will include lolling at the game too, and it doesn't make a me bit bad person.

Isabela has trained all her life to become a duelist, and now you come along and want her to be a master marksman. You see the dilemma?

[Blastback]

No one to my knowledge is advocating that Isabella be a master marksman, just that she at least be able to pick up a bow and shoot it.



Besides, just because she is a master duelist doesn't mean that she would never take up training in other areas of combat. Duelist is her specialty, that doesn't automatically have to mean it's the only thing she can do.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Il Divo wrote...

But that's my exact point. Alistair, Morrigan, etc. You (the player) are not acting in their stead. The limitation of the medium ensures that the game is almost always told from the perspective of that character you create, hence looking at companions as 'yours' is a fallacy.

No, the medium requires that the game follow a character who is present.  Chosing one in particular is only necessary when the characters are not together.

Let's not read into that choice more than necessary.

In normal dnd, you have control over your pc and no other.

And in DA2, I have quite a bit of control over Isabela, thus defeating your point. 

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isabela has trained all her life to become a duelist, and now you come along and want her to be a master marksman. You see the dilemma?

The dilemma he's describing is where the enemy is at range and closing with them would be a poor tactical choice.  Isabela's options then are to use a bow, or be useless.

Apparently she'd rather be useless.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Blastback wrote...

No one to my knowledge is advocating that Isabella be a master marksman, just that she at least be able to pick up a bow and shoot it.

Besides, just because she is a master duelist doesn't mean that she would never take up training in other areas of combat. Duelist is her specialty, that doesn't automatically have to mean it's the only thing she can do.

Nothing about the duelist specialty requires that anyone use only daggers, or daggers at all.

You could take the duelist specialty and max it out in DA2 without ever picking up a dagger or any other melee weapon.

[EmperorSahlertz]

But why would she ever pick up a bow when she can achieve her task easier with a pair of knives? Obviousy she isn't very good at shooting a bow, so why are you giving one to her in the first place? If you want an archer you bring the archer party member.



What BioWare is doing is reducing customization, yes. But it is defining the characters far better.

[bsbcaer]

Sylvius the mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isabela has trained all her life to become a duelist, and now you come along and want her to be a master marksman. You see the dilemma?

The dilemma he's describing is where the enemy is at range and closing with them would be a poor tactical choice.  Isabela's options then are to use a bow, or be useless.

Apparently she'd rather be useless.

Ok, so how about this as a compromise.  You would have no problem with it if they had designed it so that there was an option to spend a single point in archery, but have absolutely no other talents in archery other than point and shoot (no upgrades beyond the initial ability to use the bow)?

Modifié par bsbcaer, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:37 .

[AlanC9]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isabela has trained all her life to become a duelist, and now you come along and want her to be a master marksman. You see the dilemma?

Well, that shows a problem with the way game mechanics map onto the background. We get Izzy pretty early -- IIRC there's a screenshot of her at level 3. But according to the lore she's not a low-level character then.

It's related to the ME1 issue where a (non-NG+) Shepard is a lousy shot at the beginning of the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

bsbcaer wrote...

Ok, so how about this as a compromise.  You would have no problem with it if they had designed it so that there was an option to spend a single point in archery, but have absolutely no other talents in archery other than point and shoot (no upgrades beyond the initial ability to use the bow)?

If she can't learn the bow like other characters can learn the bow, there needs to be some mechanical reason why.  I know why Warriors can't learn the bow, because in DA2 warriors can't learn bows.  It's arbitrary, but it's consistently applied.

Isabela's a Rogue.  Rogues can learn bows.  But not Isabela.  Why?  What prevents her from learning to use a bow?  If it's just personal preference, then why do I (the player) get to assign her talent points at all?  Shouldn't she learn a fixed progression every time, given that her personality drives that development?

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

No, the medium requires that the game follow a character who is present.  Chosing one in particular is only necessary when the characters are not together.

Let's not read into that choice more than necessary.

That's ridiculous. It's the equivalent of suggesting in a novel or film that every character the protagonist encounters is also main character, even when they're off-screen. 

That's the problem with your statement. The game does not just arbitrarily decide on a random perspective to tell the story from. The developers did not let you play out your origin on a mere whim, but because that specifically is your origin. Notice that the one consistent element in Dragon Age is that your character must be present at all times for all interactions. When attempting a romance, I cannot arbitrarily choose to have Morrigan fall in love with the PC, but must woo her to that end.

And in DA2, I have quite a bit of control over Isabela, thus defeating your point. 

Which is why the more control Bioware takes from you, the more sensible it becomes. You are not the other characters. With Bioware granting you less and less control, that point is emphasized even more. The only reason why they have ever given us control over these characters in DA:O has been as a gameplay mechanic.

Modifié par Il Divo, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:39 .

[TheCreeper]

Why would she need to pick a bow anyways? In what situation would you need her to use a bow when you got two other companions that Use a Crossbow and bow?