1044 réponses à ce sujet

[Blastback]

Melness wrote...

Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat. If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

If you're the leader, you'll tell the engineer to do this deal and the soldier to fight. Not try to 'shape' them by swapping their roles.

Same thing with a gal who knows and prefers to fight in melee and potentially doesn't know a thing of archery - which takes years to master.

And if the engineer is dead, and you need someone to do their job, then what?

 
And Sahletz, the story thing was mostly unrelated to the Isabela using a bow argument.  but where has it ever been stated that in the story, She is unable to use a bow?  For all we know, her charater may very well be capable of using one and just doesn't like to.

Modifié par Blastback, 18 janvier 2011 - 09:56 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blastback wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Defining the character as someone who is willing and able to do more than just flip around with daggers?  It alows me to decide just what role in the group and therefore story, Isabela has, aside from her charater interactions.

It's also a gameplay issue.  I like being able to have charatcters with more than just one function or skillset.  My first warden was a warrior who both duel wielded and used a sword and shield.  He was never as good as Alistar at tanking, or Sten at DPS, but he could fill whatever role I needed filled at the moment.  Most of my companions in BG2 were multi/dual class. 

  But she isn't your character, so why should you be able to decide what she can do? 

Cause it's fun!

It's less about defining her, than her role in the group.  Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat.  If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

I'm just gonna stop you there and say, no you most certainly do not. If you are the squads machine gunenr then that is your role, up until the guy with teh grenade launcher dies, and you are the most capable person of its use left.

A Squad leader would never ask his machine gunner to snipe either for instance (at least not if the squad leader got a brain). While the Machine Gunner may be able to handle the weapon, and on the odd chance actually score a kill, it is the Marksman who is supposed to use such a weapon, and he is the guy the Squad Leader will task with sniping (again up until the point that all otehr snipers are dead and the machine gunner is the only one left).

[the_one_54321]

Blastback wrote...
If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

No, what you do is get your butt transfered to a new unit where the commander isn't a raving idiot.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat. If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

If you're the leader, you'll tell the engineer to do this deal and the soldier to fight. Not try to 'shape' them by swapping their roles.

Same thing with a gal who knows and prefers to fight in melee and potentially doesn't know a thing of archery - which takes years to master.

And if the engineer is dead, and you need someone to do their job, then what?

Then you would most likely fall back, since you've failed the mission, or sustained heavy loses making you incapable of completing your mission.

[Melness]

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat. If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

If you're the leader, you'll tell the engineer to do this deal and the soldier to fight. Not try to 'shape' them by swapping their roles.

Same thing with a gal who knows and prefers to fight in melee and potentially doesn't know a thing of archery - which takes years to master.

And if the engineer is dead, and you need someone to do their job, then what?

You try to find someone who knows what they are doing.

And certainly not an 'archer' who misfires the arrow right through your Mage Hawke's head, for an instance.

[Blastback]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Blastback wrote...
If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

No, what you do is get your butt transfered to a new unit where the commander isn't a raving idiot.

Less of an idiot, more of a lunatic, thank you very much!

And all of you, quit defeating my points with your logic!

[Blastback]

Melness wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat. If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

If you're the leader, you'll tell the engineer to do this deal and the soldier to fight. Not try to 'shape' them by swapping their roles.

Same thing with a gal who knows and prefers to fight in melee and potentially doesn't know a thing of archery - which takes years to master.

And if the engineer is dead, and you need someone to do their job, then what?

You try to find someone who knows what they are doing.

And certainly not an 'archer' who misfires the arrow right through your Mage Hawke's head, for an instance.

But what story infromation tells us that Isabela isn't a capable archer?  That she doesn't know what she's doing vs simply prefering to use melee.

[the_one_54321]

Lt. Hawke: You! private!

Cpl. Machine Gunner: I'm a corporal, El Tee.

Lt. Hawke: Private, grab that grenade launcher and start hammering the enemy position!

Cpl. Machine Gunner: I'm a machine gunner, El Tee. ...and a corporal...You know that.....*worried* don't you? I don't know how to operate that grenade launcher.

Lt. Hawke: *maniacal laugh* Well learn real quick, private!

Cpl. Machine Gunner: *whisper* Omg, we're all gonna die...

[moilami]

TheCreeper wrote...

Why would she need to pick a bow anyways? In what situation would you need her to use a bow when you got two other companions that Use a Crossbow and bow?

It is not about that. I am absolutely sure the game can be played hands down through without Isabella ever touching a bow. And if they want to portray Isabella as a childish moron who refuses to touch bows, then just go for it. It is really all the same for me. However professional rogue/warrior type would not have such totalitarist  fanboy mentality regarding weapons. As such she would be able to use bows. Not as good as some expert archer, but she would be able to use bows and she would not spit on bows.

Anyway Bioware makes of her what they want. After that I observe how she is.

Modifié par moilami, 18 janvier 2011 - 10:05 .

[Heimdall]

Blastback wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Defining the character as someone who is willing and able to do more than just flip around with daggers?  It alows me to decide just what role in the group and therefore story, Isabela has, aside from her charater interactions.

It's also a gameplay issue.  I like being able to have charatcters with more than just one function or skillset.  My first warden was a warrior who both duel wielded and used a sword and shield.  He was never as good as Alistar at tanking, or Sten at DPS, but he could fill whatever role I needed filled at the moment.  Most of my companions in BG2 were multi/dual class. 

  But she isn't your character, so why should you be able to decide what she can do? 

Cause it's fun!

It's less about defining her, than her role in the group.  Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat.  If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.  And while I realise that Hawke's party isnt a disiplined military organisation (or is it?) Hawke should be able to control how the others fight.  After all, we control what they do in combat, what powers they use, who they attack.  Why not what weapon they use?  It worked great in Baldur's Gate, KotOR, and Origins.

Yeah I think everyone else has respnded to this enough that I don't need to.  You don't tell someone who isn't trained to use a bow to shoot at the enemy.  On the off chance they hit anything it'll just as likely be you as the enemy.

[Heimdall]

moilami wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Why would she need to pick a bow anyways? In what situation would you need her to use a bow when you got two other companions that Use a Crossbow and bow?

It is not about that. I am absolutely sure the game can be played hands down through without Isabella ever touching a bow. And if they want to portray Isabella as a childish moron who refuses to touch bows, then just go for it. It is really all the same for me. However professional rogue/warrior type would not have such totalitarist  fanboy mentality regarding weapons. As such she would be able to use bows. Not as good as some expert archer, but she would be able to use bows and she would not spit on bows.

Anyway Bioware makes of her what they want. After that I observe how she is.

  Specilizing in one weapons makes her very good or even the best with that weapon, at the cost of not learning others.  It makes sense.

[nightcobra]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Lt. Hawke: You! private!
Cpl. Machine Gunner: I'm a corporal, El Tee.
Lt. Hawke: Private, grab that grenade launcher and start hammering the enemy position!
Cpl. Machine Gunner: I'm a machine gunner, El Tee. ...and a corporal...You know that.....*worried* don't you? I don't know how to operate that grenade launcher.
Lt. Hawke: *maniacal laugh* Well learn real quick, private!
Cpl. Machine Gunner: *whisper* Omg, we're all gonna die...

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 18 janvier 2011 - 10:10 .

[Il Divo]

moilami wrote...

It is not about that. I am absolutely sure the game can be played hands down through without Isabella ever touching a bow. And if they want to portray Isabella as a childish moron who refuses to touch bows, then just go for it. It is really all the same for me. However professional rogue/warrior type would not have such totalitarist  fanboy mentality regarding weapons. As such she would be able to use bows. Not as good as some expert archer, but she would be able to use bows and she would not spit on bows.

But is this necessarily a fair position to take? Remember, warrior/rogue is simply an abstraction to justify the mechanics of the game. Even in tabletops, particularly ones with focus on melee, it's more than possible to find characters who will be completely useless when presented with certain options.

Take Iron Heroes for example. There are classes, such as the Archer, which focus on proficiency with bows above all else. I am currently playing a Weapon Master which is somewhat similar, but focuses on training with a single melee weapon to the point where if I do not have access to that weapon, I am extremely limited. And then there's even other classes, such as the Man at Arms, which choose to focus on being jacks of all trades. From a story/narrative perspective, Isabella choosing to only dual wield daggers becomes an aspect of her character.

[Blastback]

I think part of this failure to communicate might stem from you all looking at this realisticaly in regards to weapon training, and me looking at the leveling system with no regards towards realism.



Someone pointed out that in Origins, you could learn multiple weapon specialisations, which is unrealistic. That bothers some people. Me, I embrace that in a game.My demands towards realism fall elsewhere.

[Il Divo]

Blastback wrote...

I think part of this failure to communicate might stem from you all looking at this realisticaly in regards to weapon training, and me looking at the leveling system with no regards towards realism.

Someone pointed out that in Origins, you could learn multiple weapon specialisations, which is unrealistic. That bothers some people. Me, I embrace that in a game.My demands towards realism fall elsewhere.

I guess I just look at it differently. I look to examples such as Gimli and Legolas in LotR, and how their weapon choice/skills are just as much a testament to their personalities as anything else. I have trouble justifying to myself the idea that Oghren should specialize in anything other than 2 handers when he seems the type who likes to get 'in the thick' of combat.  

[moilami]

bsbcaer wrote...

Alright, Im not sure if you have every tried archery.  I have, it takes a lot of time and practice to get anywhere NEAR profecient enough to shoot accurately and powerful enough to hurt anyone (other than your own damn arm) on a regular basis.  That's why my compromise would only allow Isabela (in this hypothetical scenario, because it's not really going to happen) one slot to be able to use a bow but none of the special abilities. 

Um, I want to disagree on this. Archery is not that hard with shortbow type bows (or compound bows, my favorit). (Those traditional English long bows can be a little bit different (requires more str to hold the aim and launch the arrow full speed. I haven't ever tried those). Crossbows on the other hand are totally different and not much skill is needed to shoot accurately with them.

[AlanC9]

Lord Aesir wrote...
]Yeah I think everyone else has respnded to this enough that I don't need to.  You don't tell someone who isn't trained to use a bow to shoot at the enemy.  On the off chance they hit anything it'll just as likely be you as the enemy.

But this isn't quite the issue with the DA2 design. Rogue Hawkes will be able to use bows without spending talents in bows, won't they?

[Heimdall]

Il Divo wrote...

Blastback wrote...

I think part of this failure to communicate might stem from you all looking at this realisticaly in regards to weapon training, and me looking at the leveling system with no regards towards realism.

Someone pointed out that in Origins, you could learn multiple weapon specialisations, which is unrealistic. That bothers some people. Me, I embrace that in a game.My demands towards realism fall elsewhere.

I guess I just look at it differently. I look to examples such as Gimli and Legolas in LotR, and how their weapon choice/skills are just as much a testament to their personalities as anything else. I have trouble justifying to myself the idea that Oghren should specialize in anything other than 2 handers when he seems the type who likes to get 'in the thick' of combat.  

  Exactly... though Legolas could use both knives and bows but hey, he had centuries to work that out.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat. If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

If you're the leader, you'll tell the engineer to do this deal and the soldier to fight. Not try to 'shape' them by swapping their roles.

Same thing with a gal who knows and prefers to fight in melee and potentially doesn't know a thing of archery - which takes years to master.

And if the engineer is dead, and you need someone to do their job, then what?

You try to find someone who knows what they are doing.

And certainly not an 'archer' who misfires the arrow right through your Mage Hawke's head, for an instance.

But what story infromation tells us that Isabela isn't a capable archer?  That she doesn't know what she's doing vs simply prefering to use melee.

The fact she can't carry a bow

[Blastback]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat. If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

If you're the leader, you'll tell the engineer to do this deal and the soldier to fight. Not try to 'shape' them by swapping their roles.

Same thing with a gal who knows and prefers to fight in melee and potentially doesn't know a thing of archery - which takes years to master.

And if the engineer is dead, and you need someone to do their job, then what?

You try to find someone who knows what they are doing.

And certainly not an 'archer' who misfires the arrow right through your Mage Hawke's head, for an instance.

But what story infromation tells us that Isabela isn't a capable archer?  That she doesn't know what she's doing vs simply prefering to use melee.

The fact she can't carry a bow

And in ME2, half the party couldn't use Asault rifles in game.  Then, during the final mission, everyone suddenly has rifle proficency.

[Heimdall]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
]Yeah I think everyone else has respnded to this enough that I don't need to.  You don't tell someone who isn't trained to use a bow to shoot at the enemy.  On the off chance they hit anything it'll just as likely be you as the enemy.

But this isn't quite the issue with the DA2 design. Rogue Hawkes will be able to use bows without spending talents in bows, won't they?

  Yes, because this means they trained with bows.  And as the Hawke is the PC it is your perogative to make that choice.  Isabella is not the PC, and she has chosen to focus on melee, and thus has no bow talents.

[Heimdall]

Blastback wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Melness wrote...

Hawke is the leader, he, and thus the player, controls what role the others have in combat. If your in a military unit, and your leader tells you to use a grenade launcher even though your a machine gunner, you grab the grenade launcher.

If you're the leader, you'll tell the engineer to do this deal and the soldier to fight. Not try to 'shape' them by swapping their roles.

Same thing with a gal who knows and prefers to fight in melee and potentially doesn't know a thing of archery - which takes years to master.

And if the engineer is dead, and you need someone to do their job, then what?

You try to find someone who knows what they are doing.

And certainly not an 'archer' who misfires the arrow right through your Mage Hawke's head, for an instance.

But what story infromation tells us that Isabela isn't a capable archer?  That she doesn't know what she's doing vs simply prefering to use melee.

The fact she can't carry a bow

And in ME2, half the party couldn't use Asault rifles in game.  Then, during the final mission, everyone suddenly has rifle proficency.

  Cutscene inconsistency, besides, I never saw them hit anything with those rifles...

[moilami]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

moilami wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

moilami wrote...

shantisands wrote...

We can't force Isabella to pick up a bow, and frankly she may indeed gut you if you may try to impose your will on her in that way.  As she should of course.  

Professionals would use themselves the best tools to get the job done. To say Isaballa wont touch a bow is to portray her as a moron who should grow up.

To force her to use a bow when she is a duelist and that is where all her training is is to portray her as a mindless moron who should grow up.

You did not get it. Mature and reasonable person would not have to be "forced" to use a bow when the situation would call that bow would be the best tool to get the job done.

To say Isabella can only use daggers because that is what she has specialized is to say Isabella is moron or the rules just plain suck.

And it is all the same for me what kind of game Bioware makes. I most probably will play it through, enjoy of it, and have a lot of thought processes of very varied things as Bioware games make me inspired. Those thoughts will include lolling at the game too, and it doesn't make a me bit bad person.

Isabela has trained all her life to become a duelist, and now you come along and want her to be a master marksman. You see the dilemma?

No, sorry I don't see that kind of dilemma xD

I have never said she should become master marksman. I have said if I would have to write a file of her I would write "stubborn girl who refuses to touch bows".

[Heimdall]

moilami wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

moilami wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

moilami wrote...

shantisands wrote...

We can't force Isabella to pick up a bow, and frankly she may indeed gut you if you may try to impose your will on her in that way.  As she should of course.  

Professionals would use themselves the best tools to get the job done. To say Isaballa wont touch a bow is to portray her as a moron who should grow up.

To force her to use a bow when she is a duelist and that is where all her training is is to portray her as a mindless moron who should grow up.

You did not get it. Mature and reasonable person would not have to be "forced" to use a bow when the situation would call that bow would be the best tool to get the job done.

To say Isabella can only use daggers because that is what she has specialized is to say Isabella is moron or the rules just plain suck.

And it is all the same for me what kind of game Bioware makes. I most probably will play it through, enjoy of it, and have a lot of thought processes of very varied things as Bioware games make me inspired. Those thoughts will include lolling at the game too, and it doesn't make a me bit bad person.

Isabela has trained all her life to become a duelist, and now you come along and want her to be a master marksman. You see the dilemma?

No, sorry I don't see that kind of dilemma xD

I have never said she should become master marksman. I have said if I would have to write a file of her I would write "stubborn girl who refuses to touch bows".

  Why would she want to bother with a weapon she doesn't know how to use?

[-flashblade-]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Anyway Bioware makes of her what they want. After that I observe how she is.
Specilizing in one weapons makes her very good or even the best with that weapon, at the cost of not learning others.  It makes sense.

Yeah, that will be real helpful the moment there are a bunch of archers on a fortified object, like a wall and she can't reach anyone in melee.

Hawke: Isabela we are in real trouble here, use the goddamn crossbow I gave you!

Isabela: No I refuse! I just use my favourite pair.

Hawke: Damn it Isabela, they are going to kill us so stop picking your nose with those damn daggers!