1044 réponses à ce sujet

[snackrat]

We can't skip dialogue? Augh. I always listen to all the dialogue first time around, and whenever there is new dialogue, but I still like being able to skip it... when starting Dragon Age: Origins for the [i[n[/i]th time, I don't want to have to listen to the history of Ostagar every FREAKING time.



That's one thing that one thing that most seriously annoyed me about Mass Effect 2 - that the opening scene couldn't be skipped. Ever. Even if you just wanted to recreate your character, one of a different gender. In the end I would just leave the room, do something else, and come back in ten minutes. (Then I could play for one minutes, and leave for ANOTHER ten while Shepard gets space'd. )

[Heimdall]

Dev came in and said you can skip dialogue

[Sylvius the Mad]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you play a role, you become that role, while you play it. Basic acting.[/quote]
If that were true, then it would be impossible to play multiple characters at a time in any game.

And those games do exist.
[quote]And isn't Isabela's specialization in DA2 a unique one to her? Swashbuckler or something.[/quote]
Specs don't remove core class talent trees.
[quote]DaggerFiend wrote...

Well, I wouldn't say they're actively being obstructionist for no reason. More like that's a side effect, and they really don't care, because hey, Isabela doesn't use bows.[/quote]
But they should care, because it's clearly an unnecessary side-effect, and it causes harm without offering a corresponding benefit.
[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

My point is that you have no control over what Isabella chooses to do.  She is not your character, it doesn't make sense for you to control her preferences.[/quote]
And yet I do, to some degree.  You keep undercutting your own point.
[quote]Because she isn't my character.[/quote]
You're presupposing your conclusion.
[quote]It's a stretch enough for them to allow me to control her as you describe.  I say again that she's doing as Hawke asks her too, but I'd rather she didn't.  Which is why I assign most of that to game mechanics and pretend it doesn't happen when I roleplay.[/quote]
If you can pretend one way, why can't I pretend the other?

Oh, right, because the game is designed specifically to prevent my approach, without offering any offsetting benefit to anyone.
[quote]Il Divo wrote...

But that's my point. Those events are set in stone and if Bioware wants a story with focus, they can't let you out ditch that road. When you occupy the role of multiple characters, deciding how they all interact with each other, you're no longer a player; you're a writer. The point of a game is that you do not have absolute control over all aspects of the world, in this case the characters.[/quote]
I never claimed to.  There are still NPCs over whom I have no control at all.  Teagan, for example, or Howe.
[quote]A video game also can never take into account every motivation which could potentially fuel your character. To expect them to do so is absurdity.[/quote]
And I'm not asking for that.  You're misrepresenting my position.

I'm asking for them not to go out of their way to limit playstyles.
[quote]Yes, which means you must always operate within the limits of that medium. [/quote]
Absolutely, but previous BioWare games demonstrate that these changes in DA2 are not limitations of the medium, as we've seen these same designers not be bound by them.

I win again.
[quote]But what does it matter if the story itself lacks significance or satisfaction? The sandbox style is in defiance of focus and narrative. The sandbox style is intended to promote the free and open world which you can explore.[/quote]
I'm not asking for a sandbox.  At no point here have I asked for a sandbox. 

Stop misrepresenting my position.
[quote]Then you should actually understand how difficult, if not impossible it becomes for both those characters which you control to have any kind of meaningful interactions, which is often why DMs discourage using more than one PC.[/quote]
I agree, it's unusual, which is why I mentioned the much more typical followers scenario, which you've completely ignored.
[quote]Believe me, I know, I've done it. You're basically asking that Bioware place the dialogue, personality, and action of every companion character under your direct command. All this does is ruin the friendship you craft with Alistair, the relationship you craft with Morrigan, etc. It ruins character interactions, in short. [/quote]
At no point have I asked for this.  You're not even trying to underrstnd my position, as you?  You're just spouting stock responses to complaint you've heard before.
[quote] As Creeper says, your style makes the game closer to the SIMS than DnD. DnD is not just about talking to random npcs whom you can kill/never see again. It also builds up the relationship that you have with the other players/party members. That is not possible when you are your party.[/quote]
Even accepting your poor representation of my position, what you say here isn't even true.  Absolutely it's possible for characters you control to have deep and meaningful relationships with each other.

In the City Elf origin, what is the relationship between the PC and Shianni?  Any answer you give here beyond what's actually shown in the game (which isn't much) is something entirely of your own fabrication.  But if you don't know what your PC's relationship to Shianni is, how do you know how your character will act with regard to her?

[Heimdall]

Xewaka wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Hawke can only give her advice about what talents to learn, not force her to learn things she has no interest in, like archery.

I'm
not asking what Hawke can make her do.  I'm asking what I, the player, can make her do, and why there are restrictions on that. I'm not Hawke.  Hawke is fictional.

 
You are playing as Hawke, not as Isabella, you are limited by what Hawke can do.  Though this is a difference in our roleplaying methods.  I have never seen myself as controlling the entire party in any way the same as I control my PC.  I don't play as them, only the PC.

Yet you are given full combat control and full development control. That is at odds with not playing them, from a mechanical standpoint.

  As I said, that is her taking Hawke's advice and commands as far as I'm concerned.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DaggerFiend wrote...

Just noticed you responded to my other post. What exactly, Sylvius, are you asking? Because I don't understand it. Be as detailed as you think you need to be.

If BioWare is telling the story they want to tell, and some players want to be told that story, why is BioWare forcing players who want to be told a more mutable story to be limited to BioWare's authored story when they don't need to do that in order to satisfy that initial group of passive story-receptive players?

[DaggerFiend]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But they should care, because it's clearly an unnecessary side-effect, and it causes harm without offering a corresponding benefit.

I'm not going to argue that I see benefit in this, because there'd be no point. We'd just devolve into the mess of arguments based on opinion that this thread seems to be full of. Instead, I'm only going to say that you're right, they should care, but they don't. They weighed the options, and decided they care about this less. As Mr. Gaider says, c'est la vie.

[Blastback]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DaggerFiend wrote...

Just noticed you responded to my other post. What exactly, Sylvius, are you asking? Because I don't understand it. Be as detailed as you think you need to be.

If BioWare is telling the story they want to tell, and some players want to be told that story, why is BioWare forcing players who want to be told a more mutable story to be limited to BioWare's authored story when they don't need to do that in order to satisfy that initial group of passive story-receptive players?

Easy awnser, Bioware has a specific experiance in mind for DA2, that they want all their players to have.  What the player wants out of the game is irrelevent. 

[Blessed Silence]

ViSeirA wrote...

I always asked myself a question that nearly drove me mad... Why can't the coffee maker make cookies?

I like to think of 6 impossible things before breakfast.  Kinda like Alice does in that new Alice in Wonderland movie.
In all honesty, it is our game in the sense we make the decisions or what Hawke and company does.  If you want more than that, make your own game.  Lots of RPG makers out there.

[bsbcaer]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And isn't Isabela's specialization in DA2 a unique one to her? Swashbuckler or something.

Specs don't remove core class talent trees.

Isabela's Swashbuckler web does replace the archery web

[DaggerFiend]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If BioWare is telling the story they want to tell, and some players want to be told that story, why is BioWare forcing players who want to be told a more mutable story to be limited to BioWare's authored story when they don't need to do that in order to satisfy that initial group of passive story-receptive players?

I'm going to guess that they wanted the experience for us passive story-receptive players to be as powerful as possible. It's a sacrifice to players like you, Sylvius, and I'm sorry about that. Truly, I wish there was a way everyone could get what they want out of this. My only suggestion is to try it, and look at it not as a game that you want to play, but as an interactive novel. Again, I'm sorry you couldn't get the game you wanted, Sylvius.

EDIT: On that note, if you do find a video game that gives you exactly what you want, tell me about it, because I would love that game too.

Modifié par DaggerFiend, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:26 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

YuniSticksitDeep wrote...

But the truth is simply this....

The game is  being streamlined and de-optimized for Two reasons only.....

To Reduce time to ship and Resources (Read Money)  spent.....

But that doesn't explain it.  They're actually expending resources to restrict our choices.  Surely given all of the companion characters he same base classes would be easier than implementing custom versions of those classes for each of them.

Lord Aesir wrote...

All of its talents do.

That's not relevant.  if you think it is, please show me how.

A duelist is not a ranged specialization, a player's character can use a ranged weapon but none of the duelist weapon talents would be usable.  Isabella is emphasized as a duelist, so it makes no sense for her to wield ranged weapons if that is her chosen style.

That's not the point you're arguing.  you're trying to demonstrate that it's important that her failure to use ranged weapons is mandatory.

And you haven't done that.  All you're offering are reasons why a player would want to follow BioWare's suggested development path, which is actually part of my position.

I don't think players need to be forced to follow that path in order to do so.  They can still tell the story they want to tell to the vast majority of players without forcing that version of events upon everyone.

I have never seen myself as controlling the entire party in any way the same as I control my PC.  I don't play as them, only the PC.

So when your PC gets knocked out in combat, what do you do?  Just close your eyes and hope for the best?

Blastback wrote...

Easy awnser, Bioware has a specific experiance in mind for DA2, that they want all their players to have.  What the player wants out of the game is irrelevent.

But that requires they be malicious, or pointlessly exclusive.  I don't think they're actively trying to exclude me and players like me, so I want to know why they appear to be doing it.

bsbcaer wrote...

Isabela's Swashbuckler web does replace the archery web

Do other specs work like that?  If Hawke learns Force Mage, for example, does it replace the Nature tree?

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When you play a role, you become that role, while you play it. Basic acting.

If that were true, then it would be impossible to play multiple characters at a time in any game.

You havn't ever seen a one-man act in your entire life have you? It's perfectly possible to play several different characters. However, the more variable each character is, the less impactful your performance will be. Improvising 5 different characters will never reach the same potential as playing 5 predefined characters.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DaggerFiend wrote...

Just noticed you responded to my other post. What exactly, Sylvius, are you asking? Because I don't understand it. Be as detailed as you think you need to be.

If BioWare is telling the story they want to tell, and some players want to be told that story, why is BioWare forcing players who want to be told a more mutable story to be limited to BioWare's authored story when they don't need to do that in order to satisfy that initial group of passive story-receptive players?

To lessen the amount of variables. That is the simple answer.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You havn't ever seen a one-man act in your entire life have you? It's perfectly possible to play several different characters.

Right.  You just supported my position.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:29 .

[Xewaka]

bsbcaer wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And isn't Isabela's specialization in DA2 a unique one to her? Swashbuckler or something.

Specs don't remove core class talent trees.

Isabela's Swashbuckler web does replace the archery web

Does she have access to shadow, duelist, and assassin, then?

[Heimdall]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My point is that you have no control over what Isabella chooses to do.  She is not your character, it doesn't make sense for you to control her preferences.

And yet I do, to some degree.  You keep undercutting your own point.

you do not, she just follows Hawke's advice

It's a stretch enough for them to allow me to control her as you describe.  I say again that she's doing as Hawke asks her too, but I'd rather she didn't.  Which is why I assign most of that to game mechanics and pretend it doesn't happen when I roleplay.

If you can pretend one way, why can't I pretend the other?

Oh, right, because the game is designed specifically to prevent my approach, without offering any offsetting benefit to anyone.

It benefits my approach.  As I have explained, it makes her seem like an individual will.  And as you yourself admitted earlier, I have been explaining why people would like this.  Those people benefit, so don't claim it benefits nobody.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:53 .

[DaggerFiend]

Xewaka wrote...

Does she have access to shadow, duelist, and assassin, then?

That's actually a good question. I've yet to hear anything for or against this. Does anyone know, or can a dev clear that up, or something?

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
So when your PC gets knocked out in combat, what do you do?  Just close your eyes and hope for the best?

I'm going to do this.  Or at least, take my hands off the keyboard and mouse and just see if my tactics-instructed party can win without the PC. 

A potential exception would be resurrection spells if they are not, themselves, programmable into tactics.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:35 .

[bsbcaer]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

Isabela's Swashbuckler web does replace the archery web

Do other specs work like that?  If Hawke learns Force Mage, for example, does it replace the Nature tree?

I have no idea, I haven't seen any of the other skill pages for any of the other companions.  Making a logical leap, it makes sense that Varric, for example, will have a web associated with Bianca that replaces dual wielding

We weren't talking about Hawke, we were talking about Isabela and her swashbuckler web...You know very well (from the screenshots) that a mage hawke will not lose any other webs if he chooses a specialization

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You havn't ever seen a one-man act in your entire life have you? It's perfectly possible to play several different characters.

Right.  You just supported my position.

If you had bothered reading the rest of my post you would have realized I didn't. But meh, can't expect that from you...

[bsbcaer]

Xewaka wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And isn't Isabela's specialization in DA2 a unique one to her? Swashbuckler or something.

Specs don't remove core class talent trees.

Isabela's Swashbuckler web does replace the archery web

Does she have access to shadow, duelist, and assassin, then?

From what we know, the swashbuckler web replaces the archery web (ie. she will not be able to use a bow), that has nothing to do with specializations and, as a rogue, Im making the logical assumption (based on what devs have said in different threads) that Isabela will be able to access a specialization at level 7 and then a new one at level 14

[Blastback]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You havn't ever seen a one-man act in your entire life have you? It's perfectly possible to play several different characters.

Right.  You just supported my position.

If you had bothered reading the rest of my post you would have realized I didn't. But meh, can't expect that from you...

What matters to Syl is that you can, which is what he wants.

[Xewaka]

bsbcaer wrote...
From what we know, the swashbuckler web replaces the archery web (ie. she will not be able to use a bow), that has nothing to do with specializations and, as a rogue, Im making the logical assumption (based on what devs have said in different threads) that Isabela will be able to access a specialization at level 7 and then a new one at level 14

Well, I understood from the different dev posts that Swashbuckler web replaced the Duelist specialization web. Hence my puzzling at randomly removing one spec tree from companions. I'll try to find out which case is true.

Modifié par Xewaka, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:41 .

[Heimdall]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

All of its talents do.

That's not relevant.  if you think it is, please show me how.

  It is, because ranged weapons having nothing to do with the duelist, so why should she have anything to do with them?

A duelist is not a ranged specialization, a player's character can use a ranged weapon but none of the duelist weapon talents would be usable.  Isabella is emphasized as a duelist, so it makes no sense for her to wield ranged weapons if that is her chosen style.

That's not the point you're arguing.  you're trying to demonstrate that it's important that her failure to use ranged weapons is mandatory.

And you haven't done that.  All you're offering are reasons why a player would want to follow BioWare's suggested development path, which is actually part of my position.

I don't think players need to be forced to follow that path in order to do so.  They can still tell the story they want to tell to the vast majority of players without forcing that version of events upon everyone.

I have not been trying to say that.  Don't try to tell me what I'm arguing.  I'm saying it makes more sense.  You just want the option to act irrationally and control a character you aren't playing as in the same way you would control your PC's actions.  Why is that nonsensical option mandatory to have?

I have never seen myself as controlling the entire party in any way the same as I control my PC.  I don't play as them, only the PC.

So when your PC gets knocked out in combat, what do you do?  Just close your eyes and hope for the best?

  This is what I do:

*turn off roleplaying switch*
*Defeat the enemy or bring back my PC as quickly as possible*
*Turn back on roleplaying switch*

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:50 .

[Merci357]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I have never seen myself as controlling the entire party in any way the same as I control my PC.  I don't play as them, only the PC.

So when your PC gets knocked out in combat, what do you do?  Just close your eyes and hope for the best?

Either that, if I've some hope my party can win the fight with my tactics (as in my advice I gave them how to perform in a given situation), or I reload.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blastback wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You havn't ever seen a one-man act in your entire life have you? It's perfectly possible to play several different characters.

Right.  You just supported my position.

If you had bothered reading the rest of my post you would have realized I didn't. But meh, can't expect that from you...

What matters to Syl is that you can, which is what he wants.

... So he wants to play with himself?  (couldn't resist)