1044 réponses à ce sujet

[-flashblade-]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She is already shown to throw a knife in the Rise to Power trailer (likely in a cutscene though), but that just ain't good enough.

Yeah and there is also a cutscene in DAO where the warden kills somebody with a thrown knife. Can the warden throw knives in actual combat?

I actually wouldn't care about her using a bow. What I do care about is that she uses a ranged weapon the moment this is appropriate as demonstrated by my example where I specifically mentioned that she can't get to the enemy by any means. Either this or she better have a supernatural talent like the guild wars assassins shadowstep to always get into melee combat. If not she is indeed a moron and an easy target as soon as an enemy knows that she will under no circumstances pick up a ranged weapon. Easily exploited weakness galore ends in easy peasy take her out of the picture situation.

[AlanC9]

Not that easy. You have to not only get her in a position where she can't get at the ranged attacker, but also a position from which she can neither escape altogether nor find cover.



And if you have that much control over the terms of the encounter, you'd beat her whether she can use a bow poorly or not.

[-flashblade-]

Why would I want her to escape? She is part of a group and I would be really mad if she escaped to save her own miserable life and leaves the rest to die. Same thing she hides shivering behind cover doing nothing. I am not assuming that she can use a ranged weapon poorly. I am assuming she is smart and therefore decently proficient in a ranged weapon of her choice so that this situation can never happen to her although throwing knives wouldn't be that effective since their range is very limited.

Else you better be a Jedi.Then you can throw your melee weapon and let it cut people apart with the use of the force.

[EmperorSahlertz]

-flashblade- wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She is already shown to throw a knife in the Rise to Power trailer (likely in a cutscene though), but that just ain't good enough.

Yeah and there is also a cutscene in DAO where the warden kills somebody with a thrown knife. Can the warden throw knives in actual combat?

I actually wouldn't care about her using a bow. What I do care about is that she uses a ranged weapon the moment this is appropriate as demonstrated by my example where I specifically mentioned that she can't get to the enemy by any means. Either this or she better have a supernatural talent like the guild wars assassins shadowstep to always get into melee combat. If not she is indeed a moron and an easy target as soon as an enemy knows that she will under no circumstances pick up a ranged weapon. Easily exploited weakness galore ends in easy peasy take her out of the picture situation.

.........
"Omg whats with mages being unable to dual wield and go bat**** crazy in melee?!?!?!?!? What am I to do when I face Templars or Qunari Mage-handlers? "

Answer: Bring someone else than a mage.....

Also, rogues do have an ability to "teleport" to the back of an enemy, so I guess that whole problem solves itself. Doesn't it?

[The Big Nothing]

Inarborat wrote...

Definitely not wading through 30 pages but this caught my eye...

Sir JK wrote...

Which I think is what Mike Laidlaw meant, whereas it is a good thing that Isabela cannot have her outfit changed because how she clothes herself is one of the ways we are told of her personality.

Meh, that's such a weak excuse.  Shouldn't a fully voiced character be defined by..I don't know...her voice and her words?  Just be honest and say we didn't have time, we forgot to design them or we didn't feel like designing companion specific armors. 

Can't wait for the DLC appearance packs!!! 

It's not an excuse. They've designed a cornucopia of outfits for their numerous other great games, so your "Bioware was negligent with the wardrobe" reasoning holds no water.
And clothing isn't a genuine expression of character? Really? I know that when I see a girl with a low collar, short skirt, and fishnet stockings, I have some pretty strong preconceptions about her character. Sure, her clothing doesn't define her, but it is a nuance that contributes to the greater picture.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:43 .

[Uomoz1987]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider says he's excited that the players can't change Isabela's garment to something less Isabela-like.  Why?  It's our game, right?  Why can't we do what we like?

You're assuming you're going to play a DA:O or BG like game. That's your assumption and by no means should be the truth. DAII will probably be more like a movie or a book experience (definitely a book because Varrick is reading some sort of diary in the official trailers), and that is achieved by telling a story with defined characters, in RPG elements (voice acting, dialogue, interactions) and ofcourse in combat elements (combat style, characteristic moves and powers).

MY OPINION, NOT THE RIGHT ONE: I play BW games (and I don't have the arrogance to say they're mine), for the great storytelling, the unbelivable feeling combat give me (i love the semi-realistic way BW express magic, with fireballs that may damage you allies, or the slow swings of a greataxe in Sten giant hands etc). I don't care about exploiting and/or playing non-canon playstyles in BW games, thats because i feel the focus of the games is in the storytelling (and characterized skill trees are somewhat bound to storytelling/RP) not in the game mechanics.

Fun =/=Freedom.

Thats my 2 cents.

PS: sorry for the bad english, I'm trying my best .

Modifié par Uomoz1987, 19 janvier 2011 - 01:22 .

[Heimdall]

-flashblade- wrote...

Why would I want her to escape? She is part of a group and I would be really mad if she escaped to save her own miserable life and leaves the rest to die. Same thing she hides shivering behind cover doing nothing. I am not assuming that she can use a ranged weapon poorly. I am assuming she is smart and therefore decently proficient in a ranged weapon of her choice so that this situation can never happen to her although throwing knives wouldn't be that effective since their range is very limited.

Else you better be a Jedi.Then you can throw your melee weapon and let it cut people apart with the use of the force.

Sounds like a weak excuse to be upset.  Do you complain that Warriors don't have ranged talents?  In any situation it's your own fault for not bringing in an archer or mage.

[moilami]

Blastback wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blastback wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You havn't ever seen a one-man act in your entire life have you? It's perfectly possible to play several different characters.

Right.  You just supported my position.

If you had bothered reading the rest of my post you would have realized I didn't. But meh, can't expect that from you...

What matters to Syl is that you can, which is what he wants.

... So he wants to play with himself?  (couldn't resist)

Bad Sahlertz!  Bad!  *Whacks with broom*

ROFL.

[tmp7704]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Actually seems like pretty good business to me.  They are playing to their strengths.  BW does an excellent job in cinematic presentation and scripting out the journey for you.  I doubt they would want to compete with someone like Betheseda at making a huge open world RPG, that wouldn't be good business.

Not sure if it's that good business when you think about it -- as it was, BioWare games were somewhat unique mix between the free-form and strict "press X to advance the plot along its rails". But what you describe as playing to their strengths can be seen simply like moving towards the latter model. And that would just --instead of making them compete with someone like Bethesda-- put them in direct competition with someone like Square-Enix.

Would that really be so smart? Not sure. Given lukewarm and/or mixed reviews the latest game of this type (FF13) has received precisely because it exercises very strict grip on "player's experience" and how things proceed, even less so.

[Ghandorian]

David Gaider wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
More seriously, it seems kind of odd to be interested in companion customization if this is your starting-point.

Well, Sylvius approaches this from the point of view that he wants to play every party member as if they were his PC, including having them lead the party and take point in conversations. We haven't really done that since BG1, of course, but that's what he wants-- and each step we take away from that makes his pedantic little heart cringe.

I would argue his twisting of our words to suit his agenda, but there's no point. Most people doing that would be doing it out of narrow-minded jerkwad-ness, but Sylvius is very likely as earnest as ever, twisting himself up in his own logic until he can't see out of it. Which, in the end, means he just wants what he wants whether we're willing to make that game or not. So... more power to him, I guess.

As for the rest of the chest-beating going on in this thread, it's interesting. I don't think anyone should buy a game they're not interested in, and some people seem so certain that they'll dislike the changes that have been made I'm not sure they even would enjoy the game when they play it-- you'd need an open mind for that, whereas some of these folks will go in looking for reasons to back up their preconceptions and thus will surely find them.

Which is kinda sad, isn't it? As a reason to play a game, I mean. I hope I'm wrong on that point, and some of these folks will actually enjoy the game when they get it -- warts and all (for what game doesn't have a few?). C'est la vie!

I am caught half way between the two sides but your mention of warts actually shines a bit of light my way.

Why look so hard for the potential of a wart existing before we get to see this thing out in the open? Once all the lights are turned on and several thousand people have taken a good look those warts will be revealed. But until then why obsess over what might or might not be there? 

I can withstand the barrage of preorder lures until then. Heck I might even be able to hold off until the price drop, a few months after release, but if it looks as good as you guys say it is  . . . . . . .

[tmp7704]

Melness wrote...

Isabela! Use a bow to kill them!

Wait, you're asking me to fire a weapon that I rarely/never used, have next to no practice with (..)

Whose fault is it that it is the weapon rarely/never used?

The game spans ten years, supposedly. During this time you --the player-- are given free reign of exactly what talents and tricks Isabela learns -- you decide how to spend her skill points, what jewellery she wears and what runes she gets for her gear.

And yet, being unable to make her pick up a bow and practice with it in her spare time during all these years is supposed to actually make sense. Go figure.

Mechanical limitations of the gameplay are one thing, but trying to justify them with logic for the most part just lead to madness. One that'll require drinking lot of poultices to cure.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Inarborat wrote...

Definitely not wading through 30 pages but this caught my eye...

Sir JK wrote...

Which I think is what Mike Laidlaw meant, whereas it is a good thing that Isabela cannot have her outfit changed because how she clothes herself is one of the ways we are told of her personality.

Meh, that's such a weak excuse.  Shouldn't a fully voiced character be defined by..I don't know...her voice and her words?  Just be honest and say we didn't have time, we forgot to design them or we didn't feel like designing companion specific armors. 

Can't wait for the DLC appearance packs!!! 

Exactly, give us your credit card number and you can have all the outfits you want.

[moilami]

If Isabella can't use bows I shall always call her Isabella, my dear Nub.

[Beerfish]

tmp7704 wrote...

Melness wrote...

Isabela! Use a bow to kill them!

Wait, you're asking me to fire a weapon that I rarely/never used, have next to no practice with (..)

Whose fault is it that it is the weapon rarely/never used?

The game spans ten years, supposedly. During this time you --the player-- are given free reign of exactly what talents and tricks Isabela learns -- you decide how to spend her skill points, what jewellery she wears and what runes she gets for her gear.

And yet, being unable to make her pick up a bow and practice with it in her spare time during all these years is supposed to actually make sense. Go figure.

Mechanical limitations of the gameplay are one thing, but trying to justify them with logic for the most part just lead to madness. One that'll require drinking lot of poultices to cure.

There is a difference between making suggestions (which the companion carries out) that is within her area of expertise and comfort zone and ones without.

I'm an excel guy, my co-worker over time could encourage me to learn more visual basic to make macros, use more in depth functions etc.  I know excel pretty good, I'm comfortable with it and it's likely I'd be willing to work on something I enjoy and have an aptitude for.

Now take my co-worker and have him tell me to create a new access database for him by friday.  I'm not a database guy, I don't have the aptitude or interest in databases.  If he/she tells me learn access over the next 6 months I'm going to whine  "But I can do the same stuff in Excelllllllll.  I hate access, I don;t know anything about access, why should I waste time on access when I can get better at excel!"

As for equipping items, if my boss gives me a new computer, the latest version of Excel and some new excel utilities I'll be very happy.  Just like a companion will be happy to receive items that let them do their job better.

It's logical that a companion would follow suggestions that are beneficial to them and follow their chosen career path at least to some extent.  It doesn't mean it is illogical for them to have a line in the sand as far as things you can suggest/make them do.

Modifié par Beerfish, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:43 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why should she learn to use a bow in thsoe 10 years? The Prince guy and Varric is the party's archers. There is no reason for her to learn to use the bow, when she can do her job perfectly fine with knives.

[moilami]

Beerfish wrote...

Now take my co-worker and have him tell me to create a new access database for him by friday.  I'm not a database guy, I don't have the aptitude or interest in databases.  If he/she tells me learn access over the next 6 months I'm going to whine  "But I can do the same stuff in Excelllllllll.  I hate access, I don;t know anything about access, why should I waste time on access when I can get better at excel!"

Mister now you are talking about comp nerdy careers and not killer careers. Comp nerdys use preferred tools  - though only as long as they have a job where they can use them. After that they use whatever tools the employer forces them to use. Isabella is not a comp nerd but pro killer. She would prefer to use daggers, no questions about that, but she would for sure be able to use bow and use it also when the situation calls for it.

Beerfish wrote...

As for equipping items, if my boss gives me a new computer, the latest version of Excel and some new excel utilities I'll be very happy.  Just like a companion will be happy to receive items that let them do their job better.

Ok, those are your preferred tools. But if you would refuse to work with other tools you would be able to do something, you would be just bad, to say the least.

Beerfish wrote...

It's logical that a companion would follow suggestions that are beneficial to them and follow their chosen career path at least to some extent.  It doesn't mean it is illogical for them to have a line in the sand as far as things you can suggest/make them do.

I am perfectly fine even if BioWare predefines Isabella's all talent choises in advance. It would make sense for me because I would let Isaballa focus on stuff she wants. Some players would not like it, and they might think they would persuade/force Isabella learn to do what they want. Or just think it sucks they can't chose her talents.

But to define Isabella don't use bows at all, and Maker only knows why, just portraits Isabella as moron. It seems to be part of new rooted "paper-scissors-stone-free_kill" game design. Mage kills warrior, rogue kills mage, warrior kills rogue, and everyone kills archer xD

In the new system you supposedly need to chose "right skillset for the job" instead of chosing your favorite persons and get the job done by any means. I though know I will faceroll the game through with favorite persons and enjoy of the increased challenge in the same time.

And yes, Isabella my dear Nub will be part of my team even if the "mission" would require 10 archers.


Edit: Over and out from my part. This thread bores me.

Modifié par moilami, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:14 .

[Melness]

but she would for sure be able to use bow and use it also when the situation calls for it.

The fact that she can't use a bow is an indicator that she doesn't know how to. And since it takes years to master archery, then you're pretty much wrong.

[Felfenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Melness wrote...

Isabela! Use a bow to kill them!

Wait, you're asking me to fire a weapon that I rarely/never used, have next to no practice with (..)

Whose fault is it that it is the weapon rarely/never used?

The game spans ten years, supposedly. During this time you --the player-- are given free reign of exactly what talents and tricks Isabela learns -- you decide how to spend her skill points, what jewellery she wears and what runes she gets for her gear.

And yet, being unable to make her pick up a bow and practice with it in her spare time during all these years is supposed to actually make sense. Go figure.

Mechanical limitations of the gameplay are one thing, but trying to justify them with logic for the most part just lead to madness. One that'll require drinking lot of poultices to cure.

Why can't I make Morrigan accept the Chantry's teachings? She's my party member to do with and develop however I please in any and every way, no?

[Melness]

Whose fault is it that it is the weapon rarely/never used?

Her, she chose not to.

The game spans ten years, supposedly. During this time you --the player-- are given free reign of exactly what talents and tricks Isabela learns -- you decide how to spend her skill points, what jewellery she wears and what runes she gets for her gear.

I'm all for giving the player more options and freedom in an RPG, which is why I'm here instead of playing final fantasy or something. But even that should be limited to what makes sense for the character that the writing team envisioned.

If Isabela is a dual wielder, it is her character, her choice. It is no different than Wynne despising Blood Magic and the Player choosing it as her second specialization makes no sense.

And yet, being unable to make her pick up a bow and practice with it in her spare time during all these years is supposed to actually make sense. Go figure.

Going with that logic, my Mage Hawke could practice with an armor and a bow over the years and multi-class over every class avaiable!

Mechanical limitations of the gameplay are one thing, but trying to justify them with logic for the most part just lead to madness. One that'll require drinking lot of poultices to cure.

Explain me your logic behind Blood Mage Wynne, Legionnaire Scout Nathaniel, Keeper Anders, Spirit Healer and Blood Mage Whatever, Spirit Warrior/Reaver Sten, Bard Zevran and so on. If you manage to do so, then perhaps I'll accept you being able to completely change someone's character to fit your plans.

Modifié par Melness, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:35 .

[moilami]

Melness wrote...

but she would for sure be able to use bow and use it also when the situation calls for it.

The fact that she can't use a bow is an indicator that she doesn't know how to. And since it takes years to master archery, then you're pretty much wrong.

Hahaha, nobody talked about "mastering" anything. I talked about being able to use. If you would need years of training in order to be able to use bows, how the heck I learned it in one day and how all kind of peasant armies has learned it right away.

Bow is a basic tool for a rogue/warrior as much as is text editor for excel dude.

[MarchWaltz]

Damn Sylvius you just got owned by Bioware

[AlanC9]

moilami wrote...
Bow is a basic tool for a rogue/warrior as much as is text editor for excel dude.

Not all ancient and medieval warriors learned ranged weapons, you know.

[moilami]

Felfenix wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Melness wrote...

Isabela! Use a bow to kill them!

Wait, you're asking me to fire a weapon that I rarely/never used, have next to no practice with (..)

Whose fault is it that it is the weapon rarely/never used?

The game spans ten years, supposedly. During this time you --the player-- are given free reign of exactly what talents and tricks Isabela learns -- you decide how to spend her skill points, what jewellery she wears and what runes she gets for her gear.

And yet, being unable to make her pick up a bow and practice with it in her spare time during all these years is supposed to actually make sense. Go figure.

Mechanical limitations of the gameplay are one thing, but trying to justify them with logic for the most part just lead to madness. One that'll require drinking lot of poultices to cure.

Why can't I make Morrigan accept the Chantry's teachings? She's my party member to do with and develop however I please in any and every way, no?

Your comment was interesting so I came back for a moment.

Morri wont accept Chantry's teachings because it is religious question. It makes sense. But if pro killer would say "I totally refuse to use bows and will use my daggers only" she would just be childish and not from this world. If BioWare wants to portrait Isabella as such it is alright for me. Therefore I just say do whatever with Isabella as long as I can see good cleavage, side-ass, and thigs.


(And now I don't come back.)

[tmp7704]

Beerfish wrote...

I'm an excel guy, my co-worker over time could encourage me to learn more visual basic to make macros, use more in depth functions etc.  I know excel pretty good, I'm comfortable with it and it's likely I'd be willing to work on something I enjoy and have an aptitude for.

Now take my co-worker and have him tell me to create a new access database for him by friday.  I'm not a database guy, I don't have the aptitude or interest in databases.  If he/she tells me learn access over the next 6 months I'm going to whine  "But I can do the same stuff in Excelllllllll.  I hate access, I don;t know anything about access, why should I waste time on access when I can get better at excel!"

Let's be honest here -- you're making quite a rigged comparison, aren't you? The immediate demand part is especially unfair when i specifically talked about getting some training over multiple years the story supposedly lasts.

The basis you provide for how you'd whine against learning something new in such situation also don't exactly apply. Because the very point is to have the character learn something they can't already do with their existing experience and equipment.

It's logical that a companion would follow suggestions that are beneficial to them and follow their chosen career path at least to some extent.  It doesn't mean it is illogical for them to have a line in the sand as far as things you can suggest/make them do.

No, there's very little logic in having the companion obediently follow even the most stupid "suggestions" of the player but do it only in certain areas. Also you can't really try to provide in-game explanation of this process without it easily breaking down -- try to explain logically for example why duelist Isabela would be following advice of mage Hawke regarding her choice of talents when the mage Hawke doesn't even know how to hold two daggers at the same time, and as such shouldn't have such specific knowledge in the first place, let alone know what options are better. Or why would she dutifully put on and take off the same equipment dozen times in a row just because it's something the player happens to do mucking with the game UI. etc.