1044 réponses à ce sujet

[Melness]

moilami wrote...

Melness wrote...

but she would for sure be able to use bow and use it also when the situation calls for it.

The fact that she can't use a bow is an indicator that she doesn't know how to. And since it takes years to master archery, then you're pretty much wrong.

Hahaha, nobody talked about "mastering" anything. I talked about being able to use. If you would need years of training in order to be able to use bows, how the heck I learned it in one day and how all kind of peasant armies has learned it right away.

Bow is a basic tool for a rogue/warrior as much as is text editor for excel dude.

If she's not mastering it, then she can't do anything more precise than auto-attack full of misses.

Is your Hawke a day old? Then he didn't learn it in one day.

'Peasant Armies' as you so delicately put it actually had either very poor or no equipment at all. This means no armor, bows or anything fancy.

Warriors can't use bows in DA2.

Archers had to train daily from a very young age to be able to wield bows effectively.

Again, if completely changing Isabela's character to fit your plans is so important and actually makes sense. Then please explain the logic behind Blood Mage Wynne, Spirit Healer AND Blood Mage Whatever, Keeper Anders, Reaver Alistair and so on.

Modifié par Melness, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:45 .

[moilami]

AlanC9 wrote...

moilami wrote...
Bow is a basic tool for a rogue/warrior as much as is text editor for excel dude.

Not all ancient and medieval warriors learned ranged weapons, you know.

Reference?

If you say ancient and medieval warriors were not able to use ranged weapons I will laugh my arse off xD

[EmperorSahlertz]

moilami wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

moilami wrote...
Bow is a basic tool for a rogue/warrior as much as is text editor for excel dude.

Not all ancient and medieval warriors learned ranged weapons, you know.

Reference?

If you say ancient and medieval warriors were not able to use ranged weapons I will laugh my arse off xD

Do you actually believe that ALL warriors of medieval and ancient times knew how to use a bow effectively, let alone was able to? Really?

[Melness]

If you want to get techinical, it would require a week of training to wield a crossbow and years for handbows.

In fact, knights occasionaly carried their own crossbows as one of the strategies to counter enemy pike + crossbow/gunfire formations.

Modifié par Melness, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:53 .

[Felfenix]

moilami wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Melness wrote...

Isabela! Use a bow to kill them!

Wait, you're asking me to fire a weapon that I rarely/never used, have next to no practice with (..)

Whose fault is it that it is the weapon rarely/never used?

The game spans ten years, supposedly. During this time you --the player-- are given free reign of exactly what talents and tricks Isabela learns -- you decide how to spend her skill points, what jewellery she wears and what runes she gets for her gear.

And yet, being unable to make her pick up a bow and practice with it in her spare time during all these years is supposed to actually make sense. Go figure.

Mechanical limitations of the gameplay are one thing, but trying to justify them with logic for the most part just lead to madness. One that'll require drinking lot of poultices to cure.

Why can't I make Morrigan accept the Chantry's teachings? She's my party member to do with and develop however I please in any and every way, no?

Your comment was interesting so I came back for a moment.

Morri wont accept Chantry's teachings because it is religious question. It makes sense. But if pro killer would say "I totally refuse to use bows and will use my daggers only" she would just be childish and not from this world. If BioWare wants to portrait Isabella as such it is alright for me. Therefore I just say do whatever with Isabella as long as I can see good cleavage, side-ass, and thigs.


(And now I don't come back.)

But she's not some "pro-killer" hired mercenary assassin. She's a civilian. A swashbuckling rogue. A free spirit who's probably accompanying you out of self interest or whim. What's the sense in yelling at someone who's been training all her life and an expert in melee combat to suddenly master archery for no reason other than your whim? You may as well complain that you can't teach your mages to be as proficient with swords as your warriors.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We aren't talking about crossbows. Crossbows and handcannons could be used effectively with just a few hours of training (they may not hit targets, but they would be able to fire a volley). A bow took years of practice and conditioning to be able to shoot effectively.

[moilami]

Melness wrote...

moilami wrote...

Melness wrote...

but she would for sure be able to use bow and use it also when the situation calls for it.

The fact that she can't use a bow is an indicator that she doesn't know how to. And since it takes years to master archery, then you're pretty much wrong.

Hahaha, nobody talked about "mastering" anything. I talked about being able to use. If you would need years of training in order to be able to use bows, how the heck I learned it in one day and how all kind of peasant armies has learned it right away.

Bow is a basic tool for a rogue/warrior as much as is text editor for excel dude.

If she's not mastering it, then she can't do anything more precise than auto-attack full of misses.

Is your Hawke a day old? Then he didn't learn it in one day.

'Peasant Armies' as you so delicately put it actually had either very poor or no equipment at all. This means no armor, bows or anything fancy.

Warriors can't use bows in DA2.

Archers had to train daily from a very young age to be able to wield bows effectively.

Again, if completely changing Isabela's character to fit your plans is so important and actually makes sense. Then please explain the logic behind Blood Mage Wynne, Spirit Healer AND Blood Mage Whatever, Keeper Anders, Reaver Alistair and so on.

Hahaha, you wont want to get many "auto-attack" arrows on you in real. Specials were kinda rare, but rapid shot would count for increased fire speed, arrow of slaying would count for very skilled and accurate shot, training needed to get good hit%. Pinning shot would count shot on leg, training would help. But that darn sucky "auto-attack" that could count for whatever depending on luck.

Peasant armies are angry mobs revolting for whatever reason. In old times professional armies were standard.

I am not changing Isabella completely, please don't try put words in my mouth or else you bore me beyond reason. I have patience to say that to you exactly this one time. It is also totally same for me even if they would make a ninja of her as long as she have cleavage-sideass-thigs visible

(Warriors can't use bows? LOL. Ok.  This must be the True Right Way!)

[moilami]

Felfenix wrote...

moilami wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Melness wrote...

Isabela! Use a bow to kill them!

Wait, you're asking me to fire a weapon that I rarely/never used, have next to no practice with (..)

Whose fault is it that it is the weapon rarely/never used?

The game spans ten years, supposedly. During this time you --the player-- are given free reign of exactly what talents and tricks Isabela learns -- you decide how to spend her skill points, what jewellery she wears and what runes she gets for her gear.

And yet, being unable to make her pick up a bow and practice with it in her spare time during all these years is supposed to actually make sense. Go figure.

Mechanical limitations of the gameplay are one thing, but trying to justify them with logic for the most part just lead to madness. One that'll require drinking lot of poultices to cure.

Why can't I make Morrigan accept the Chantry's teachings? She's my party member to do with and develop however I please in any and every way, no?

Your comment was interesting so I came back for a moment.

Morri wont accept Chantry's teachings because it is religious question. It makes sense. But if pro killer would say "I totally refuse to use bows and will use my daggers only" she would just be childish and not from this world. If BioWare wants to portrait Isabella as such it is alright for me. Therefore I just say do whatever with Isabella as long as I can see good cleavage, side-ass, and thigs.


(And now I don't come back.)

But she's not some "pro-killer" hired mercenary assassin. She's a civilian. A swashbuckling rogue. A free spirit who's probably accompanying you out of self interest or whim. What's the sense in yelling at someone who's been training all her life and an expert in melee combat to suddenly master archery for no reason other than your whim? You may as well complain that you can't teach your mages to be as proficient with swords as your warriors.

Auto-reply for you missy xD

"I am not changing Isabella completely, please don't try put words in my
mouth or else you bore me beyond reason. I have patience to say that to
you exactly this one time. It is also totally same for me even if they
would make a ninja of her as long as she have cleavage-sideass-thigs
visible :)"

(Also I shall today play ME while waiting for adventures with my Dear Nab Isabella (what you wrote was interesting though, now I could RP I teach Isabella how to hold a bow in correct way and what to do with the arrow xD

So thx bb.

[Beerfish]

moilami wrote...
Mister now you are talking about comp nerdy careers and not killer careers. Comp nerdys use preferred tools  - though only as long as they have a job where they can use them. After that they use whatever tools the employer forces them to use. Isabella is not a comp nerd but pro killer. She would prefer to use daggers, no questions about that, but she would for sure be able to use bow and use it also when the situation calls for it.

Computer Nerdy examples are perfectly fine to use here because the principle is the same.  And I'm sure she could use a bow if you made her.  As long as she had a to hit penalty of -100 an attack rate 1/20th of normal.  No different than if you told me to create an access database right here and now because we need it.  I could try but I assure you I would fail.


Ok, those are your preferred tools. But if you would refuse to work with other tools you would be able to do something, you would be just bad, to say the least.

If you came up to me and said here is a brand new version of msaccess!  (aka a bow) I'd say great!  I don't need it, don't want it and will never use it but put it in my invnetory if you wish.


But to define Isabella don't use bows at all, and Maker only knows why, just portraits Isabella as moron. It seems to be part of new rooted "paper-scissors-stone-free_kill" game design. Mage kills warrior, rogue kills mage, warrior kills rogue, and everyone kills archer xD

In the new system you supposedly need to chose "right skillset for the job" instead of chosing your favorite persons and get the job done by any means. I though know I will faceroll the game through with favorite persons and enjoy of the increased challenge in the same time.

And Isabella does not have the skillset or the will to be an archer.  If she did she would be one once you meet her but she isn't obviously she either dedicated are her time to dueling to become so awesome and didn;t have time to use a bow or it simply did not interest her.  You can be a great athlete and prefer to play hockey over football.  sure you may have the physical attributes to play football but you are much better at hockey and don;t like football.

Edit: Over and out from my part. This thread bores me.

LOL, the ironing is delicious with this last comment of yours.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I really just don't see why you want her to equip a bow, ever. She can probably handle any situation with her knives, and yet, out of some form of vanity from your side, you want her to gimp herself.

[tmp7704]

Melness wrote...

If Isabela is a dual wielder, it is her character, her choice. It is no different than Wynne despising Blood Magic and the Player choosing it as her second specialization makes no sense.

The choice already made and a choice that can be made are two different things. Wynne's choice "as character" was to pick spirit healer as a spec, similar how Isabela picked the daggers. But it doesn't physically prevent her from picking blood magic (or in Isabela's case the bow) as another area of experience.

Whether she likes it is another matter entirely, but i don't think this should be used as basis to rule the possibility out come hell or high water -- doing something even against our beliefs is a theme quite frequently explored in these RPGs after all.

Going with that logic, my Mage Hawke could practice with an armor and a bow over the years and multi-class over every class avaiable!

Yes; if someone spent years practicing with bow and other weapons, they would in all likeliness get pretty good at it. No matter what knowledge they'd possess otherwise.

We both realize classes are artificial construct, and one that actually goes against the logic, i hope?

Explain me your logic behind Blood Mage Wynne, Legionnaire Scout Nathaniel, Keeper Anders, Spirit Healer and Blood Mage Whatever, Spirit Warrior/Reaver Sten, Bard Zevran and so on. If you manage to do so, then perhaps I'll accept you being able to completely change someone's character to fit your plans.

Nothing prevents each of them from learning these things. Your individual interpretation of their character, backstory and/or circumstances may prevent you from making such decision, but these interpretations are well, individual.

[Beerfish]

tmp7704 wrote...


Let's be honest here -- you're making quite a rigged comparison, aren't you? The immediate demand part is especially unfair when i specifically talked about getting some training over multiple years the story supposedly lasts.

No I made a short term answer and a long term answer.  Short term as in there is no reason you should be able to give her a bow right now in game and expect her to equip and use it.  Long term for the reasons I stated.  to learn something you require the will and the motivation and the reason.  If any of those are missing at best you are going to be dragging a person kicking and screaming into learning something they don't want and will probably not be good at.  Can Isabella learn how to use a bow over a few years?  Probably yes, she has the high dex.  Does she want to?  No.  Does she see a valid reason to do so?  Probably not.


No, there's very little logic in having the companion obediently follow even the most stupid "suggestions" of the player but do it only in certain areas. Also you can't really try to provide in-game explanation of this process without it easily breaking down -- try to explain logically for example why duelist Isabela would be following advice of mage Hawke regarding her choice of talents when the mage Hawke doesn't even know how to hold two daggers at the same time, and as such shouldn't have such specific knowledge in the first place, let alone know what options are better. Or why would she dutifully put on and take off the same equipment dozen times in a row just because it's something the player happens to do mucking with the game UI. etc.

My boss or coworker doesn't have to be an expert in Excel to encourage me to learn things in a certain area of excel.  Boss "I need to find a way to automate this process."  Me "That can be done if I learn visualbasic, that's what I'll do."  The player has some pull over the companions whether it is because the companion loves him, fears him, thinks he is a great leader or just feels the overall quest is important enough.  Your argument seems to be that you have to allow total customization or none at all.  I don't think that is the case and partial customization has been the standard in many games.  As I said to Sylvius, want total customization?  Play Icewind Dale, a super fun game where you create all of the companions yourself, but don't expect them to have any kind of personality.  You can also go totally in the opposite direction and allow no customization at all, something players hate even more.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Melness wrote...
If she's not mastering it, then she can't do anything more precise than auto-attack full of misses.

Is your Hawke a day old? Then he didn't learn it in one day.

'Peasant Armies' as you so delicately put it actually had either very poor or no equipment at all. This means no armor, bows or anything fancy.

Warriors can't use bows in DA2.

Archers had to train daily from a very young age to be able to wield bows effectively.

Again, if completely changing Isabela's character to fit your plans is so important and actually makes sense. Then please explain the logic behind Blood Mage Wynne, Spirit Healer AND Blood Mage Whatever, Keeper Anders, Reaver Alistair and so on.

I'm going to take a crack at your Specialization examples there.

Blood Mage Wynne makes no sense. I will not argue otherwise. She is too set in her position against blood magic that attempting to teach it to her is absurd.

Spirit Healer/Blood Mage is a very fun character concept I've played with a lot, though I suppose it hinges on the spirit being unable or unwilling to leave after bonding to the character. But if the spirit could leave, there's no justification ever for a Spirit Healer bonded to a spirit with an ideology opposed to the character.

Keeper Anders is the Warden teaching Anders Keeper magic he's somehow learned because s/he felt having a(nother) mage with those abilities would be beneficial.

Reaver Alistair is again, taught by the Warden who has gained the secrets of those abilities. He may be uneasy using them, but anything to stop the Blight, short of sparing the man who destroyed the Wardens.

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I really just don't see why you want her to equip a bow, ever. She can probably handle any situation with her knives, and yet, out of some form of vanity from your side, you want her to gimp herself.

How about some situations calling for a ranged attack?  How is that vanity?

[AlanC9]

tmp7704 wrote...

Explain me your logic behind Blood Mage Wynne, Legionnaire Scout Nathaniel, Keeper Anders, Spirit Healer and Blood Mage Whatever, Spirit Warrior/Reaver Sten, Bard Zevran and so on. If you manage to do so, then perhaps I'll accept you being able to completely change someone's character to fit your plans.

Nothing prevents each of them from learning these things. Your individual interpretation of their character, backstory and/or circumstances may prevent you from making such decision, but these interpretations are well, individual.

Except now it's now the writer's interpretation that governs the character, not the player's -- which, of course, is what this thread is about. I presume the sort of thing mentioned above won't happen in DA2 any more than bow-wielding Izzy will happen.

Personally, I'm happy with losing some control over NPCs; I don't particularly want that kind of control in the first place, and I like games where I have to make suboptimal party combinations work.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

Addai67 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I really just don't see why you want her to equip a bow, ever. She can probably handle any situation with her knives, and yet, out of some form of vanity from your side, you want her to gimp herself.

How about some situations calling for a ranged attack?  How is that vanity?

Because there are other party members who DO specialize in ranged attacks, yet you try and force one the party members who don't, to gimp herself.

[Blastback]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I really just don't see why you want her to equip a bow, ever. She can probably handle any situation with her knives, and yet, out of some form of vanity from your side, you want her to gimp herself.

How about some situations calling for a ranged attack?  How is that vanity?

Because there are other party members who DO specialize in ranged attacks, yet you try and force one the party members who don't, to gimp herself.

It's not about vanity, it's about past experiances shaping expectations.  In Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, KotOR, and Origins, you could control what your party members used and how they fought, even if it went against the inteded use of the charater.  Alot of us grew up with this feature, and expected to see it continue, we liked it.  It wasn't about Role Playing per say, it was about the game management and tactics and stuff. 

[AlanC9]

We grew up with that in BG? D&D classes are quite defined, and I'm pretty sure they expected you to dual Imoen to mage from the start.

[Blastback]

AlanC9 wrote...

We grew up with that in BG? D&D classes are quite defined, and I'm pretty sure they expected you to dual Imoen to mage from the start.

But you could use Imoen in both melee and ranged as a thief.  And take Keldorn.  Meant to use two handed swords.  But i could equip him with a crossbow, a halbred, even mace and shield. 

[Ryzaki]

I'm inclined to believe Isabela's an intelligent enough woman to be well versed in a multitude of weapons because you ever know when you'll have to use something on hand. Especially on a ship that can crash and leave you with nothing but the clothes on your back on a hostile environment.

Unless of course she is really shortsighted and arrogant.

One would wonder how she managd to live so long in that case.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:43 .

[moilami]

AlanC9 wrote...

We grew up with that in BG? D&D classes are quite defined, and I'm pretty sure they expected you to dual Imoen to mage from the start.

Eeew, I have never ever dualed Imoen and wont ever do it. Glad they did not force dualing of Imoen like they did in BG2!!!!! Pretty much lost interest on BG2 when I saw Imoen dualed. And still haven't finished it!

[Melness]

Spirit Healer/Blood Mage is a very fun character concept I've played with a lot, though I suppose it hinges on the spirit being unable or unwilling to leave after bonding to the character. But if the spirit could leave, there's no justification ever for a Spirit Healer bonded to a spirit with an ideology opposed to the character.

A Spirit Healer isnt bound to any spirit, he simply call upon energies that spirits may or may not grant. Would a spirit grant energies to a spellcaster who practices demonology?

Keeper Anders is the Warden teaching Anders Keeper magic he's somehow learned because s/he felt having a(nother) mage with those abilities would be beneficial.

I mentioned the Keeper Anders because, like the Spirit Healer, it is an specialization that should be learned through special means instead of being read from a book, rare or not. Making any explanation about Anders or even the Warden learning it a bit more than just a stretch.

Reaver Alistair is again, taught by the Warden who has gained the secrets of those abilities. He may be uneasy using them, but anything to stop the Blight, short of sparing the man who destroyed the Wardens.

Alistair wouldn't pick on the Reaver specialization because it comes from demons the same way Wynne wouldn't pick Blood Magic.

It wasn't about Role Playing

You're playing the wrong genre, I say.

I'm inclined to believe Isabela's an intelligent enough woman to be well versed in a multitude of weapons because you ever know when you'll have to use something on hand.

The fact that Isabela cannot be equipped with a bow is an indicator that she can't wield it. After all, it takes years or experience to be adept to archery.

Sure, it is not a necessary explanation but this limitation sure doesn't point to anything else.

Modifié par Melness, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:43 .

[AlanC9]

If you mean that D&D had different class restrictions from DA2, sure. But it was quite restricted in its own way.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blastback wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

We grew up with that in BG? D&D classes are quite defined, and I'm pretty sure they expected you to dual Imoen to mage from the start.

But you could use Imoen in both melee and ranged as a thief.  And take Keldorn.  Meant to use two handed swords.  But i could equip him with a crossbow, a halbred, even mace and shield. 

All of which, just doesn't make sense from a character point of view. BioWare has made away with that "feature" (I hardly think it even qualified as a feature to begin with), in favor of more identified characters.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:44 .

[Blastback]

AlanC9 wrote...

If you mean that D&D had different class restrictions from DA2, sure. But it was quite restricted in its own way.

Not arguing that.  But I think it was less restictive.  I'm not advocating making someone who is desinged to specialise in melee into a ranged specialist.  Just for them to have options outside a single specialty.  If my ranged charater dies and I need someone to pick up the slack, I think there should be that option.