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[JamesX]

Abominations only occure if a mage gets possessed. You cannot have an Non-mage that can turn into abomination.



Mages are all time bombs waiting to explode. That is a fact. Some may never slip and show weakness for a Demon to exploit, but they are never immune from the possibility. And the fact is that mages turn abomination with dangerous frequency. You can say some abominations are not dangerous, and you are right. But by far majority of abominations seems dangerous.



The only way to contain abomination is to contain its source. Just like the easiest way to contain a plague is to contain its carriers. It is already a miracle that mages are allowed to form the circle instead of being killed upon discovery.



You can argue that disease is part of life, there for it must be good or else the maker would not have allowed it. There for we should let it ran rampant and don't even bother to alleviate some of the dangers of it. Does that sound reasonable to anyone with common sense?

[Ivers0803]

JamesX wrote...

Abominations only occure if a mage gets possessed. You cannot have an Non-mage that can turn into abomination.

 
So what was Sophia Dryden?

[atheelogos]

SgtElias wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

Outside of nobility, I can hardly think of people more well off than the mages. An idle lifestyle should you want it so, no worry for tomorrow, taken care of for the rest of your life, protected, with a plenty of stimulus offered to satisfy even the most active of minds. Sure, you have to give up some things in life if you happen to be born a mage, but considering the absurd amount of benefits (that most others can only dream of) you get in return, I would seriously think it a bargain.

However, I can scarcely think of a place I'd be less happy, and I would, literally, die before I let anyone take my children from me, religious organization or no.

Yes that reminds me of something we often forget. You are part of the Chantry whether you like it or not. They force you to accept their laws, beliefs, and ethics.

So if you say to one of their priests "hey if that church works for you thats cool, but those beliefs aren't for me" They'll come back to you later with armed Templars.

If your a mage its either convert or die? No one in their right mind can say that converting with the sword is ethical.

[JamesX]

Ivers0803 wrote...

JamesX wrote...

Abominations only occure if a mage gets possessed. You cannot have an Non-mage that can turn into abomination.

 
So what was Sophia Dryden?

Possessed Corpse

[EmperorSahlertz]

Abominations only occur when a demon possess a mage, otherwise it is just one run-of-the-mill possession.
The reason Abominations are so dangerous, is because they combine the power of a demon with an unshackled mage. Whereas a possessed is only as strong as the demon possessing it.

atheelogos wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

Outside of nobility, I can hardly think of people more well off than the mages. An idle lifestyle should you want it so, no worry for tomorrow, taken care of for the rest of your life, protected, with a plenty of stimulus offered to satisfy even the most active of minds. Sure, you have to give up some things in life if you happen to be born a mage, but considering the absurd amount of benefits (that most others can only dream of) you get in return, I would seriously think it a bargain.

However, I can scarcely think of a place I'd be less happy, and I would, literally, die before I let anyone take my children from me, religious organization or no.

Yes that reminds me of something we often forget. You are part of the Chantry whether you like it or not. They force you to accept their laws, beliefs, and ethics.

So if you say to one of their priests "hey if that church works for you thats cool, but those beliefs aren't for me" They'll come back to you later with armed Templars.

If your a mage its either convert or die? No one in their right mind can say that converting with the sword is ethical.

They aren't forcing it on you. You are free to enter the Korcari wilds any time you want. But as long as you live on their territory, it is their right to at least try and convert you.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 18 janvier 2011 - 10:12 .

[NKKKK]

HURR DURR LOOK AT ME BEING A PRAGMATIST IN A GAME HURR DURR

[Morroian]

JamesX wrote...

Mages are all time bombs waiting to explode. That is a fact. Some may never slip and show weakness for a Demon to exploit, but they are never immune from the possibility. And the fact is that mages turn abomination with dangerous frequency. 

Don't seem to in Rivain or Tevinter from what we can gather.

JamesX wrote...
The only way to contain abomination is to contain its source. Just like the easiest way to contain a plague is to contain its carriers. It is already a miracle that mages are allowed to form the circle instead of being killed upon discovery.

Crap, alternatives have been proposed, and we have the example of Rivain where relatively free mages consort with spirits. Its possible to still impose education and regulation on mages without restricting their freedom as much.  

[Wyndham711]

SgtElias wrote...

Not that I have a problem with how you're creating or playing your characters; more power to you. My only point was that a blanket statement of "it's a bargain" does not take into account many variables, largest of which is the fact that what "a bargain" is varries greatly depending on the individual.

Is it better than the alienage? Almost certainly. However, I can scarcely think of a place I'd be less happy, and I would, literally, die before I let anyone take my children from me, religious organization or no.

Certainly it does vary, as I stated in my post. I can appreciate the notion that to many having a family can be by far the greatest goal in life, and to them the tower life would most probably be the least pleasing experience. However knowing how harsh life could be in the medieval society, I would think in a great many situations a parent would be glad if a Tower like that of Ferelden's accepted their child.

There he/she would have opportunities and privileges an average commoner could never even dream of, with little to no obligatory effort on their own part. Instead of constantly worrying about failing crops, ensuing famine, rampaging bandits etc, my mage child would have the rare possibility of getting to live a protected, stable and highly educated life in the tutelage of many wise minds.

I think Finn is the one worthy of most admiration - a man who gave proper value to his luck and truly saw what a privileged life he actually led.

[SgtElias]

JamesX wrote...

The only way to contain abomination is to contain its source. Just like the easiest way to contain a plague is to contain its carriers. It is already a miracle that mages are allowed to form the circle instead of being killed upon discovery.

I think the argument from most mage sympathizers (like myself) is that there's a difference between containing a threat and repressing innocent people. Andraste's flaming sword, I say let the mages live seperately. Let them train their children, and teach themselves how to be safe.

I just don't think that letting the Chantry be in charge entirely is a good idea. Right or wrong, the Chantry has it's own interests at heart; as Duncan said, they merely tolerate magic. Asking to be taken out of the hands of an organization that obviously dislikes them isn't such an odd request.

[atheelogos]

JamesX wrote...

Mages are all time bombs waiting to explode. That is a fact.

You can argue that disease is part of life, there for it must be good or else the maker would not have allowed it. There for we should let it ran rampant and don't even bother to alleviate some of the dangers of it. Does that sound reasonable to anyone with common sense?

1. Yes mages are time bombs, but I would argue everyone is a potential time bomb, especially nobles. We shouldn't treat people as if that bomb will inevitably go off. If you always assume it will then that touches on what I said earlier about convicting people on the fact that they could have comitted a crime and not on whether they did.

2. Treating or comparing people to a desease is a slippery slope my friend.

[Wyndham711]

atheelogos wrote...

No one in their right mind can say that converting with the sword is ethical.

If one believes that spreading the faith to the four corners of the world and making it believed by everyone a) is the Maker's will, and will trigger the Maker's return, ensuring eternal happiness for everyone - then conversion by the sword is indeed a justified act, not to mention a logical one. I don't see any solid reason for the subjects of the Chantry to not believe that to be true.

[atheelogos]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Abominations only occur when a demon possess a mage, otherwise it is just one run-of-the-mill possession.
The reason Abominations are so dangerous, is because they combine the power of a demon with an unshackled mage. Whereas a possessed is only as strong as the demon possessing it.

atheelogos wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

Outside of nobility, I can hardly think of people more well off than the mages. An idle lifestyle should you want it so, no worry for tomorrow, taken care of for the rest of your life, protected, with a plenty of stimulus offered to satisfy even the most active of minds. Sure, you have to give up some things in life if you happen to be born a mage, but considering the absurd amount of benefits (that most others can only dream of) you get in return, I would seriously think it a bargain.

However, I can scarcely think of a place I'd be less happy, and I would, literally, die before I let anyone take my children from me, religious organization or no.

Yes that reminds me of something we often forget. You are part of the Chantry whether you like it or not. They force you to accept their laws, beliefs, and ethics.

So if you say to one of their priests "hey if that church works for you thats cool, but those beliefs aren't for me" They'll come back to you later with armed Templars.

If your a mage its either convert or die? No one in their right mind can say that converting with the sword is ethical.

But as long as you live on their territory, it is their right to at least try and convert you.

If they wish to spread they're faith in a peaceful manner then that's their prerogative. I don't mind them talking about it to other people, but if your the average mage you are forced to live the way they tell you. Its either that or run your whole life.

Modifié par atheelogos, 18 janvier 2011 - 10:23 .

[atheelogos]

Wyndham711 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

No one in their right mind can say that converting with the sword is ethical.

 I don't see any solid reason for the subjects of the Chantry to not believe that to be true.

Yes your right. In the Dragon Age universe that logic makes sense for the Chantry, but thats not what I meant. I was talking about the fans here in real life, but that's my fault for not adding the context.

[Heimdall]

atheelogos wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

No one in their right mind can say that converting with the sword is ethical.

 I don't see any solid reason for the subjects of the Chantry to not believe that to be true.

Yes your right. In the Dragon Age universe that logic makes sense for the Chantry, but thats not what I meant. I was talking about the fans here in real life, but that's my fault for not adding the context.

I don't think anyone actually does, unless those fans really do believe that if the chantry succeeds the Maker will return to Thedas

[atheelogos]

SgtElias wrote...

JamesX wrote...

The only way to contain abomination is to contain its source. Just like the easiest way to contain a plague is to contain its carriers. It is already a miracle that mages are allowed to form the circle instead of being killed upon discovery.

I think the argument from most mage sympathizers (like myself) is that there's a difference between containing a threat and repressing innocent people. Andraste's flaming sword, I say let the mages live seperately. Let them train their children, and teach themselves how to be safe.

I just don't think that letting the Chantry be in charge entirely is a good idea. Right or wrong, the Chantry has it's own interests at heart; as Duncan said, they merely tolerate magic. Asking to be taken out of the hands of an organization that obviously dislikes them isn't such an odd request.

Everything you just said is music to my ears.<3 Especially the "there's a difference between containing a threat and repressing innocent people" part

[SgtElias]

Wyndham711 wrote...

There he/she would have opportunities and privileges an average commoner could never even dream of, with little to no obligatory effort on their own part. Instead of constantly worrying about failing crops, ensuing famine, rampaging bandits etc, my mage child would have the rare possibility of getting to live a protected, stable and highly educated life in the tutelage of many wise minds.

I think Finn is the one worthy of most admiration - a man who gave proper value to his luck and truly saw what a privileged life he actually led.

And while also there, s/he would also be unable to leave, subjected to possibly lethal tests, and be at the constant mercy of an organization that hates them for existing.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective.

I loved Finn! He was great. And it was nice to hear that he was still in contact with his parents. Although they must either have money or live quite close by; in a time period when almost no one ever traveled, because it was costly and time-consuming, I can't imagine many mages hailing from Gwaren are still in contact with their parents.

[atheelogos]

Lord Aesir wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

No one in their right mind can say that converting with the sword is ethical.

 I don't see any solid reason for the subjects of the Chantry to not believe that to be true.

Yes your right. In the Dragon Age universe that logic makes sense for the Chantry, but thats not what I meant. I was talking about the fans here in real life, but that's my fault for not adding the context.

I don't think anyone actually does, unless those fans really do believe that if the chantry succeeds the Maker will return to Thedas

^Also a good point.

[SgtElias]

atheelogos wrote...
]Everything you just said is music to my ears.<3 Especially the "there's a difference between containing a threat and repressing innocent people" part

I do what I can.

[Seagloom]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I don't think anyone actually does, unless those fans really do believe that if the chantry succeeds the Maker will return to Thedas.

The Chantry as a whole definitely has corruption festering in it--most likely in its upper echelons. There is undoubtedly corrupt middle management as well. I just think not every rank and file member is out to serve a hidden, selfish agenda. I also think that there is no other viable alternative to policing mages. An organization with a few bad eggs keeping order is better than no order at all. If David Gaider's quotes in the previous page are any indication, life before mage circles was far from idyllic for either enchanters or mundanes.

Thedas is a thoroughly messed up place, however, and there is not a single organization or faction I would consider ideal. Every group, nation, and government is deeply flawed in some way; including the Chantry. It is simply a matter of picking and choosing which flaws one is willing to put up with to suit their opinions.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 janvier 2011 - 10:41 .

[SgtElias]

Seagloom wrote...

 I also think that there is no other viable alternative to policing mages. An organization with a few bad eggs keeping order is better than no order at all. If David Gaider's quotes in the previous page are any indication, life before mage circles was far from idyllic for either enchanters or mundanes.

I disagree, but that's one of the reasons I'm so excited for Dragon Age 2; I wonder what sort of choices we'll have to make about this very subject?

I'm so playing a mage. :happy:

[Morroian]

SgtElias wrote...

And while also there, s/he would also be unable to leave, subjected to possibly lethal tests, and be at the constant mercy of an organization that hates them for existing.

With very few checks and balances on their treatment of mages. I imagine life in the Ferelden tower is better than most alternatives cause Gregoir is probably more lenient than most but he could be more of a dictator if he wanted as the epilogue slide relating to Cullen shows. 

Plus there's the whole being made tranquil on nothing more than suspicion.

[Seagloom]

SgtElias wrote...

I disagree, but that's one of the reasons I'm so excited for Dragon Age 2; I wonder what sort of choices we'll have to make about this very subject?

I'm so playing a mage. :happy:

What do you propose as an alternative? If the circle system used by the Chantry and Tevinter Archons is unacceptable, what would you put in its place? Blanket freedom is not a realistic option considering David Gaider's words: "That is, of course, ignoring the fact that the world back then was a much more dangerous place. An abomination tearing up the countryside was simply something that happened and needed to be dealt with."

I agree that in an ideal scenario it would be better not to oppress people, but this is not an ideal scenario. Setting mages free is tantamount to doing nothing about the abomination question, and apparently that has not worked out well in the past. I usually play mages too; and not loyalist mages. Quite the contrary. However, what my character in the game believes and what I do are not always related. When I play, I role-play from my character's perspective. When I debate I use my own; and from my own point of view? That is some scary crap. If mages were real, I would be terrified of what they could do to me and my loved ones, whether intentionally or by accident. I would want a person who at any time could become an unstoppable monster to be far away from me. (Unstoppable by my standards. I am not a super warrior or ninja rogue capable of stopping a freakish monster. I am just a regular person. A fragile, run of the mill person.)

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:02 .

[Huntress]

HiroVoid wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

There was a really intresting discusion in the Meredith thread before it go compleatly of track with talk about Mages should be ruling the world and blowing up things for fun.
I would really want that discusion to continue so I started this thread. I hope some Devs vill stop by and give their take on the mather as well.


As I se it, the problem isn't that the Mage's are under guard because they can be dangerus and Im not just talking about Blood Magic. They can't compleatly controll what can happen to them.

The
problem, as I se it, is the way the Templars and the Chantry treat the
Mages with hate and disgust as if they where monsters. Like it was the
Mage's fault that he/she was born a Mage.
And that they are forbidden to have a family.

If
Templars where more as protectors then jailers there would not be as big of a
problem. I don't thin Mage's would rebell or run away if they could
live there own life with Templars guarding them. Its the misstreatment
and the fact that they are held in a Tower that makes them act up.

And
it comes down to being the Chantrys fault because they misstreat the
Templars (making them addicts) who themseves take it out on the Mages.

Should
the Mages be on their own? No. Even Anders knows that would be a big
problem (infact he say's just that). But they should not be treated like
evil monsters.

What do you think?

The Chantry need's people in fear, whats better than Mages?  ( for now)
Not one but a mage really knows whats going on  him/herself, If magic was so bad, then the maker would have removed the first time it manifested on his creation, Life is magic by itself. Anyone can make good/evil choices and not everyone is a mage.

Not all mages are evil, Anders, Morrigan, Merril and so many others are testament that magic can also be very good for the people.

The Chantry want one thing, everyone who doens't agree with them be put down, they made war with the dalish, they will make war with the dwarve's, after this they will make war with anyhting also they find not going by the chantry rules.

Thedas need more god's to manifest themselves or make a new god, if you ask me.

Mages need to be free from the chantry!

I thought the Dalish attacked them first just liked they attacked the barbarians in Ferelden first.

I thought the Dalish just wanted to be left alone with their own god's and didn't give a rat about the maker and chantry.

The chantry took that as a war cause and destroy them. The barbarian attacked Thedas just not the elves or humans.
The barbarians came on ships from across the sea to invade, not to make friends with elves or humans.

[Reaverwind]

Lord Aesir wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Yes your right. In the Dragon Age universe that logic makes sense for the Chantry, but thats not what I meant. I was talking about the fans here in real life, but that's my fault for not adding the context.

I don't think anyone actually does, unless those fans really do believe that if the chantry succeeds the Maker will return to Thedas

You mean he won't? 

[JamesX]

atheelogos wrote...

1. Yes mages are time bombs, but I would argue everyone is a potential time bomb, especially nobles. We shouldn't treat people as if that bomb will inevitably go off. If you always assume it will then that touches on what I said earlier about convicting people on the fact that they could have comitted a crime and not on whether they did.

2. Treating or comparing people to a desease is a slippery slope my friend.

Having Magical Power is no different than being born with extra eye, or stronger muscles, or stronger mind.  It is no different than whatever else mutation one can get.  Is it a disease?  It isn't.  Is it like a disease? sort of.

I don't see why people would want to tip toe around the issue.

As for innocence, if I strap a random time bomb to a person's body that cannot be removed except via lobotomy, is that person innocent?  Should that person be kept seperate from crowds of people?  Or because he has that bomb strapped to his back, at no fault of his own, he then should be ok walking "free" and mingling with crowds without any supervision or safe guards?

If you want to talk about innocence, what about the innocent victims?  What about the innocence of those who had no choice that the mage is weak willed open gate for the forces of the fade?  They have even less "fault"/"Guilt" than the mage that turned into abominations.

The World of Dragon Age is not meant to be a happy place, and the Lore/World Design is focused to that aspect.  To try to impose rationality that works in an fair world on one that is Dark Fantasy is a bad idea.  Might want to read Warhammer 40k universe and get a true sense of what DA fade may be based on.

In that universe, One Psyker (psonically sensitive person that can be used as portal by god like evil enties in a immaterial dimension parallel with reality) can tear open the barrier between the Warp (Immaterial dimenson) and Reality and can cause billions up on billions of lives and plummet entire star systems into the Warp.

While the Abominations in the game are not as dangerous (but I think that is just necessary for balancing of the story, the fluff paints them as far more dangerous than they are represented in game) the parallel is there.

Mage MUST be regulated.  They cannot be allowed to enjoy "freedom" like people who are not time bombs.  It might not be pretty or righteous, but it is necessary.  An mage can turn at any time, there for they need to be monitored constantly.  They have the option of becoming tranquile, and if they chose not to take that option then they would have to settle for the limitation.

Just like if a person is delusional he needs to be monitored.  If a person have a psychotic temper he also needs to be monitored.  If they can make this monitoring unobtrusive than great, if not then that is unfortunate.  Because it is necessary.

Some of you might think of this as Biased, and it is.  But life is not fair, and we make the best of it.

The whole Apostate system seems to suggest that they don't need to be regulated, since we have far more destruction (in game) from Circle Mages turned Abomination than Apostates, I think that is more because of bad writing or necessary limitation because it is a computer game and not a novel series like Wheel of Time.

Modifié par JamesX, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:42 .