1869 Antworten in diesem Thema

[Beerfish]

People like to hammer away at the Chantry and the Templars and many of the Mages in these discussions but it comes down to how average Joe peasant or lord thinks on the subject. The average Joe peasant is afraid of a mage either because of tales he/she has been told or by witnessing what happens when a Mage goes wrong.



I view Mages as lawyers. People love to make comments and or jokes about lawyers and they have a bad rep among many. The lawyers themselves don't understand why people slag them as a whole when only a few rotten apples are out there. The lawyers themselves do a very poor job of policing themselves or at the very least making sure the public knows that most of them are good and honourable.



If the Mages want to have freedoms and not be hated by the common folk it would be they who were mage hunters not templars. However so far in the DA universe and indeed on these forums people sticking up for the mages just want that freedom and are totally ignoring the legit concern about one of them becoming an abomination.

[Thunderfox]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying at all? I'm not talking about putting mages in charge I'm pointing to the fact that the Tevinter have free mages running around their country and they have rituals in place to ensure that they don't become Abominations.

To the poster who asked how do we know there arn't abominations in Tevinter?... Did you not see Uldren? Do you really think if there were full fledged abominations like him in that country that they wouldn't be able to cross a simple border into another country?

I imagine Tevinter is pretty isolationist. And Nobody really likes the Imperium, not Orlais, not Ferelden, not the Qunari....

[Heimdall]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying at all? I'm not talking about putting mages in charge I'm pointing to the fact that the Tevinter have free mages running around their country and they have rituals in place to ensure that they don't become Abominations.

To the poster who asked how do we know there arn't abominations in Tevinter?... Did you not see Uldren? Do you really think if there were full fledged abominations like him in that country that they wouldn't be able to cross a simple border into another country?

You mean capable of perfectly mimicing human form...  sure and nobody would ever know about it.  Letting all mages go about without having them go through something like the Harrowing would really not be a good idea though and even then they can do stupid things like say... starting the first Blight?

Nobody is strictly saying the Mages need to be controlled by the chantry but many like myself believe they need to be watched and contained until properly prepared and trained.  The Templars and the Chantry just go too far.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying at all? I'm not talking about putting mages in charge I'm pointing to the fact that the Tevinter have free mages running around their country and they have rituals in place to ensure that they don't become Abominations.

They have? Can you please point where this is stated? I fear I must have missed it.

You know the Harrowing that every Circle has to make sure that a mage has the fortitude to resist a demon in the Fade? Do you know where the Chantry got that idea from? Yep, the Harrowing was invented by the Tevinter mages to prevent their people from becoming Abominations. Figuring their society is based around mages and they'd need all their mages sane they probably have several Harrowing type rituals besides the one that the Chantry barrowed.

[Dhiro]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying at all? I'm not talking about putting mages in charge I'm pointing to the fact that the Tevinter have free mages running around their country and they have rituals in place to ensure that they don't become Abominations.

They have? Can you please point where this is stated? I fear I must have missed it.

You know the Harrowing that every Circle has to make sure that a mage has the fortitude to resist a demon in the Fade? Do you know where the Chantry got that idea from? Yep, the Harrowing was invented by the Tevinter mages to prevent their people from becoming Abominations. Figuring their society is based around mages and they'd need all their mages sane they probably have several Harrowing type rituals besides the one that the Chantry barrowed.

...? That's hardly a fact.

[Eclipse_9990]

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****.. That and they're fighting off the Qunari..Successfully I might add.
Tevinter is still extremely powerful despite all this stuff..Arguably more powerful than the other nations.. 

[Ziggeh]

Beerfish wrote...

it would be they who were mage hunters not templars.

Watching the watchmen problem. Part of the nature of the Circle is placing them mages in a position where they have little to be manipulated with, hence the family restrictions. Responsibilties like that, authority, would positively increase the risks.

[Heimdall]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
You know the Harrowing that every Circle has to make sure that a mage has the fortitude to resist a demon in the Fade? Do you know where the Chantry got that idea from? Yep, the Harrowing was invented by the Tevinter mages to prevent their people from becoming Abominations. Figuring their society is based around mages and they'd need all their mages sane they probably have several Harrowing type rituals besides the one that the Chantry barrowed.

Yeah and we know it isn't full proof, Uldred went through a harrowing too.

[Ziggeh]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****..

And the whole Blight thing. The fact is we don't know much about the empire, they were certainly influenced by demons, if not actively controlled by them. I can't imagine it was all sunshine and roses if a demon plans on feeding off you.

[Dhiro]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****.. That and they're fighting off the Qunari..Successfully I might add.
Tevinter is still extremely powerful despite all this stuff..Arguably more powerful than the other nations.. 

Beside the fact that the Teviter Imperium was a nation governed by magisters that opressed everyone?

Also, Blood Magic was common in Tevinter Imperium. Hmm, remember how our Warden learn Blood Magic? Demon.

Bearbeitet von Dhiro, 17 Januar 2011 - 09:18 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying at all? I'm not talking about putting mages in charge I'm pointing to the fact that the Tevinter have free mages running around their country and they have rituals in place to ensure that they don't become Abominations.

To the poster who asked how do we know there arn't abominations in Tevinter?... Did you not see Uldren? Do you really think if there were full fledged abominations like him in that country that they wouldn't be able to cross a simple border into another country?

You mean capable of perfectly mimicing human form...  sure and nobody would ever know about it.  Letting all mages go about without having them go through something like the Harrowing would really not be a good idea though and even then they can do stupid things like say... starting the first Blight?

Nobody is strictly saying the Mages need to be controlled by the chantry but many like myself believe they need to be watched and contained until properly prepared and trained.  The Templars and the Chantry just go too far.

Their entire society is based around mages they wouldn't want their population to become power mad creatures like Uldren any more than we would. The Harrowing is one of probably many other ways to make sure such things happen.  If you want to believe that the Tevinter is full of Uldreds than you can go ahead but the fact they have had a stable government for centruies if not a millenia tend to say no their government doens't have many abominations in it.

As for the Blight....Really? You're going to buy the Chantry's propaganda about that? The truth is no one truly knows right now what caused the Blights or what made the Darkspawn.

[Thoron Draugohtar]

The problem for me(if I were a mage) is not the tests you must pass, it is the discrimination of mages from the mass populace which I believe is the problem. Sure the Chantry plays a large role in anti-mage propaganda but even still, Templars like Gregor have been seen to acknowledge mages as people.



Jowan was told he was demonic by his mother while Wynne was locked in a barn. etc.

[Beerfish]

Ziggeh wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

it would be they who were mage hunters not templars.

Watching the watchmen problem. Part of the nature of the Circle is placing them mages in a position where they have little to be manipulated with, hence the family restrictions. Responsibilties like that, authority, would positively increase the risks.

That's why my analogy to the lawyers.  Watching the watchman only works if the watchman show themselves to be adequately diligent.  Because the Mages don't seem to want to do this then it is up to others.

[Ziggeh]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Yeah and we know it isn't full proof, Uldred went through a harrowing too.

Indeed, mental fortiitude (itself not a constant) clearly isn't the final word on the matter.

Bearbeitet von Ziggeh, 17 Januar 2011 - 09:20 .

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Reaverwind wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

I think the system of forcefully taking mages at a young age to make sure they know how to use their powers without becoming an abomination or such is important, though they should be more lax after the mage has proven himself. Also the Rite of Tranquility and the Harrowing are a bit questionable.

From what Wynne and others have to say, not all are taken forcefully, but are literally thrown at the Chantry, if not killed outright by the local populace. I do agree training is needed, but once that's done, mages should have greater freedom of movement. I abhor the idea of Tranquility and feel the practice should be dropped. I'm on the fence about the Harrowing, though.

The Circles need the Tranquil. Not speaking to the morality of the practice, here, but rather the simple necessity of those it creates. The Tranquil are the only non-dwarves able to work lyrium, and thus able to create enchantments. Without the revenue from selling magical objects, the Circles would not be able to continue to exist.

That being said, I feel the Rite of Tranquility should be reserved to solely for those who wish to undergo the Rite voluntarily.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dhiro wrote...

Beside the fact that the Teviter Imperium was a nation governed by magisters that opressed everyone?

They oppressed non-mages.

If it's okay for the non-mages to oppress the mages in Ferelden, why is it not okay for the opposite to be true in Tevinter?

[Eclipse_9990]

Dhiro wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****.. That and they're fighting off the Qunari..Successfully I might add.
Tevinter is still extremely powerful despite all this stuff..Arguably more powerful than the other nations.. 

Beside the fact that the Teviter Imperium was a nation governed by magisters that opressed everyone?

Also, Blood Magic was common in Tevinter Imperium. Hmm, remember how our Warden learn Blood Magic? Demon.

Wow you acting like the other nations don't oppress people.. Example Antiva.. The Crows can  pretty much do whatever the **** they want without repercussions. Its like the comic book "WANTED" but with less super villains and more Assassins.. Oh and lets not forget the Qunari they oppress they're people with the knowledge that its the citizens "duty" to do whatever the Arishok tells them.  

Also yes I remember how my Warden learned blood magic. I scared the desire demon into leaving Connor forevor and teaching me the forbidden arts... Whats the problem? 

Bearbeitet von Eclipse_9990, 17 Januar 2011 - 09:25 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Yeah and we know it isn't full proof, Uldred went through a harrowing too.

Indeed, mental fortiitude (itself not a constant) clearly isn't the final word on the matter.

Uldred was a result of the Cicle as much as it was blood magic. The reason why Uldred turned to dark magic was so he could be free. How many people here would pick up a sword and kill people who stole your freedom away from you simply because you were born different.

Uldred is a 50/50 Circle/Dark Magic problem.

[Dhiro]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Beside the fact that the Teviter Imperium was a nation governed by magisters that opressed everyone?

They oppressed non-mages.

If it's okay for the non-mages to oppress the mages in Ferelden, why is it not okay for the opposite to be true in Tevinter?

It's not okay, no one should be opressed.

[October Sixth]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Are you paying attention to what I'm saying at all? I'm not talking about putting mages in charge I'm pointing to the fact that the Tevinter have free mages running around their country and they have rituals in place to ensure that they don't become Abominations.

To the poster who asked how do we know there arn't abominations in Tevinter?... Did you not see Uldren? Do you really think if there were full fledged abominations like him in that country that they wouldn't be able to cross a simple border into another country?

You mean capable of perfectly mimicing human form...  sure and nobody would ever know about it.  Letting all mages go about without having them go through something like the Harrowing would really not be a good idea though and even then they can do stupid things like say... starting the first Blight?

Nobody is strictly saying the Mages need to be controlled by the chantry but many like myself believe they need to be watched and contained until properly prepared and trained.  The Templars and the Chantry just go too far.

Their entire society is based around mages they wouldn't want their population to become power mad creatures like Uldren any more than we would. The Harrowing is one of probably many other ways to make sure such things happen.  If you want to believe that the Tevinter is full of Uldreds than you can go ahead but the fact they have had a stable government for centruies if not a millenia tend to say no their government doens't have many abominations in it.

As for the Blight....Really? You're going to buy the Chantry's propaganda about that? The truth is no one truly knows right now what caused the Blights or what made the Darkspawn.

Just because Tevinter or Rivain provide ancedotal evidence of benign interaction with spirits/mage does not mean that their practices can just be transplanted to Ferelden with no ill effects.

Flemeth, Morrigan, and Connor are the best example we have of mages raised outside the circle. I don't think any of them are condusive to a safe and stable society.

Bearbeitet von October Sixth, 17 Januar 2011 - 09:26 .

[Dhiro]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The morality of the country is not what is in question here. The question was can Mages be free and be trusted not to become Abominations. Clearly the Tevinter has found a way of allowing every Mage freedom and we don't see Abominations coming out of that place.

*sigh* Yes, and we know how a country full of mages, ruled by mages, turned out.

Um.. It actually turned out well I don't know what point your trying to make..
The only bad things that happened to them was freakin Andraste ruining ****.. That and they're fighting off the Qunari..Successfully I might add.
Tevinter is still extremely powerful despite all this stuff..Arguably more powerful than the other nations.. 

Beside the fact that the Teviter Imperium was a nation governed by magisters that opressed everyone?

Also, Blood Magic was common in Tevinter Imperium. Hmm, remember how our Warden learn Blood Magic? Demon.

Wow you acting like the other nations don't oppress people.. Example Antiva.. The Crows can  pretty much do whatever the **** they want without repercussions. Its like the comic book "WANTED" but with less super villains and more Assassins.. Oh and lets not forget the Qunari they oppress they're people with the knowledge that its the citizens "duty" to do whatever the Arishok tells them.  

Also yes I remember how my Warden learned blood magic. I scared the desire demon into leaving Connor forevor and teaching me the forbidden arts... Whats the problem? 

And you think that every mage is our Warden? But I'm getting out of my point. Just because a country, let's say Antive, opress A, that doesn't mean is okay for mages to make a country and opress people too.

Edit: For clarification. I don't want anyone, mages or non-mages, to be opressed. But I don't think that mages can simply run free making magic of wonders. I don't think that a easy thing to get.

Bearbeitet von Dhiro, 17 Januar 2011 - 09:29 .

[Ziggeh]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Uldred was a result of the Cicle as much as it was blood magic.

Then that blood magic was a result of his situation, so it's 100% a circle thing. Important problem with the system, if the idea is to remove them from factors the demons might use to manipulate them, then it fails by providing this one.

[Dhiro]

filaminstrel wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The harrowing actually seems like a good idea to make sure a mage is strong willed enough to defend themselves from a demon, but after a mage passes it they should be granted much more freedom.

My issue with it is how they specifically bring a demon to the mage's region of the Fade for him to face. I'm not sure this is wise or necessary. I understand that they want to make sure he's ready, particularly because it's not only the mage's safety at stake when he encounters a demon, but there ought to be some way of executing a final test that doesn't involve throwing the self defense student in a back alley to face off against a rapist...

Especially if something like Mouse happens again. If the Mage was stupid enough to say "yes", they would have a abomination - a Pride Abomination, in their hands. One slip from a Templar, like let's say, Cullen, and the abomination is running free to kill people. Yay.