1869 réponses à ce sujet

[Aldandil]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

That mages weren't in society before probably meant that a lot of people died when an abomination showed up, because mages turn into abomination and that's dangerous for their surroundings.

Mages were in society before.  The codex: History of the Circle makes that abundantly clear.  The segretation of mages from society is only a few centuries old.

No one had an issue with it until the mages decided to go on strike...and of course they were cheerful.  The nutty Divine wanted to kill all of them and the templars talked her out of it.

Sorry, miswriting on my part. Mages were in society, people did mind, and something that is only a few centuries old can be a good thing.

Edit: Oh, and by the way, your suggestions doesn't sound bad. I think mages should keep being locked up, though.

Modifié par Aldandil, 20 janvier 2011 - 10:37 .

[IanPolaris]

Again, the codex entry is written from the specific point of view of the Chantry so OF COURSE they are going to say that! Read the Codex entries on the Exalted March of the Dales if you are Dalish when compared when you are not and you see a huge difference.



At any rate, we have a specific notation from the Chantry itself that says this is not so (from a Sister in the Chantry no less) and that certainly trumps the PoV of random Templar.



-Polaris

[Johnny Shepard]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

The codex entry about abominations. Written by the writers, not part of an in-game scroll.

Nope that codex entry was "written" from the point of view of a templar and I will post the full text here:

"We arrived in the dead of night. We had been tracking the maleficar for days, and finally had him cornered... or so we thought.

As we approached, a home on the edge of the town exploded, sending splinters of wood and fist-sized chunks of rocks into our ranks. We had but moments to regroup before fire rained from the sky, the sounds of destruction wrapped in a hideous laughter from the center of the village.

There, perched atop the spire of the village chantry, stood the mage. But he was human no longer.

We shouted prayers to the Maker and deflected what magic we could, but as we fought, the creature fought harder. I saw my comrades fall, burned by the flaming sky or crushed by debris. The monstrous creature, looking as if a demon were wearing a man like a twisted suit of skin, spotted me and grinned. We had forced it to this, I realized; the mage had made this pact, given himself over to the demon to survive our assault."

--Transcribed from a tale told by a former templar in Cumberland, 8:84 Blessed.[/i]

Not only was it written by a templar but the codex entry doesn't say what you claimed.  The Wiki entry does, but that ain't official and frequently wrong.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Not only that, but when you read the very codex entry you cite, you find it was the templars themselves that caused this abomination by forcing the mage into a situation where he had to make a deal with a demon or die.  This is what we are talking about when we say the Chantry's system doesn't work.

Wrong. The part he quoted came after the part from the Templars tale. Where the fact was.

[IanPolaris]

Aldandil wrote...

Sorry, miswriting on my part. Mages were in society, people did mind, and something that is only a few centuries old can be a good thing.

Evidence would be nice.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Wyndham711 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

If one believes that spreading the faith to the four corners of the world and making it believed by everyone a) is the Maker's will, and will trigger the Maker's return, ensuring eternal happiness for everyone - then conversion by the sword is indeed a justified act, not to mention a logical one. I don't see any solid reason for the subjects of the Chantry to not believe that to be true.

Murdering innocent people to force your religion in the region is never justifiable.

If it is the Maker's will then anything is justifiable. The Maker determines what is or isn't justifiable. Even a generally immoral act becomes a moral one if it is warranted by the Maker, or one of those who speak for him. Should one believe Chantry's teachings (and for a common person living under its influence rarely is there a solid reason not to do so) one is obliged to agree that the slaughtering of innocents is acceptable if done under the Maker's mandate.

What's more, the Maker of Thedas may well exist - one of the most fascinating, exciting aspects of the setting in my opinion. Essentially, a setting that fiddles with the question 'what if there actually was a god'?

Anyone can do something heinous and claim it was in the name of the Maker - does that mean that it should be justified? Andraste claimed to speak for the Maker as his Bride, but she didn't segregate mages or elves from the general populace like the Chantry has, and neither did her children. As for the setting of DA, there's no actual proof that there is a Maker. None whatsosever.

[IanPolaris]

Johnny Shepard wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

The codex entry about abominations. Written by the writers, not part of an in-game scroll.

Nope that codex entry was "written" from the point of view of a templar and I will post the full text here:

"We arrived in the dead of night. We had been tracking the maleficar for days, and finally had him cornered... or so we thought.

As we approached, a home on the edge of the town exploded, sending splinters of wood and fist-sized chunks of rocks into our ranks. We had but moments to regroup before fire rained from the sky, the sounds of destruction wrapped in a hideous laughter from the center of the village.

There, perched atop the spire of the village chantry, stood the mage. But he was human no longer.

We shouted prayers to the Maker and deflected what magic we could, but as we fought, the creature fought harder. I saw my comrades fall, burned by the flaming sky or crushed by debris. The monstrous creature, looking as if a demon were wearing a man like a twisted suit of skin, spotted me and grinned. We had forced it to this, I realized; the mage had made this pact, given himself over to the demon to survive our assault."

--Transcribed from a tale told by a former templar in Cumberland, 8:84 Blessed.[/i]

Not only was it written by a templar but the codex entry doesn't say what you claimed.  The Wiki entry does, but that ain't official and frequently wrong.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Not only that, but when you read the very codex entry you cite, you find it was the templars themselves that caused this abomination by forcing the mage into a situation where he had to make a deal with a demon or die.  This is what we are talking about when we say the Chantry's system doesn't work.

Wrong. The part he quoted came after the part from the Templars tale. Where the fact was.

It still reflects only the Chantry's PoV and is not a game fact especially when I can show from a Sister of the Chantry no less that this was not the reason that the Circle was formed and other societies don't have such issues.

-Polaris

[Aldandil]

IanPolaris wrote...

Again, the codex entry is written from the specific point of view of the Chantry so OF COURSE they are going to say that! Read the Codex entries on the Exalted March of the Dales if you are Dalish when compared when you are not and you see a huge difference.

At any rate, we have a specific notation from the Chantry itself that says this is not so (from a Sister in the Chantry no less) and that certainly trumps the PoV of random Templar.

-Polaris

Seriously? The chantry says they do one thing and that they do another thing? Isn't it possible they did both? Is any piece of information that doesn't suit you Chantry propaganda? Nevermind, it's late where I am and I'm off to bed.

[IanPolaris]

Aldandil wrote...

Edit: Oh, and by the way, your suggestions doesn't sound bad. I think mages should keep being locked up, though.

On what basis?  Clearly it's not needed for the security of society.  I've shown too many counter examples for anyone to reasonably believe this.

[Magical criminals and the like are another issue of course.]

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Aldandil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Again, the codex entry is written from the specific point of view of the Chantry so OF COURSE they are going to say that! Read the Codex entries on the Exalted March of the Dales if you are Dalish when compared when you are not and you see a huge difference.

At any rate, we have a specific notation from the Chantry itself that says this is not so (from a Sister in the Chantry no less) and that certainly trumps the PoV of random Templar.

-Polaris

Seriously? The chantry says they do one thing and that they do another thing? Isn't it possible they did both? Is any piece of information that doesn't suit you Chantry propaganda? Nevermind, it's late where I am and I'm off to bed.

Evidence would be nice.  So far the only evidence from the direct source (Chantry itself) says that mages were isolated to control them (and break a magical worker's strike).

-Polaris

[Johnny Shepard]

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

The codex entry about abominations. Written by the writers, not part of an in-game scroll.

Nope that codex entry was "written" from the point of view of a templar and I will post the full text here:

"We arrived in the dead of night. We had been tracking the maleficar for days, and finally had him cornered... or so we thought.

As we approached, a home on the edge of the town exploded, sending splinters of wood and fist-sized chunks of rocks into our ranks. We had but moments to regroup before fire rained from the sky, the sounds of destruction wrapped in a hideous laughter from the center of the village.

There, perched atop the spire of the village chantry, stood the mage. But he was human no longer.

We shouted prayers to the Maker and deflected what magic we could, but as we fought, the creature fought harder. I saw my comrades fall, burned by the flaming sky or crushed by debris. The monstrous creature, looking as if a demon were wearing a man like a twisted suit of skin, spotted me and grinned. We had forced it to this, I realized; the mage had made this pact, given himself over to the demon to survive our assault."

--Transcribed from a tale told by a former templar in Cumberland, 8:84 Blessed.[/i]

Not only was it written by a templar but the codex entry doesn't say what you claimed.  The Wiki entry does, but that ain't official and frequently wrong.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Not only that, but when you read the very codex entry you cite, you find it was the templars themselves that caused this abomination by forcing the mage into a situation where he had to make a deal with a demon or die.  This is what we are talking about when we say the Chantry's system doesn't work.

Wrong. The part he quoted came after the part from the Templars tale. Where the fact was.

It still reflects only the Chantry's PoV and is not a game fact especially when I can show from a Sister of the Chantry no less that this was not the reason that the Circle was formed and other societies don't have such issues.

-Polaris

So your saying that the game whriters was wrong when the put this info in and that you know the lore bether then them? Because you still clame that the Creature Codex is whriten by the Chantry even when there is NO evidence to that.
There is no signature at the end of the Codex entry and the text wasnt quoted, that means that it is fact.

So when it is said in "Arcane Warriors" that Pride Demons take controll of Mage corpses makes Arcane Warriors, that is no fact eather?

[Wyndham711]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anyone can do something heinous and claim it was in the name of the Maker - does that mean that it should be justified? Andraste claimed to speak for the Maker as his Bride, but she didn't segregate mages or elves from the general populace like the Chantry has, and neither did her children. As for the setting of DA, there's no actual proof that there is a Maker. None whatsosever.

No proof that we would consider proof. But there is also no evidence to support any other explanation for the creation of Thedas and its inhabitants. We don't know what kind of universe we are even talking about. Thedas is not Earth, and the question can't be answered the same way that it can here.

Now, it is obvious that the Chantry is a man made organization, whether originated by something divine or not - and as such it is bound to be an at least partially corrupt system. However, this is not knowledge generally available to your common person of Thedas. They have only what the Chantry teaches them, and following Chantry's teachings, it is indeed immoral to go against the will of the Maker - even if that means slaughtering the innocents.

[LobselVith8]

Aldandil wrote...

That mages weren't in society before probably meant that a lot of people died when an abomination showed up, because mages turn into abomination and that's dangerous for their surroundings.

Aside from speculation, we do know that the reason for mages being segregated from the general populace had nothing to do with protecting non-mages. It's certainly not possible for that to be reclaimed.

Aldandil wrote...

What difference does the purpose behind the Circles in the first place do?

It's an issue of the necessity of imprisoning mages. If templars served their function and mages lived alongside non-mages without anyone trying to force the issue of segregating them, then why imprison mages now? When people are imprisoned for being different and prevented from having any say over their lives, then they're going to rebel. Uldred's rebellion and the meeting in Cumberland are just recent examples of how there are mages who want to be emancipated from the Chantry. Imprisoning and dehumanizing mages isn't going to do anything but lead to bloodshed and revolution.

Beerfish wrote...

Abomination slaughters hoards of innocents kind of evil trumps, we are hard done by even though we have a fairly comfortable kind of lifestyle every time in my book and probably in the books of the common man, nobles and such.

It's obvious that this discussion could go on forever and no concensus reached. I'll leave it at this for my point of view. The people that have been in full support of mages having total freedom to do what they wish have totally failed to convince me that mages left to their own devices are no threat at all to society in general (whether it is their own choice or not).

Looking at it from the eyes of the Chantry, Templars and by far the most important of all the common people of the world, peasants, banns, nobles and some mages, a danger exists with mages and will always be there as long as possession of them can take place. They will be dealt with in a manner outside of the normal person no matter if they are contained and looked at by the Templars or not.

Your argument completely ignores that people have been arguing against the Chantry's practice of imprisoning people for having magical ability. No one is saying that the mages shouldn't be taught how to use their powers properly or that there shouldn't be checks and balances in place to keep the peace, but there's no reason that a religious institution should have total authority over their lives. Considering how anyone can be possessed in Thedas - including Ander's cat, who murdered four templars - I don't see how the Chantry's solution of jailing people or blindly murdering anyone even suspected of being a mage (like the Magnificent D'Sims) is going to accomplish anything but an endless cycle of violence and mistrust.

[Johnny Shepard]

And the Dales part is writen by a Sister of the Chantry, but not the info on Abominations.

[IanPolaris]

Johnny Shepard wrote...

So your saying that the game whriters was wrong when the put this info in and that you know the lore bether then them? Because you still clame that the Creature Codex is whriten by the Chantry even when there is NO evidence to that.
There is no signature at the end of the Codex entry and the text wasnt quoted, that means that it is fact.

Actually no it doesn't.  The Codex entries after the quotations reflect what you believe to be fact and that is a big difference.

So when it is said in "Arcane Warriors" that Pride Demons take controll of Mage corpses makes Arcane Warriors, that is no fact eather?

Not necessarily.  Again it's what is believed to be fact.  The Codex entries can (and do) vary considerably based on what background you play.  Play a Dalish Elf and see what the codex entries are like regarding the Creators, Dalish Kingdom, Exalted Marches, and the like and you get very different entries on what is 'known'.

In the codex entry I cite, we have the direct and transcribed words of a Chantry Sister describing the event.  That is not subject to interpretation while all the flavor text after such entries are.

In short, the only "factual" parts of the codex entries are the actual quotations themselves (in so far as they are actual quotations I mean in the game).  Otherwise the entries depend very much on your POV.

The FACT that the circles were not started to protect anyone, is a FACT based on the direct quotation of a sister in the chantry and not any given character's PoV.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Wyndham711 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anyone can do something heinous and claim it was in the name of the Maker - does that mean that it should be justified? Andraste claimed to speak for the Maker as his Bride, but she didn't segregate mages or elves from the general populace like the Chantry has, and neither did her children. As for the setting of DA, there's no actual proof that there is a Maker. None whatsosever.

No proof that we would consider proof. But there is also no evidence to support any other explanation for the creation of Thedas and its inhabitants. We don't know what kind of universe we are even talking about. Thedas is not Earth, and the question can't be answered the same way that it can here.

It was the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You heard it here first.

Wyndham711 wrote...

Now, it is obvious that the Chantry is a man made organization, whether originated by something divine or not - and as such it is bound to be an at least partially corrupt system. However, this is not knowledge generally available to your common person of Thedas. They have only what the Chantry teaches them, and following Chantry's teachings, it is indeed immoral to go against the will of the Maker - even if that means slaughtering the innocents.

That argument ignores the other beliefs of Thedas. The Dalish believe in the Creators. The Qunari believe in the Qun. Kolgrim sees the High Dragon as the reincarnated form of Andraste. Morrigan (and other atheists) believe in no creator at all.

[IanPolaris]

Johnny Shepard wrote...

And the Dales part is writen by a Sister of the Chantry, but not the info on Abominations.

Only if you aren't Dalish.  Otherwise it is written by Dalish authors and the commentary afterwards is quite different which points out that the commentary in the Codecies after the quotations are NOT fact but rather what you based on your background should believe to be fact based on what you've been told.

That's a huge difference.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Wyndham711 wrote...

Now, it is obvious that the Chantry is a man made organization, whether originated by something divine or not - and as such it is bound to be an at least partially corrupt system. However, this is not knowledge generally available to your common person of Thedas. They have only what the Chantry teaches them, and following Chantry's teachings, it is indeed immoral to go against the will of the Maker - even if that means slaughtering the innocents.

Indeed and combine that with what you learn from the sisters in Denerim that the Chant of Light is quite literally written in pencil and can be changed at any time at the whim of the Divine, and the chantry (and thus the templars) can "morally" justify anything at all at any time even if they contradict from day to day.  This is reason number one why at a minimum the circles need to be removed (by force if necessary) from chantry oversight.

-Polaris

[Morroian]

Beerfish wrote...

And despite REPEATED requests in this thread, not once has any of the pro mage people in this thread come up with any kind of realistic 'regulation plan' . 

Sure we have, it may not be accepted by the general populace but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work if implemented.

Beerfish wrote...

Perhaps because they have already juimped all over the 'slavery' defintion to such an extent that any restriction they apply will be considered slavery? 

I'm pro-mage but I think calling it slavery is a stretch.

[Wyndham711]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

Now, it is obvious that the Chantry is a man made organization, whether originated by something divine or not - and as such it is bound to be an at least partially corrupt system. However, this is not knowledge generally available to your common person of Thedas. They have only what the Chantry teaches them, and following Chantry's teachings, it is indeed immoral to go against the will of the Maker - even if that means slaughtering the innocents.

That argument ignores the other beliefs of Thedas. The Dalish believe in the Creators. The Qunari believe in the Qun. Kolgrim sees the High Dragon as the reincarnated form of Andraste. Morrigan (and other atheists) believe in no creator at all.

The Andrastian faith doesn't really involve the other races - according to it, the Maker is first and foremost interested in the affairs of humans. It doesn't really matter what paganry the elves or dwarves involve themselves in - it seems to me they would be considered a lost cause anyways. And I would imagine Morrigan and other equivalent infidels should simply either be forced into faith or killed. Ultimately, when the only humans left on Thedas are all devout Andrastians, the Maker shall return.

[IanPolaris]

I think 'slavery' fits the Tranquil perfectly. As for the rest of the mages, I would personally call them 'political prisoners', i.e. imprisoned without trial and without any real justification to support the power of the chantry.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Wyndham711 wrote...
The Andrastian faith doesn't really involve the other races - according to it, the Maker is first and foremost interested in the affairs of humans. It doesn't really matter what paganry the elves or dwarves involve themselves in - it seems to me they would be considered a lost cause anyways. And I would imagine Morrigan and other equivalent infidels should simply either be forced into faith or killed. Ultimately, when the only humans left on Thedas are all devout Andrastians, the Maker shall return.

That's not really true.  The Andrastian faith is very much concerned about Elves...so much so that Divine Renata started an entire exalted march just to get those "heathen elves" to properly worship the maker.  [Of course the fact that the Dales were kicking Orlais' tail between it's legs has nothing to do with it.......]  The Andrastians I've met in the game are remarkably intolerant towards elves that don't submit.

It's the dwarves they don't seem to care much about.

-Polaris

[Johnny Shepard]

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

So your saying that the game whriters was wrong when the put this info in and that you know the lore bether then them? Because you still clame that the Creature Codex is whriten by the Chantry even when there is NO evidence to that.
There is no signature at the end of the Codex entry and the text wasnt quoted, that means that it is fact.

Actually no it doesn't.  The Codex entries after the quotations reflect what you believe to be fact and that is a big difference.

So when it is said in "Arcane Warriors" that Pride Demons take controll of Mage corpses makes Arcane Warriors, that is no fact eather?

Not necessarily.  Again it's what is believed to be fact.  The Codex entries can (and do) vary considerably based on what background you play.  Play a Dalish Elf and see what the codex entries are like regarding the Creators, Dalish Kingdom, Exalted Marches, and the like and you get very different entries on what is 'known'.

In the codex entry I cite, we have the direct and transcribed words of a Chantry Sister describing the event.  That is not subject to interpretation while all the flavor text after such entries are.

In short, the only "factual" parts of the codex entries are the actual quotations themselves (in so far as they are actual quotations I mean in the game).  Otherwise the entries depend very much on your POV.

The FACT that the circles were not started to protect anyone, is a FACT based on the direct quotation of a sister in the chantry and not any given character's PoV.

-Polaris

Hmm, strange then that all my characters, including the Dalish Elv, think the same thing about Abominations. The same with the Archdemon.
Even the info on the Halla is the same. The only things different are the quoted parts.

Btw, can you show where the Devs say that the Codex entrys are not facts but depending on what your character thinks? Because its news to me.

[Morroian]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think 'slavery' fits the Tranquil perfectly. As for the rest of the mages, I would personally call them 'political prisoners', i.e. imprisoned without trial and without any real justification to support the power of the chantry.

Yeah I can agree with that.

[Wyndham711]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...
The Andrastian faith doesn't really involve the other races - according to it, the Maker is first and foremost interested in the affairs of humans. It doesn't really matter what paganry the elves or dwarves involve themselves in - it seems to me they would be considered a lost cause anyways. And I would imagine Morrigan and other equivalent infidels should simply either be forced into faith or killed. Ultimately, when the only humans left on Thedas are all devout Andrastians, the Maker shall return.

That's not really true.  The Andrastian faith is very much concerned about Elves...so much so that Divine Renata started an entire exalted march just to get those "heathen elves" to properly worship the maker.  [Of course the fact that the Dales were kicking Orlais' tail between it's legs has nothing to do with it.......]  The Andrastians I've met in the game are remarkably intolerant towards elves that don't submit.

It's the dwarves they don't seem to care much about.

-Polaris

Ah, thanks. I stand corrected. Though I think my general point still stands.

[IanPolaris]

Johnny Shepard wrote...

Hmm, strange then that all my characters, including the Dalish Elv, think the same thing about Abominations. The same with the Archdemon.
Even the info on the Halla is the same. The only things different are the quoted parts.

Btw, can you show where the Devs say that the Codex entrys are not facts but depending on what your character thinks? Because its news to me.

Sure because all characters only get once source for the information they get for abominations.  Even your Dalish gets it from INSIDE THE CIRCLE TOWER!  Compare Dalish Codex entries if you are dalish and non-Dalish and you will find I am correct.  The commentary in the codecies change depending on your PoV and thus are not reliable game facts.

Even so, I have in writing a DIRECT QUOTE from a sister of the chantry that flat out states that the circle was not started to protect anyone, and you don't get to shuffle that aside.

-Polaris