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[Johnny Shepard]

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

And the Dales part is writen by a Sister of the Chantry, but not the info on Abominations.

Only if you aren't Dalish.  Otherwise it is written by Dalish authors and the commentary afterwards is quite different which points out that the commentary in the Codecies after the quotations are NOT fact but rather what you based on your background should believe to be fact based on what you've been told.

That's a huge difference.

-Polaris

There is no commentary after the quoted text on the Dales. Most Culture codex entrys are just quotes from ingame books.

[IanPolaris]

Johnny Shepard wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

And the Dales part is writen by a Sister of the Chantry, but not the info on Abominations.

Only if you aren't Dalish.  Otherwise it is written by Dalish authors and the commentary afterwards is quite different which points out that the commentary in the Codecies after the quotations are NOT fact but rather what you based on your background should believe to be fact based on what you've been told.

That's a huge difference.

-Polaris

There is no commentary after the quoted text on the Dales. Most Culture codex entrys are just quotes from ingame books.

Doesn't change the fact that the only source for this information on abominations (the source of your codex) is the CIRCLE TOWER and that means it's not a reliable source (the quote is reliable enough and it actually shows the abomination happened because of the templar's own actions!)

I have a DIRECT QUOTE from a sister in the chantry that flat out states why the circle was created and it has nothing to do with protecting anyone, and you don't get to ignore it.  So sorry.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  AT best this codex (which was copied from a book in the Circle Tower!) gives you the Circle/Chantry's current justification for the Circle and how it relates to abominations, but it's not an overall WoG like you are trying to make it.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:19 .

[Johnny Shepard]

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

Hmm, strange then that all my characters, including the Dalish Elv, think the same thing about Abominations. The same with the Archdemon.
Even the info on the Halla is the same. The only things different are the quoted parts.

Btw, can you show where the Devs say that the Codex entrys are not facts but depending on what your character thinks? Because its news to me.

Sure because all characters only get once source for the information they get for abominations.  Even your Dalish gets it from INSIDE THE CIRCLE TOWER!  Compare Dalish Codex entries if you are dalish and non-Dalish and you will find I am correct.  The commentary in the codecies change depending on your PoV and thus are not reliable game facts.

-Polaris

Can you give an example of where in the codex the comment part change depending on what you play? Because so far I can't find even one.

[IanPolaris]

Johnny Shepard wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

Hmm, strange then that all my characters, including the Dalish Elv, think the same thing about Abominations. The same with the Archdemon.
Even the info on the Halla is the same. The only things different are the quoted parts.

Btw, can you show where the Devs say that the Codex entrys are not facts but depending on what your character thinks? Because its news to me.

Sure because all characters only get once source for the information they get for abominations.  Even your Dalish gets it from INSIDE THE CIRCLE TOWER!  Compare Dalish Codex entries if you are dalish and non-Dalish and you will find I am correct.  The commentary in the codecies change depending on your PoV and thus are not reliable game facts.

-Polaris

Can you give an example of where in the codex the comment part change depending on what you play? Because so far I can't find even one.

Can you prove that the commentary part of codecies are the unvarnished Word of God?  NO?

Good.  The very source (a book in the circle tower) makes the commentary suspect.  Can you show me ANY direct sources from the circle or chantry (quoted material) that says explicitly that the circle system is designed to protect against abominations, because I can cite at least one that says something quite different.

-Polaris

[JamesX]

IanPolaris wrote...
Doesn't change the fact that the only source for this information on abominations (the source of your codex) is the CIRCLE TOWER and that means it's not a reliable source (the quote is reliable enough and it actually shows the abomination happened because of the templar's own actions!)

I have a DIRECT QUOTE from a sister in the chantry that flat out states why the circle was created and it has nothing to do with protecting anyone, and you don't get to ignore it.  So sorry.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  AT best this codex (which was copied from a book in the Circle Tower!) gives you the Circle/Chantry's current justification for the Circle and how it relates to abominations, but it's not an overall WoG like you are trying to make it.

The Circle is consist of Mages.  So you are saying the Mages of the Circle are brainwashed to present falsified information and blame themselves because the Chantry forced them to?  Even though none of the Circle Member in DA:O have demonstrated such a dominated relation with the Chantry?

The U.N. was founded really to check USSR's power and promote U.S. Interests, it doesn't make it any less positive of an effect on Crisis Management.  Why something is made is not the sole determination for what something does.

Penicillin was made because bad lab management techniques, and contaminated petri dish with lunch bread.  It doesn't make it any less of a life saving drug to the world does it?  You seems so fixated on "Origins" you don't see to realize the actual effect. 

[Johnny Shepard]

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

Hmm, strange then that all my characters, including the Dalish Elv, think the same thing about Abominations. The same with the Archdemon.
Even the info on the Halla is the same. The only things different are the quoted parts.

Btw, can you show where the Devs say that the Codex entrys are not facts but depending on what your character thinks? Because its news to me.

Sure because all characters only get once source for the information they get for abominations.  Even your Dalish gets it from INSIDE THE CIRCLE TOWER!  Compare Dalish Codex entries if you are dalish and non-Dalish and you will find I am correct.  The commentary in the codecies change depending on your PoV and thus are not reliable game facts.

-Polaris

Can you give an example of where in the codex the comment part change depending on what you play? Because so far I can't find even one.

Can you prove that the commentary part of codecies are the unvarnished Word of God?  NO?

Good.  The very source (a book in the circle tower) makes the commentary suspect.  Can you show me ANY direct sources from the circle or chantry (quoted material) that says explicitly that the circle system is designed to protect against abominations, because I can cite at least one that says something quite different.

-Polaris

What I can prove is that the text does NOT change but you can't prove that it changes.
And how can YOU prove that the codex is writen in PoV?

And its NOT from a book. Its the entry you get the first time you fight an Abomination.

And if its just the commentary of your character the why would he say about Flemeth "Morrigan's mother saved the last Grey Warden from death at the Tower of Ishal". If it was your characters comment, wouldn't it say "Morrigan's mother saved me from death"?

Modifié par Johnny Shepard, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:31 .

[IanPolaris]

Shepard,



Given the fact that codex entries can and DO change depending on background, you can not ascribe any of the commentary as the unvarnished WoG. Doesn't work that way. At best this is information that your character (might) believe to be true. OTOH, I can CITE at least one unquestioned chantry source that states that the Circle system was NOT designed to protect anyone.



-polaris

[IanPolaris]

JamesX wrote...
The Circle is consist of Mages.  So you are saying the Mages of the Circle are brainwashed to present falsified information and blame themselves because the Chantry forced them to?  Even though none of the Circle Member in DA:O have demonstrated such a dominated relation with the Chantry?

Yes.  Keli is exhibit A and Wynne is exhibit B of exactly that sort.  In fact both (esp Wynne) turn off their brains whever the subject of the chantry comes up (and especially blood magic).

The U.N. was founded really to check USSR's power and promote U.S. Interests, it doesn't make it any less positive of an effect on Crisis Management.  Why something is made is not the sole determination for what something does.

That wasn't why the UN was founded.  If it was, the Soviet Union never would have signed.

Penicillin was made because bad lab management techniques, and contaminated petri dish with lunch bread.  It doesn't make it any less of a life saving drug to the world does it?  You seems so fixated on "Origins" you don't see to realize the actual effect. 

Penicillin was an accident with positive results and was a physical discovery in medicine with provable and verifiable benefits.  I have yet to see anything of the sort (or evidence at all) when it comes to the circle.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

I can prove that codex entries change because of background. See the Dalish vs Non-Dalish codex entries of the Creator Gods of the Elves or for that matter the Exalted March against the Dales.



-Polaris

[Johnny Shepard]

And what makes your's more belivable then ours? "one unquestioned chantry source"? What makes it true?



And you have never given an example of any entries that change depending on background just like I havent found any even do I keep switching characters and comparing.

[IanPolaris]

Johnny Shepard wrote...

And what makes your's more belivable then ours? "one unquestioned chantry source"? What makes it true?

And you have never given an example of any entries that change depending on background just like I havent found any even do I keep switching characters and comparing.

If you are Dalish, your Dalish entries are written from the PoV of past Dalish Keepers.  Otherwise they are written from the chantry's PoV.  I've seen this myself.

I have a direct cite from a respected Chantry Sister, Sister Petrine that specifically states how and why the Circles were Established and protection had zip to do with it.  You at best can point to uncited commentary written from the PoV of Joe Templar.

I'll take mine over yours any day.

-Polaris

[Johnny Shepard]

IanPolaris wrote...

I can prove that codex entries change because of background. See the Dalish vs Non-Dalish codex entries of the Creator Gods of the Elves or for that matter the Exalted March against the Dales.

-Polaris

But they are all parts from books, signed at the end by who wrote it, when and what book. None of them have commentarys that you say are of the main character.

[Johnny Shepard]

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny Shepard wrote...

And what makes your's more belivable then ours? "one unquestioned chantry source"? What makes it true?

And you have never given an example of any entries that change depending on background just like I havent found any even do I keep switching characters and comparing.

If you are Dalish, your Dalish entries are written from the PoV of past Dalish Keepers.  Otherwise they are written from the chantry's PoV.  I've seen this myself.

I have a direct cite from a respected Chantry Sister, Sister Petrine that specifically states how and why the Circles were Established and protection had zip to do with it.  You at best can point to uncited commentary written from the PoV of Joe Templar.

I'll take mine over yours any day.

-Polaris

No, I pointed to the text AFTER the text from the Templars POV, the one that has no signature at the bottom.
Check Abomination and tell me how you know that the text AFTER the Templars statement are wrong?

And all the changed entries are from books. Im still talking about the ones that are not. Tell us of one where the text, that is not from a book, change?

Modifié par Johnny Shepard, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

And despite REPEATED requests in this thread, not once has any of the pro mage people in this thread come up with any kind of realistic 'regulation plan' . Perhaps because they have already juimped all over the 'slavery' defintion to such an extent that any restriction they apply will be considered slavery? You can call strawman all you wish if I can call topic avoidance in regard to the pro mage people downplaying danger from abominations and coming up with zero alternative to the present situation. It's easy to defend an alternative when you don't actually put one forth.

Well, IanPolaris did explain why the slavery definition fit, but since you're not addressing that let's move on. First and foremost, I don't see how oppressing mages is going to lead to anything but a revolution. Ripping a child from their family to toss them into a prison, where they'll never have the opportunities that ordinary people have or any opportunity to be more than a mage subserviant to the Knight-Commander, is going to make many mages resentful. That's why so many mages were willing to side with Uldred and fight for their freedom. It's clear from Uldred's rebellion and the meeting in Cumberland that mages are looking to emancipate themselves from being pawns of the Chantry.

Beerfish wrote...
Connor was not turned over to the Chantry as he should have been. Thus the problem. That tragedy was 100% due to the fact that a person did NOT follow the current mage rules but instead decided to do their own thing. That is a pretty clear + on the side of the present rules. Whether the rules are distasteful or not, if Connor is Circle bound as soon as he should have been Redcliffe would not have occured.

So we're ignoring the social conditions of fear and mistrust that the Chantry have ingrained in the minds of people throughout the Andrastian nations and placing sole blame on the fact that a pious woman was embarrased that her son had magic and that he would forever be taken away from his family? It seems clear to me that if the Chantry wasn't so focused on spreading its anti-mage propaganda by making everyone think that mage=evil and automatically imprisoning mages for the rest of their lives, then the incident at Redcliffe never would have transpired.

Beerfish wrote...

One could easily argue that if the Chantry and Templars had been more vigilant, not less vigilant they could have stopped Uldred as well.

Or one could argue that if the mages weren't imprisoned for their entire lives by the same group that preaches hatred and intolerance against mages throughout Thedas, then there never would have been a revolt against the Chantry for freedom in the first place.

Aldandil wrote...

I opened up the game, the text is in there. You need to scroll down. It says exactly what the wiki entry says, and considering that the wiki entry copies the Codex, that's hardly surprising.

You realize that all the codexs are all from the perspective of particular groups, and therefore prone to bias, correct? That's why the codex about the Dalish varies depending on whether the Warden is Dalish or not.

[Johnny Shepard]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

I opened up the game, the text is in there. You need to scroll down. It says exactly what the wiki entry says, and considering that the wiki entry copies the Codex, that's hardly surprising.

You realize that all the codexs are all from the perspective of particular groups, and therefore prone to bias, correct? That's why the codex about the Dalish varies depending on whether the Warden is Dalish or not.

There are 2 types of texts in the codex. Most of them have a text at the bottom telling who wrote it, what book its from aso. But some of them, mostly in the creature section, have text without signature thats more fact. There is nothing in that text saying that its from a special group or that its bias.

Modifié par Johnny Shepard, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:10 .

[Johnny Shepard]

This is the exact codex entry in the game on Abominations:

"We arrived in the dead of night. We had been tracking the maleficar for days, and finally had him cornered... or so we thought.

As we approached, a home on the edge of the town exploded, sending splinters of wood and fist-sized chunks of rocks into our ranks. We had but moments to regroup before fire rained from the sky, the sounds of destruction wrapped in a hideous laughter from the center of the village.

There, perched atop the spire of the village chantry, stood the mage. But he was human no longer.

We shouted prayers to the Maker and deflected what magic we could, but as we fought, the creature fought harder. I saw my comrades fall, burned by the flaming sky or crushed by debris. The monstrous creature, looking as if a demon were wearing a man like a twisted suit of skin, spotted me and grinned. We had forced it to this, I realized; the mage had made this pact, given himself over to the demon to survive our assault."

--Transcribed from a tale told by a former templar in Cumberland, 8:84 Blessed.


It is known that mages are able to walk the Fade while completely aware of their surroundings, unlike most others who may only enter the realm as dreamers and leave it scarcely aware of their experience. Demons are drawn to mages, though whether it is because of this awareness or simply by virtue of their magical power in our world is unknown.

Regardless of the reason, a demon always attempts to possess a mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal depending on the strength of the mage. Should the demon get the upper hand, the result is an unholy union known as an abomination. Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the Circle of Magi.

Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon. But once an abomination is created, it will do its best to create more. Considering that entire squads of templars have been known to fall at the hands of a single abomination, it is not surprising that the Chantry takes the business of the Circle of Magi very seriously indeed.

Now tell me where you make out that the last part is bias, from a certin group or by the main character? This part:

It is known that mages are able to walk the Fade while completely aware of their surroundings, unlike most others who may only enter the realm as dreamers and leave it scarcely aware of their experience. Demons are drawn to mages, though whether it is because of this awareness or simply by virtue of their magical power in our world is unknown.

Regardless of the reason, a demon always attempts to possess a mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal depending on the strength of the mage. Should the demon get the upper hand, the result is an unholy union known as an abomination. Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the Circle of Magi.

Thankfully, abominations are rare. The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon. But once an abomination is created, it will do its best to create more. Considering that entire squads of templars have been known to fall at the hands of a single abomination, it is not surprising that the Chantry takes the business of the Circle of Magi very seriously indeed.

Oh, and tell me if this is from a Dalish Warden or a Human or a Dwarf?

Modifié par Johnny Shepard, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:35 .

[LobselVith8]

Wyndham711 wrote...
The Andrastian faith doesn't really involve the other races - according to it, the Maker is first and foremost interested in the affairs of humans. It doesn't really matter what paganry the elves or dwarves involve themselves in - it seems to me they would be considered a lost cause anyways. And I would imagine Morrigan and other equivalent infidels should simply either be forced into faith or killed. Ultimately, when the only humans left on Thedas are all devout Andrastians, the Maker shall return.

But that's no proof that it's correct - in fact, the elves lived in Thedas long before humans did, so their religion predates the Andrastian Chantry. There were also the dragon cults that previously existed, and some still do even to this day. You can look at the Exalted March on the Dales and Brother Burkel's attempts to convert the dwarves of Orzammar to the Chant of Light as proof that the Chantry is looking to spread it's religion on those who aren't human, but I don't see any reason to assume that the Maker exists.

Aldandil wrote...
Sorry, miswriting on my part. Mages were in society, people did mind, and something that is only a few centuries old can be a good thing.

People did mind mages being a part of society? Surprising that it took a non-violent protest to suddenly isolate mages from society, then.

Aldandil wrote...
Seriously? The chantry says they do one thing and that they do another thing? Isn't it possible they did both? Is any piece of information that doesn't suit you Chantry propaganda? Nevermind, it's late where I am and I'm off to bed.

You mean, when the codex for the History of the Circle reads that it was established because of a nonviolent protest, and that was the cause of mages being segregated from the general public, leaving out any and all mention of protecting people from blood mages and abominations, it leaves little doubt that it's anything else. Especially when you factor in that this was written by a Chantry scholar.

Johnny Shepard wrote...
Wrong. The part he quoted came after the part from the Templars tale. Where the fact was.

You realize that even the devs have addressed that the codexes are based on the POVs of the people who write them, correct?

Johnny Shepard wrote...
So your saying that the game writers was wrong when the put this info in and that you know the lore bether then them? Because you still clame that the Creature Codex is whriten by the Chantry even when there is NO evidence to that.
There is no signature at the end of the Codex entry and the text wasnt quoted, that means that it is fact.

So when it is said in "Arcane Warriors" that Pride Demons take controll of Mage corpses makes Arcane Warriors, that is no fact eather?

IanPolaris is pointing out that it's a codex prompted from a particular perspective, i.e. the two different codex entries that the Warden gets depending on whether they are Dalish or non-Dalish. All of the codex entries are from the world of Thedas, with the exception of the game play guidelines. It's colored by the background your character comes from. You're confusing the POV of the codex writer with the actual developers of the game. The codex is written from a particular POV, it isn't the absolute truth.

Johnny Shepard wrote...
Hmm, strange then that all my characters, including the Dalish Elv, think the same thing about Abominations. The same with the Archdemon.
Even the info on the Halla is the same. The only things different are the quoted parts.

Btw, can you show where the Devs say that the Codex entrys are not facts but depending on what your character thinks? Because its news to me.

Likely the same reason why a Dalish Warden can ask the Chantry sister in Denerim who Shartan was. Shartan, the greatest hero of the Dalish people! As for the codex entries, of course they're biased and skewed depending on the character's background - that's why it varies at times (like the Dalish codex).

[luckyirish.dowd]

I'm not sure if anyone has ever asked this, but if abominations are so bad and happen so often, how did the world manage to survive so long without the Chantry's control and the Templars? Mage's are made out to be ticking time bombs that are only kept from exploding because of self control and (ultimately) a sword at their throats. But that wasn't always the way. Personally, I don't think that the Templars are really needed because obviously somehow mages survived thousands of years without them. I think that this in more of an issue of power and control.



In the past, mages banded together and took control over the governments of their kingdoms, like the Treventar Imperium. They eventually fell, and now the Chantry, made up of "ordinary" people, ran in and took over as much power as it could and forced any threat to either be controlled or die. Oh, they claimed that it was for making sure that magic only ever is used to help people, but asking someone to heal others at knife point doesn't make your intentions any better. It's about control, plain and simple.



Another thought that seems to have completely elluded much of the game is the idea that if evil spirits are so keen to come into our world and wreck havic, them isn't it just as likely that good spirits would also try to come through to stop them? Or at least interact more to teach us how to do it? But the only real case that you encounter is Wynne, who just happened to be possessed out of niceness (not an actual purpose), and Justice, who accidently got dumped into a corpse. Why don't more mages get help from spirits? Why can't blood magic be used to summon spirits as well as demons?



On that thought, why is blood magic so terrible after all? It's more powerful than normal magic (the Redcliff quest says that 1 human sacrifice can do what a whole ton of refined lyrium can do) and doesn't mean that you WILL summon a demon, just that it is possible. If you want to go with general magic lore (outside of Dragon Age), it's generally considered that blood given willingly and blood taken forcefully tend to be used for the most powerful spells. Why can't this idea also be transfered over to DA? Healing and Drain Life could become even more effective in blood magic as well as other spirit based damaging moves.



I guess what I'm saying is that I hate almost every character in the game takes the mage's treatment as being wholely acceptable. No one tries to go against it for good reasons (only evil mages ever fight it), and the best that you get for decent is Morrigan mocking the sheep in the tower who willingly follow it. I'd like to see some choices with game changing consiquences that occure whether the main character decides to free the mages, let the degree of control remain, or increase the level of control. I'd also like to see more characters who have made pacts with spirits or demons (not taken over, but allied with) that have an impact on the game. Maybe that possesed person isn't quite so evil? Maybe they are evil, but they want to help you stop a greater evil? Maybe someone possessed by a Valor spirit gets too wrapped up in glory and combat and ends up causing more pain as he searches for glory. Or even turns himself into a Pride demon when the human counterpart gets so wrapped up in enjoying the attention that he's recieving. I'd like to see some conplexity like that that shows that not every good intention is for the best, and not every bad guy is fully evil.

[LobselVith8]

Johnny, you realize that the first part of your "undisputed truth" is "It is known" correct? That leads me to side with IanPolaris as it being overheard information and not Word of God info. Furthermore, "Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the Circle of Magi" completely contradicts the codex entry provided by the Chantry scholar; it seems more like Chantry propaganda than anything else. Why are you so quick to believe this as the one and only indisputable truth when it directly contradicts the History of the Circle codex?

James X wrote...
The Circle is consist of Mages. So you are saying the Mages of the Circle are brainwashed to present falsified information and blame themselves because the Chantry forced them to? Even though none of the Circle Member in DA:O have demonstrated such a dominated relation with the Chantry?

Greagoir certainly blames mages for bringing the world to the brink of ruin... (Magi Origin)

James X wrote...

The U.N. was founded really to check USSR's power and promote U.S. Interests, it doesn't make it any less positive of an effect on Crisis Management. Why something is made is not the sole determination for what something does.

Let's see how one could evaluate the Chantry and the Circles: imprisoning and dehumanizing mages across Thedas through Circles that are under the sole authority of a religious organization that spreads hateful propaganda about mages, but uses them to fight their wars against the darkspawn and the Qunari. Probably the reason why mages keep resisting their oppressors and fighting to attain their freedom.

James X wrote...

Penicillin was made because bad lab management techniques, and contaminated petri dish with lunch bread. It doesn't make it any less of a life saving drug to the world does it? You seems so fixated on "Origins" you don't see to realize the actual effect.

The problem with that analysis is that it doesn't acknowledge how the Chantry conditions some mages to resort to the dark arts in order to survive against the templars trying to murder them. It ignores how templars have killed innocent people (like the Magnificent D'Sims) under the mere assumption that they were a mage (and D'Sims wasn't a mage). It ignores how mages are taken from their families and tossed into a prison, given a life sentence because they have magical ability. If the Chantry was so good at preventing abominations, why were there so many Rites performed over the centuries? Why have mages risked their very lives for the small chance to be free? Why did Uldred's rebellion even transpire, where the abominations were too much for Greagoir and his templars to handle (which he actually admits to the Warden)?

[Ziggeh]

luckyirish.dowd wrote...
I'm not sure if anyone has ever asked this, but if abominations are so bad and happen so often, how did the world manage to survive so long without the Chantry's control and the Templars? Mage's are made out to be ticking time bombs that are only kept from exploding because of self control and (ultimately) a sword at their throats. But that wasn't always the way. Personally, I don't think that the Templars are really needed because obviously somehow mages survived thousands of years without them.

They aren't a species. For all we know standard practice was to murder them on sight. Countless generations could have gone mageless, and you'd still have mages kicking about the place.

[JamesX]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Yes.  Keli is exhibit A and Wynne is exhibit B of exactly that sort.  In fact both (esp Wynne) turn off their brains whever the subject of the chantry comes up (and especially blood magic).[/quote]I actually think Wynn makes a lot of sense when it comes to blood mage and chantry.  Why is it you consider them turning their brains off when they take an opinion you don't agree with?

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...That wasn't why the UN was founded.  If it was, the Soviet Union never would have signed.[/quote]Soviet Signed because either they are involved or they are going to be completely cut out.  Your view of the world seems incredibly unsophesticated.  #1 rules about Countries, they exist as parasites upon each other.   Even if you claim they are symbiotic, symbiotic is just mutual parasitism.  It is true in biology and it is true in society.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Penicillin was an accident with positive results and was a physical discovery in medicine with provable and verifiable benefits.  I have yet to see anything of the sort (or evidence at all) when it comes to the circle.

-Polaris[/quote]Yet Circle is an actual physical entity.  Previously your entire argument rest in that Circle is founded (in your opinion) on Chantry lies and ONLY because of Chantry lies.  My point is that whatever chantry said is irrelevant in the scope of the world because the Circle is an entity/organization and have effects beyond its origins.

As for verifiable evidence

We know as facts that Circle is independent in their own governance with Supervision by the Templars in the case of Abominations.  This is fact.  You can argue that they can be killed at any time, but you cannot deny that Irwin have demonstrated considerable independence.  Circle Mages can also travel across the world with or without out Templar Escorts.  By the very fact that the Circle was in Ostagar without an Templar Army present.  And later when you recruit circle's help and have the random encounter they are not travelling with Templar Escorts.

We also known as fact that it provided young mages with a sort of safe habor, where they are housed and basic necessity of living met.  They are also prepared with valuable training and guidence.  However inadequate you believe their system being, you cannot argue that a circle trained mage is not better off than some poor adolescent turned mage in the middle of some backwater village and left off to face society on his own while avoiding the pitfalls of the fade.

However, if you sincerely believe that adolescent who awakened to his mage powers in those conditions are STILL better off than a Circle Neophyte then we really have nothing to discuss is there?  

Because your view of the world absolute makes no sense to someone like me.  So any rational point I can come up will be nonsensical to you.

[Edit]  Missed an entire different rely, just going to add it here

[QUOTE]Greagoir certainly blames mages for bringing the world to the brink of ruin... (Magi Origin)[QUOTE]Greagoir is actually not a mage.  I was saying the other posted seems to believe Chantry made up how abominations are formed and the Circle Mage just decided to prepetulate that falsehood.

As for whether the Mages really did bring the world to the brink of ruin... no one can say they didn't.  No have real concret proof they did.  But the Greagoir still have faith and respect for Irwin should reflect greatly that the relationship between Templars and Mage isn't as black and white as some of you seem to believe.

[QUOTE]Let's see how one could evaluate the Chantry and the Circles: imprisoning and dehumanizing mages across Thedas through Circles that are under the sole authority of a religious organization that spreads hateful propaganda about mages, but uses them to fight their wars against the darkspawn and the Qunari. Probably the reason why mages keep resisting their oppressors and fighting to attain their freedom.[/QUOTE]Is it demonizing if it is true?  As for the Circle under the sole authority of the Chantry we already know the system is not as clear cut as such.  As I have pointed out above.  Not everything is all or nothing.  Gregoir even withheld the Extermination of Mages at Irwin's assurance.  If the structure is truly autocratic, and truly Anti-magic, why would Gregoir (who was picked to be the commander in chief of the Templer at the Circle, entrusted with the responsibility to call extermination) be put in that post?  So it is not unreasonable to believe that Chantry as an organization actually do NOT want to merely exterminate the mages.  That those in power may in fact be sympathetic to the mages plight and is doing what they believe is necessary with what their understanding of the world.

Is it perfect?  no.  But it is hardly the black and white view of all or nothing that was painted by some.
[QUOTE]The problem with that analysis is that it doesn't acknowledge how the Chantry conditions some mages to resort to the dark arts in order to survive against the templars trying to murder them.[/QUOTE] So you are essentially saying the Chantry is to blame for the weakness of character?  How many mages were good and did not resort to black magic to achieve success?  How many seems to live free lives?   How is the Chantry that condition these people to the dark arts?  Isn't it a weakness of their own personality?  The inability to accept personal responsibility.  The lack of will power to resist temptation?  or even just power hungry?  Are some mages abused by Templars?  Certainly.  Are all Templars evil? Certain not?  Are all mages evil? Nope, but are some mages evil? Certainly.  It is easy to point fingers but you have to point fingers at both sides.

Regardless to say "I wanted freedom from oppression so I resorted to mind control and made pact with demons"  doesn't that percisely the danger mages purpose?  Are you saying if Mages were in the wild there will not simply do those things anyways?  Some definitely will.  Probably not as many, but is it going to be enough?  Do you want to find out?  If Connar, who is not even a child, was not stopped, the Plight would have won.  Devastation would have sweept over all of Feralden.  Are you saying the theoretical "freedom" of those who resort to dark powers is more important than 1000x their number in normal people?

[QUOTE] It ignores how templars have killed innocent people (like the Magnificent D'Sims) under the mere assumption that they were a mage (and D'Sims wasn't a mage). It ignores how mages are taken from their families and tossed into a prison, given a life sentence because they have magical ability. If the Chantry was so good at preventing abominations, why were there so many Rites performed over the centuries? Why have mages risked their very lives for the small chance to be free? Why did Uldred's rebellion even transpire, where the abominations were too much for Greagoir and his templars to handle (which he actually admits to the Warden)?[/quote]It doesn't matter does it?  NO system is perfect.  Are you saying that more lives would ahve been saved if the Circle didn't exist?  Are you saying that mages would not have become abominations, blood mages, practice any and all sorts of power for personal gain?  Have you seen what the Tavinter Empire does?  That is your forshadowing of what *can* happen.  Are you saying it is a good thing?

As for Jail? how are they jailed?  Mages can travel - after they pass the harrowing.  They have personal property.  They are deprived of liberty only when they may be possible dangers of possession.  Is that not reasonable?  A templar is NOT suppose to harm mages that are not abominations, in fact Gregoir talked the templar in the circle tower that was tortmented by Abomination Blood Mage down.  You cannot fault the system for the abuse of a few.   Especially when those in positions of power, such as Gregoir, sets the right example.

Modifié par JamesX, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:19 .

[Huntress]

JamesX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Yes.  Keli is exhibit A and Wynne is exhibit B of exactly that sort.  In fact both (esp Wynne) turn off their brains whever the subject of the chantry comes up (and especially blood magic).

I actually think Wynn makes a lot of sense when it comes to blood mage and chantry.  Why is it you consider them turning their brains off when they take an opinion you don't agree with?

IanPolaris wrote...That wasn't why the UN was founded.  If it was, the Soviet Union never would have signed.

Soviet Signed because either they are involved or they are going to be completely cut out.  Your view of the world seems incredibly unsophesticated.  #1 rules about Countries, they exist as parasites upon each other.   Even if you claim they are symbiotic, symbiotic is just mutual parasitism.  It is true in biology and it is true in society.

IanPolaris wrote...

Penicillin was an accident with positive results and was a physical discovery in medicine with provable and verifiable benefits.  I have yet to see anything of the sort (or evidence at all) when it comes to the circle.

-Polaris

Yet Circle is an actual physical entity.  Previously your entire argument rest in that Circle is founded (in your opinion) on Chantry lies and ONLY because of Chantry lies.  My point is that whatever chantry said is irrelevant in the scope of the world because the Circle is an entity/organization and have effects beyond its origins.

As for verifiable evidence

We know as facts that Circle is independent in their own governance with Supervision by the Templars in the case of Abominations.  This is fact.  You can argue that they can be killed at any time, but you cannot deny that Irwin have demonstrated considerable independence.  Circle Mages can also travel across the world with or without out Templar Escorts.  By the very fact that the Circle was in Ostagar without an Templar Army present.  And later when you recruit circle's help and have the random encounter they are not travelling with Templar Escorts.

Whoaw your horses, the first thing you see when you hit Ostagar and start to look/find Alistar is mages+ templars. This templars WON'T let you pass. The mages at the encounters had a Job, to help Redcliff child,  the warden was going the same direction so no need for  templars.

Second: Some mages are allow to get married but they have to be very good and work for the chantry, you can find more info of one of them while looking for the Golem Shale, her master was a mage and he was married, chantry allow him to work on a demon that almost possed the child.

Is the chantry keeping mages down? yes, and I don't like it a bit, mages in DA are living/breathing people, they deserve respect as anyone. The chantry is following one doctrine, put down anyone who do NOT workship the maker, I pity the dwarves:crying:

Modifié par Huntress, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:20 .

[Addai]

JamesX wrote...
 Even though none of the Circle Member in DA:O have demonstrated such a dominated relation with the Chantry?

Ever talk to Keili?  Or Wynne?

ninja'ed, I see

Modifié par Addai67, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:25 .

[JamesX]

Huntress wrote...
Whoaw your horses, the first thing you see when you hit Ostagar and start to look/find Alistar is mages+ templars. This templars WON'T let you pass.

  You are offended that you cannot access an off-limit area?  I can't get into the King's tent either.  I don't feel like I am oppressed by the guards.  Or do you mean there are Templars in Ostagar?  I don't remember seeing a templar army.  And the rason the templar did not let you pass because it is dangerous to anyone to enter the area.  

Huntress wrote...
The mages at the encounters had a Job, to help Redcliff child,  the warden was going the same direction so no need for  templars.

... you never had the random encounter of the 2 apprentices + the mage elder combining spells did you?  That has nothing to do with the Warden going to save the child.  It happens even if you killing the child straight off the bat - without asking for the Circle's help.

Huntress wrote...
Second: Some mages are allow to get married but they have to be very good and work for the chantry, you can find more info of one of them while looking for the Golem Shale, her master was a mage and he was married, chantry allow him to work on a demon that almost possed the child.

IIRC No one knows the demon was there.  It was left long long ago.  I forgot aobut that mage.  So they can even live relatively normal lives even as member of the Circle/Chantry.

Huntress wrote...
Is the chantry keeping mages down? yes, and I don't like it a bit, mages in DA are living/breathing people, they deserve respect as anyone. The chantry is following one doctrine, put down anyone who do NOT workship the maker, I pity the dwarves:crying:

There is no perfect system. Every law designed to protect the masses keeps someone down.  Are you allowed to drive 100mph on the local streets?  no.  Because it is "unsafe" do you feel oppressed?  There are reasonable laws and unreasonable laws.

You are saying that the Chantry keeping the mage down is unreasonable.  Which I can understand why.  But you are forgetting that being a mage is inherently dangerous.  Even if you argue that Chantry made up the lies that only mages can be abominations.  Thus far the examples of the most powerful abomations we have seen in the game are both mages.  In fact even the warden would have been killed if the abomation that put him to sleep actually bothered to kill his physical form.  It is LUCK that the warden survived at all.

The extend of non-mage abomation is the little girl being possessed by cat.  It is not even known if that is possible because she is a unawakened mage (her bloodline is a mage bloodline) or that she is normal is not known.

Modifié par JamesX, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:31 .

[Addai]

JamesX wrote...
As for Jail? how are they jailed?  Mages can travel - after they pass the harrowing.  They have personal property.  They are deprived of liberty only when they may be possible dangers of possession.  Is that not reasonable?  A templar is NOT suppose to harm mages that are not abominations, in fact Gregoir talked the templar in the circle tower that was tortmented by Abomination Blood Mage down.  You cannot fault the system for the abuse of a few.   Especially when those in positions of power, such as Gregoir, sets the right example.

Mages can only travel when given permission.  That's prison work release.  They might have some knickknacks, but they don't even have privacy in the toilet or bedroom.  They can't hold title or have families of their own.  That's prison.

Greagoir and Irving are not as bad as some, but they still know every private detail of all the mages' lives- Irving brags about it- and exercise the power of life and death over people even on suspicion of being a blood mage.  And yes, the Circle itself is complicit.  It's not just the templars.  That's why the mage boon is a joke.  The Circle is the Chantry and vice versa.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:33 .